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run 4 wires out there. Green ground white nuetral black breaker space #1 110 hot red breaker space #2 110 hot Terminate into a proper box.
Use GFI protected sockets on every thing out there as per code. don't kill yourself.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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your gona burn the place down. you got a 150 AMP at the house, you got electric stove, electric clothes dryer, electric heat, hot water heater, a/c...........all of this requires 240V and most of them need 30-50 AMP BREAKERS. you got 150 ...you need to upgrade house to at least a 200 AMP SERVICE. 1st off. i listed 4 items above, say they all are running at the same time.........each has a 40 AMP BREAKER.....4 x 40 = 160 AMP............youre already overloading what you got. next thing is FIRE!!!!!! if you dont want to upgrade house service to 200 AMP..........you need to do a 2nd meter, to the shop and put in a 200 AMP BOX....and service there. you get a heater in the shop, lights, saws, are all gona require more draw on your already LIMITED HOUSE SERVICE. in reality electricity is not for NOVICES...get a REAL ELECTRICIAN.....he will tell you what iam sayin is true.....i had the county electrical inspector advise me as to what i would need and how to do it.....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Todd, What are you using the 240 for? You will need at least #10 wire for that depending on how many amps your largest tool/appliance will pull. You also have to allow for some voltage drop along a distance of 60'. Like Old Paint says, your breaker panel may already be maxed. Electric stove 50 amps, central heat 50 amps, clothes dryer, 20 or 30, water heater 30amps. Then you have all the other stuff like microwave, fridge, hair dryers, dish washer...it can add up fast. I would upgrade the panel like OP says. It will be cheaper in the long run because, if you get a separate meter, you will be paying the meterbase charge every month, for a separate meter.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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You'll want to put a sub-panel in the garage. In our area a homeowner that can pass a verbal test from an inspector on electrical code knowledge can pull a permit. There are then two inspections... rough in and final. This kind of work is serious stuff so if you don't want to void your insurance or worse .... have a professional do it. Cable for underground direct burial is a special grade or you can run wire in pvc conduit. Either way it's a good idea to lay a Pressure Treated board over the run for protection.
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to upgrade your EXISTING panel...will cost you as much as a seperate meter in the shop + you SHOULD HAVE AN ELECTRICIAN do this!!!!!! you can drop in a new service, to building if: your electrical service pole is near shop. you will have to put in (code required)down feed pipe, proper ground(code requirments)new 200 AMP box with breakers(home depot or lowes,get copper lugs NOT ALUMINUM in box)these go for $120-$200.00. dont scrimp on the box and get on that will be able to get breakers for in 10-15 yrs. you will need down wire(to go in pipe, again code requirements). you really need to call code enforcement in you area....they give free info..as to what you NEED TO DO...to comply...ELECTRICITY IS NOT TO BE PLAYED WITH.....it aint like fixin a water leak. water leak, if not fixed right will just dump water on ya....ELECTRIC NOT DONE RIGHT WILL KILL YOU or leave you without a BUILDING!!!!!!
[ January 10, 2008, 03:08 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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This isn't something you do without a licensed electrician.
Go with the separate service, Todd. I looked into doing something similar to your plan and found I was so much better off going new for about the same cost. Having the business metered separate from the house gives you a better grip on what it's costing you every month to run your equipment and makes keeping track easier.
It's also good to know that the home and shop can't adversely affect each other. We're currently having some repairs done on the house electrical and, in days past, it would have shut down the shop as well.
my 2 cents... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Good advice guys - and there is NO way I would attempt that myself.....I'm not risking my life and limb over something I don't feel comfortable (or capable) of doing.
I have a friend that is a Master Electrician...and if he doesn't have time to do it, I'll just hire somebody else.
I think I'll still opt for a home extended service though...because:
1. Already have the pvc conduit for electrical and a separate conduit for phone already trenched in and buried at approximately 24" deep - from my house to the garage. This is deeper than code.
2. Have a electrical box already installed and piped in to the pvc inside the garage.
3. The garage isn't really a shop per-se as it is extra storage for lawn equipment, etc.....and personal use.
I'll probably pull the wires and definitely let an electrician do the rest....
Thanks guys.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Hiya Todd, I spent about a grand 2 years ago to upgrade from 100 amp to 200 amp service. This included a new panel and installing a couple of sconces too. Since the cost of materials, especially copper, has gone up dramatically in the last couple of years, it will probably run ya a little more. Yer on your own with all the other info. I don't mess with electric
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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If you're not comfortable doing it, I would get an electrician to do it....make sure he's licensed and insured.
