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If someone requests a sign and we do the sign and basically they want to use that sign as there new logo, how does that work. I,ve already got the sign designed and givin' him a quote for less than the original price due to needing the job (being as it is winter).I just don't want to get screwed with him now taking my design when he hasn't paid for it. Can I say on the invoice logo use for sign purpose only or is that out of the question and I have to eat this design.
-------------------- Jonathan Harvey Harvey's Signs and Designs 214 N. Main Newton,KS 67114 316-283-2424 (no telemarketers) Posts: 63 | From: Newton, KS | Registered: May 2006
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Yeah I would say that, and also say all artwork remains the property of the artist unless other wise noted.(not in those words of course) If they want to use that design on other applications, they need to either come to you to have it done, or buy the rights to the design off of you. That's how we do it anyway.
The most important part is that you need to inform your clients of this policy before hand to avoid confusion. In some cases they might be willing to go through the process of having a logo developed before you do the sign work. But you have to sell it as being beneficial to them, even though it might cost more for them in the beginning. It will pay off for them later.
-------------------- Joe Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, IL 61764 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 538 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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This issue has been dicussed on here more than once. You might want to do a search on the subject. In my opinion, if you have designed a logo for a customer, then you need to charge him for said logo. If you have just designed a sign, it's his, the sign design charge should be part of the price of the sign. Bottom line, you have to get paid for what you do. There is a certain amount of designing that goes into any sign, even a pool rule sign or a set of magnetics. When we spend hours designing a layout for a simple 4x8, we are shooting ourselves in the foot.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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Jonathan, My only experience has been on a Red hot chili man character I designed who was pretty cool.I incorporated him in a wall mural scene and made a 4' cut out relief character on mdo for inside the restaurant display.The new restauranteur had apparently inherited some money and blew it all and could not pay his help or purveyors and the doors closed.The 4' display chili was returned to me.I gave him to a friend who owned a high end art gallery.He after a while traded or sold him to a neighboring business who sold hot sauce.Hot sauce man decides to sell bronze art to try and compete with the neighbor.High end art guy has a sense of humor and opens a hot sauce store across the street.I painted three of my chili men holding up a coffee cup for new store.Hot sauce guy came to my place to inform me they registered my artwork to incorporate on their own hot sauce labels.I said you can't do that because he's mine and not for sale and you didn't give me any compensation.Just because you buy a mickey mouse t-shirt doesn't mean you own mickey mouse.My wife overheard and ran out the door to beat some sense into them.They ran away.Hot sauce guy has his attorney send cease and desist papers to my friend so he'll have to take down his sign i made for him. I then sold and had the papers notarized the rights to chili man to my buddy who owned the gallery.He sent off for a copyright from the fed govt.Bad neighbor hot sauce guy hangs a sign around chili cut out saying they are original owners and he was stolen by my buddy and puts him on the sidewalk for all to see.This all seems comical and surreal to me but my little guy is all over town.Bottom line is after gallery guy paid for and got copyright his attorney said it is easier to wrongfully convict a person of homicide than it is to show damages on a copyright suit like this.My gallery owner friend relocated in another state and opened his business there. He told me he likes his new neighbors.Now i charge for my logo design and tell my customers they are welcome to use it as they will.
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Hi Johnathan That is an awkward spot, and it usually never ends very well going after design fees after-the-fact. I usually espouse the virtues of good design up front when selling to customers. We tell them a sign is ineffective unless designed well, and delivers the most value for their dollar to invest in good design. We then require a healthy design deposit (proportional to the sign order) up front. That way we're covered even if they walk with the design and have it made cheaper somewhere else. It's irritating to know some one is using your design for free. A few years back we refused to release a customer's sign design for a logo. We explained to them that they got the basic design package to keep costs down. It soured the whole job and I believe it cost us future sign orders in that town. Maybe let this one go and tweak your policies to get paid for design work on future orders. Hope this helps.
If I don't charge for the design up front, I might as well forget about it, because around here they will very likely come back and want to use what I put on the sign as a logo. It's hard to tell them at that point that I'm the one that owns the logo and they'll have to pay big bucks for it.
These southern Alabamians would not accept the theory that they paid me to do a sign, they own it, it has their name on it.. but somehow I have their name copyrighted in the form I put it on their sign.
They'd be like "You mean you copyrighted the design of MY sign?!? What are you, some kind of con artist?"
The best I can do usually at that point is charge them about $50 - $100 to give them some 'slicks' in different sizes.. and several cd's with their design in different formats. They don't mind paying for that.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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-------------------- Jonathan Harvey Harvey's Signs and Designs 214 N. Main Newton,KS 67114 316-283-2424 (no telemarketers) Posts: 63 | From: Newton, KS | Registered: May 2006
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Registered is a step below copyright.It's a cryin' shame when you need an attorney to do your signs/art.Apparently both hot sauce guy and I were less informed than you.Thanks for the heads up Stephen.Legal question for you... If you can document you created an image at a documented time and someone tries to trademark that as their own without permission from the creator at a later time, Does the payment of money for a trademark supercede such documentation?
-------------------- Darcy Baker Darcy's Signs Eureka Springs. AR. Posts: 1169 | From: Eureka Springs, AR | Registered: Nov 2007
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First is the written form of an Idea. Next is the fact of registering that Idea.
The next two steps are tricky. Industrial copyright is working with a patent to improve the workings of that item.
A telephone is a telephone.... but industrial designs allow you to place a different cover/shape/design on the base of the patent owned by Mr Bell.
Copyright in the next step shows what the new design may look like. But anyone can redesign around this idea.
Next is Trademark.. It can be in text form or Artwork.
Biggest example is MacDonalds with the golden Arch or the text words "I'm loving it!"
Last but not least is the Patent for something. It has to be all new design from the idea to the prototype.
Remember even a Robertson screw is held with a patent and you need a signed license to use it for commercial product.
Like you said you may buy the Mickey shirt but look into it and see that it is trademarked. This means it is not to be copied or redesigns in any form without written permission.
[ December 13, 2007, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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We generally make the logo a part of the beginning conversation with a customer. It makes things so much easier. We will say something like: "If you have a logo we can work with it, or we can create something new. Logos start out at about $300".
If they show interest in a logo, we discuss what they have in mind, and give them a quote based on the type of logo they want. Our high end is about $500, which we are slowly increasing.
A few customers will say they don't want a logo, but then they will describe something that looks like a logo. We will tell them it will be billed as a logo if we do it as they describe. I don't recall any problems we've had. Some customers will decide they don't want to proceed, but I don't recall any bad feelings associated with the conversations.
We probably leave a lot on the table, but at least we don't resent the customer at the end of the day. So far, keeping logo design and sign design separate hasn't caused any problems.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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