posted December 06, 2007 05:54 PM
Well, business is growing so much that I may be in the market for another thermal printer. I was looking at getting another Edge-FX but then I saw where a Summa DC-4sx was only $12,500 and a DC-4 was $20k and it got me thinking ..... hmmmmmm.
I think what has bothered me most on these wider machines, Summa DC series and Gerber Maxx, is the quality of the stitching.
Has it improved any and just how noticeable is it?
Thanks.
BTW, I'm still not in the market for in inkjet. The just can't do the kind of work I need to have done.
.
[ December 06, 2007, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted December 06, 2007 07:13 PM
Yes Glenn, I've got a DC3 and it has its limits too. The stitching or banding is a small issue at times. I don't think there is the "Perfect Machine" out there, but I don't laminate or have to insert the different color ribbons like the Edge machine. You can simply press the start button and it prints and contour cuts. I spray Frog Juice on it most of the time.
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted December 06, 2007 07:26 PM
Well, its the stitching issue that has me most concerned. The last thing I need is an oversized Roland ColorCamm.
I'm sure that printing full-color images can help hide any discrepancies, but I print a lot of spot color stuff and I'm concerned that a dark band or line where the prints overlap will make the OEM decals I produce for some of my clients will be unacceptable.
Have you had any issues or one of those "I wish I had known" moments?
posted December 06, 2007 08:34 PM
Glenn, Former screen printer here. Nothing will come close to what you can do with screen printing. These machines don't replace, they compliment. I did manage to shut down my screen printing and replace with a UV flatbed, solvent inkjet and a DC4SX. My suggestion is to use a file from your most picky customer, your easiest to please customer and run their files and see for yourself what you can sell. I personally wouldn't count on running a business from a thermal machine but it is the bees knees to have it in-house.
-------------------- Ron Helliar Marysville Sign 11807 51st Ave. NE Marysville, WA 98271 (360) 659-4856 Posts: 263 | From: Marysville, WA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted December 07, 2007 04:22 PM
Hey Glenn! How's it going? While I most certainly do not want to start a topic war here, and I am no athority on printing, I'm curious to know why inkjet printing is not in your favor? I too have been using an Edge for the past 10 years and still use it very much (I just sent it off today for print head replacement). I considered the large format thermal printers but was a bit skeptical about banding. Last May I purchased the 54" VersaCamm. It is no speed demon by any means but the prints are absolutely stunning and a bit more durable than I expected. Of course I have a laminator and use it when the job demands it. There are a few spot colors that are difficult but I've found that if I refer to the pantone chart I printed, I can find most colors fairly close, except for orange. I know it's hard to beat thermal spot colors, but overall I'm pleased.
posted December 07, 2007 05:01 PM
I print a lot of OEM decals for various manufacturers and often they want colors like white, gold metallic and silver metallic printed on clear. I get very little call for process work. Its just a niche that I've been able to carve out for myself.
I've got a couple other competitors in town who are using an inkjet and they're busy fighting to see who can be the cheapest.
Plus I have a selling point that other inkjet users don't have. With a laminated inkjet print, most can only guarantee "up to 5 years" against fading on a vertical surface whereas with a laminated thermal I can guarantee a full 5 years on both vertical and horizontal.
Back when I bought my first Edge back in 1998, I lettered a client's van. It was a full color tricked-out vinyl lettering job and I laminated it with Gerber's UVguard vinyl. I just saw the van on the road again yesterday and the print still looks brand new with the exception of some of the vinyl starting to lift inside some of the body panel creases. The customer has been one of my best advertisers and has sent a lot of customers my way because of how well the lettering has held up.
There are some drawbacks to using thermal. I can't print a full color banner. But then again, I'm not interested in selling a 3x8 full color banner for $75.00 like one shop here is doing.
posted December 07, 2007 06:01 PM
Flirting with danger there. Gerber only warrants 2 of their foils for 5 years, and only vertically. The rest are warranteed 3 & 4 years, also on vertical surfaces. The process colors are only 3 years. Even then, Gerber phrases it as "can expect". The foil slection guide that i'm using doesn't even appear to have the word 'warranty' on it.