If he buys the wire, make sure he uses adequate size. When the well company drilled my well, they were going to put down #12 wire from the panel on a drop of about 70'. I made them use #10. Running #12 wire for a 1 hp 220v pump is not enough.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
For my shop the electrician ran a 60AMP subpanel. The service line is in conduit. We did upgrade to a 200 Amp service in the house, we have a two family house. I want to say it was about 600.00 to run the 60Amp service and 1000.00 to do the upgrade. back in 1988. My guess would be 2500.00 - 3500.00 today for upgrade, and sub pannel.
I run a Miller 210Amp MiG welder at its highest settings and it handles it. That's a 240 volt unit. I also run a 110 volt air compressor all the time it has a 1 1/2 HP motor. I hope this info helps.
PS these are Mass. prices and could be a little higher than your area.
[ January 10, 2008, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Dana Stanley ]
posted
Well guys, I just talked to an certified electrician, and he said I really didn't need to upgrade to a 200 amp house panel....
He said that if I'm just running lights, outlets, and some exterior lights...that I'd be fine.
He said that he thought it would be a rare occasion where too many things would be running at the same time.
I have gas water heater, gas furnace, electric washer/dryer, electric stove, and central air. Other typical appliances such as micro, tv, fridge, freezer.
He said something about 30 amps out to the garage and I thought he said #10 wire or something like that....
The only thing I might run in the garage is lights and an outlet on occasion...maybe a small portable Ryobi table saw rarely. Exterior lights on the garage too.
I have 2 circuit spots left in my house box...he said that's no big deal, I ought to be fine...he said you can always upgrade that box to a 42 circuit box which is the most common now for 150 amp service he says....
Does this jive with you guys, or make you nervous? I won't be running any kind of welding, or heavy equipment in this garage as it's for personal use/storage mostly.
He said if I was going to run air compressors, lots of woodworking equipment, etc, then I might want to consider going to a 200 amp service.
What do you think?
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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If I were you I would pay whatever to upgrade to 200. In December our shop caught fire due to CERTIFIED electricians overloading our electrical box. By the grace of God I happened to be at the shop at the time. Still burned up all of the electrical in the place, burned down the stairway and part of a wall. Not to mention put us way behind in the workload. All these old buildings are connected and it could have burned down the entire block had it happened at night when no one is here. Spend the money now and then there are no worries or regrets later.
posted
Ouch Barb, that had to hurt! Hopefully, everyone was ok and your insurance covered it.
Todd, Just for kicks and giggles, get a second opinion. I don't think your friend is steering you wrong though. If you didn't have gas, I would comment otherwise though. Even though you have no current plans to do anything more with the space, plans can change. Personally, I would do the service upgrade and run more power into the shop. Do it once and do it right. If for no other reason, the service upgrade and a sub-panel in the garage can (in theory) add more value to your property if or when you decide to sell it. I think a workshop sounds more impressive than a garage
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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i have a RADIAL ARM SAW....got it from a guy for free....because he pluged it into a LESS THEN REQUIRED AMP electrical outlet. he pluged it in at his house and it just HUMMMMED!!! figured motor was fried. left it at my shop, then when i closed it he wouldnt come get his BURNED UP MOTOR SAW. i took it home, and plugged it into a 110V POWER OUTLET, that i installed with a 20 AMP BREAKER....and it ran just fine..... induction motors such as these and air compressors DRAW....a full 20 AMP to make the motor run, after it starts, it can run on 1/2 that. so doin a 60 amp out there is ok with what you plan to do TODAY.... but are you always gona have ONLY lights and a saw....out there? if so do what the electrican freind said....
[ January 10, 2008, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Thank you OP...good points. I will take that into serious consideration. I won't do anything for a few months most likely...and I agree it's better to have more options than less.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Todd, I would have to agree with all the above Posters. If your already partialy there Just finish it off with a 200 Service Miniumum. When we built our Shop at the house which Was our main location for the Signshop for a few years. I opted to put in a 400 Amp Service to a Sub then split off that with 2-200s One for the House and one for the shop.
Granted I did do it myself so my cost was around $800 but I had already Trenched under the shop before pouring the Foundation. Now if you want to talk about our new shop now. 2-400 amp 3 phase services. I really love my Electric bill every month.
posted
If you're running a small table saw and some lights, I would say #10 wire would be enough. Is the table saw 110V? For the breaker, Don't use a higher amp breaker than you need. You want the breaker to do it's job and trip in the event of an overload.
But each 220V appliance is supposed to have its own dedicated circuit. I would use a larger wire than #10 or two separate #10 wires at that distance, expecially if you are going to have 110 and 220V receptacles.
[ January 11, 2008, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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You would undoubtedly be fine to go the minimum route, but if you go over kill now you won't be limited as to what you can do out there.
You could watch one too many episodes of Pimp My Ride and decide you want to restore some old cars. Then you may want to weld, or run an air compressor.
[ January 11, 2008, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Dana Stanley ]
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