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I've got the opportunity to bid on a new development project on a referral from a very good client. The builder of this new development is well known to take bid packages and drawings and take those to companies that haven't bid in an effort to get the lowest price. Compounding that, the owners of the development company already deal with a well established, out of state sign company that has done all their work to date. All the sites look the same, save for color changes and minor details. My dilemma is that I don't want to "steal" other companies work just because the builder wants me to "keep it local". They want a consistant image, and I would certainly be ticked if someone stole work from me that already had a proven track record with other developments. But, at the same time I've got bills to pay... Am I just being bull-headed and should spec the job? Or defer to my concious and be able to sleep by passing the job? I need more eggnog....
Rick
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Hiya Rick, Just as the builder is trying to do the right thing, I think you should too. Ask the builder if they own the artwork for the signs and explain the copyright issue. If the builder owns the art, you'll have no problems reproducing it.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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That's my thinking, Si. The development company builds large scale apertment complexes. The builder is in-house for the company, and is in charge of sourcing local labor for the actual physical building part of things. Signs were/are always provided, as far as I can tell, from one source. Whether the development company owns the designs to it...I doubt it, since each development is slightly different, though the design elements are the same, right down to typestyles and shapes. It's not so much about the sign company owning the artwork as much as owning the identity of the developments. I hope that's coming across correctly! I just feel 'funny' about using others folk's work. I also have a funny feeling that if I do get the bid, and the signs are to reflect past projects, that the builder will come back to me and say 'well, it's not exactly like so-and-so, can you change it'?
R
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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It sounds like the project manager is "required" to get multiple bids for the project - even though they have no intention of using anyone other than the firm that did all their other work. Even if you gave them a lower bid, they would find some reason to disqualify it. Or, they are hoping to use your bid to check prices against the other firm. Either way, the bidding process wastes your time and you get nothing to show for it.
I just had a similar situation. Three local businessmen have partnered to open a restaurant. One of them is a past client of mine, of the other two, one is a notorious (but very wealthy) cheapskate, the third I don't know much about. The past client called recently and asked me to bid on signs for the place, stating that they were also taking bids from a company in Hartford. He then faxed over several drawings, which were obviously created by a sign company - mediocre designs, nothing awful, just not very imaginative. I saw through this BS in about five seconds - they were shopping another company's designs. So I put a fairly high bid on it and faxed it back - as expected, I didn't hear from them again. I spent very little time on it; given the history of at least one of the partners, I'd have had issues with getting paid anyway.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I never want to undermine another. Now, I make a living from art and design which everyone knows is extremely competitive. If you have worldly responsiblities (mortgage, Ins., car payments, etc)you must walk the line of moving forward WITH integrity. It is not an "either/or" as much as going for the middle road. KNOW you have no ill intent (if thats honestly true)and move forward in that grey area of NOT HAVING TO KNOW the results as much as being clear of your personal APPROACH (attitude)and let the results fall where they may. I have been getting work from local people who have gone to the local big company and feel obligated to it but they are not getting what I can deliver as far as responding quickly and an artist's POV (these are their words). This is a stretch for my clients as they have no ill intent either, but they have a need that isn't being met and I can supply it and thats the bottomline! The personal part is HOW you do, not WHAT you do. It is easy to go black or white with these things, but there is so much more in the grey areas. Heck some of the greatist painters are great because of their ability to negotiate those subtle grey areas. I just got another client because of what I can bring compared to the clients past business. I am not trying to TAKE, and I will show what I have and what I give them. It is up to the client to decide. Honest competition breeds excellence, it births inspiration while dishonest competition breeds mediocrity, greed, etc... all that most of us can't stand. This sounds like a great review for you to get more clear about for yourself. This is getting to long.
We run into similar situations from time to time, and we handle them differently depending on our relationship with the contractor or developer.
If the developer is shopping around other sign company's drawings, is it wrong to assume that the sign company has already been paid for those drawings? I don't do shop drawings, specs or renderings for free.
If the other company's info is on the drawings, give them a call to confirm that the developer has purchased the specs.
If they are showing you other companies bids, that is not a great business practice, but not really un-ethical.
If you bid the project at your rates, what difference does it make what the other company bid? If you bid lower just to get the work and can't make a reasonable profit, why bother?
Doing work and not making a profit makes no sense in this situation.
My experience is that price may the biggest factor on a particular job, but will NOT be the biggest factor in keeping a client.
If you want the job, bid your lowest price while still making a profit. If you want the client, bid what feel is reasonable and provide service, reliability, and show your talent.
If you can't or don't want to do either, walk away..... that's how I would look at it.
-------------------- Tom & Sharon Giampia Creative Image Design Port Chester, NY Posts: 285 | From: Port Chester | Registered: Mar 2001
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"the design elements are the same, right down to typestyles and shapes."
I think the definition of what could be considered "artwork" applies here.
If it's a simple matter of using fonts and shapes, I would submit a bid at my normal prices and see where the chips fall. Regardless of how many apartments they may be building, the only thing certain is that you're bidding on THIS job. Considering the track record of them price checking, there's no guarantee they will be back again later.
If it includes any kind of "original" art like a logo or a stylized font, that's when the question of copyrights and permission is raised. Ideally, the customer owns it already and can use it as they see fit, but without workable files, let them know up front there may be some design time involved to recreate it. You'll find most will do the leg work and obtain the files for you to save a few bucks.
There are any number of reasons that the contractor may be looking for someone local. Shorter turn around, reduced shipping fees, less long distance cell phone charges...who knows. The bottom line is that they did give you a call, and at that point it's not so much a matter of ethics as it is business sense. The minute they start shopping around, the competition opens up and they are fair game. If they didn't shop, we'd all have the same customers forever and no new ones.
Such is life in the capitalist marketplace... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Good points, all. I just called the sign company that has provided the builder/developers work in the past and, in fact, they (the developer) have never paid for the actual design of the sign packages. The only thing that the builder "owns" is their own logo, which is a very small part of the overall design. With that, I can't bring myself to offer a bid on someone else's package. It just doesn't seem right to me. Now, if the developer is open to a different design package...that's a whole 'nother ball of wax!
Rick
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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