Don't get me wrong, I still use ours for all 1-2 color small jobs. A good portion of those we still laminate. In fact I had a request yesterday that we start laminating some decals that go in some buses because the passsenger's are rubbing the printing off with their hands over time.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 910 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted December 07, 2007 06:35 PM
Bruce, that's true for unlaminated prints. But with Gerber's UVguard overlaminate, there is no danger (Pink excluded). I can and do guarantee a minimum of 5 years on laminated prints. Its how I picked up one of my biggest clients. In nearly 10 years I've never had a failure.
posted December 08, 2007 03:46 AM
Glenn, I appreciate your response and respect it. I know what works for one shop may not work for another. Here in South Louisiana, no one really cares about life expectancies, it's all about the quality of the said print design and the service. When the economy is good here as it is now, no one cares if the print lasts 1 or three years. While everyone else in the country is upset because of gas prices, we embrace it (Sorry folks, that's our local economy!). It's just enteresting to hear how other shops accross this nation are faring.
posted December 09, 2007 06:07 PM
I have to agree with Bryan. Sometimes it's seems like trying to make something last 5+ years doesn't really help sales. We've had our inkjet for nearly 5 years and have yet to have one job come back. We've had our Edge for a little over 6 years with it's share of faded jobs, but have never had one customer come back wanting it re-done at our expense. Most of our Edge jobs are consistent reorder jobs and are usually replacements for the old faded out decals. Our customers really don't seem to expect their $2.00 decals to last a lifetime and quite honestly, I'd rather they not.
If we have to give a warranty, I'm gonna stick to the MFG's warranty instead of my own. I could offer them the greatest warranty in the world but when push comes to shove, all they are worried about is what it's going to cost them 'right now'.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 910 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted December 09, 2007 07:53 PM
Well, I can understand. But it depends on what type of sales you're talking about be it a license plate, a digital wrap or an industrial air compressor.
Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of luxury with many of my OEM clients who require specific durability/longevity requirements. In this case, inkjets simply don't fit the bill.
I've done several inkjet vs. thermal tests over the past several years. And in every instance, thermal beat inkjet.
If I were doing a lot of banners and digital wraps, I would certainly consider an inkjet over a thermal. But when my client requires a 5 year minimum and it must stand up to oils and acids along with being in the sun all day long, I have to go to a cast vinyl/thermal print/tedlar overlaminate. Its the only thing I know will work based on nearly 10 years of my own personal experience.
posted December 10, 2007 06:35 AM
Hey Glenn, we have a DC4 here. The lines aren't that bad. You can see them but they are usually very hard to pick out especially if your decal has more than one color. Black is almost impossible to see the line. Full color graphics with high resolution are very hard to pick out the lines. I would suggest getting the DC4 over the SX model. Don't want to regret not getting the big one 3 months down the road. And for $20k you can't beat the price.
-------------------- TJ Duvall Diamond State Graphics, Inc.
New Castle, DE 19720 Posts: 396 | From: New Castle,Delaware | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted January 12, 2008 09:44 PM
Glenn, did you make a decision or purchase yet? I'm going to look into the DC4sx. I'm wondering if my Omega software will run it. I'm editing to add: I doubt Omega would run it but could I still design in Omega and have a plug-in or something. I'm so used to Omega I'd hate to have to change to something else other than maybe Illustrator. Edit again: I found this on Summa's website: "Plug-ins allow print or print-and-cut operations to be performed from within CorelDRAW® and Adobe® Illustrator® for Windows".
posted January 13, 2008 02:43 PM
I haven't made a decision yet, Chuck.
I found out a couple weeks ago that one of my biggest clients is closing up its New Hampshire branch and consolidating it into its main office in Indiana. The purchasing agent I've been dealing with for the past 20+ years has decided not to move with the company and is taking an early retirement.
Its kinda screwed up my plans because they spent over $30k each year with us.
Shane at Summa has been a big help. He had me to send him some of our files so he could print them for us. The stitching on solid colors was passable and virtually invisible on photos. The only draw back I have at this point is that my 3rd biggest client requires a specific shade of blue on his vehicles (Gerber's Intense Blue). I showed them the available color choices from Summa and they rejected them. If ZeroNine made foils for the DC printers, it wouldn't be an issue but they don't at this point.
posted January 14, 2008 01:48 PM
Yeah Glenn that would be nice if ZeroNine made foils. but the people there that I have talked to said they are having trouble replicating the chip that goes with the OEM foils.
-------------------- TJ Duvall Diamond State Graphics, Inc.
New Castle, DE 19720 Posts: 396 | From: New Castle,Delaware | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted January 15, 2008 06:35 AM
I don't think the ZeroNine thing would keep me from getting the machine though. You can produce "Spectratone" colors just like with the edge. This way you can achieve more than just the "standard" colors. Summa has a Ribbon Color guide similar to the Gerber Spectratone book. The only problem with that is that it looks like they got tired while they were making it and didn't include all the possible color combinations. The book has I think 5 pages of colors. I made a file in illustrator and it should be at least 25 pages of colors if you use all the possible combinations. One day when I finally get all the colors I am going to make a book with all the colors.
-------------------- TJ Duvall Diamond State Graphics, Inc.
New Castle, DE 19720 Posts: 396 | From: New Castle,Delaware | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted January 15, 2008 06:48 AM
Spectratone is something Shane (Summa) is going to look into for me.
However, I have some misgivings about it from a production/costs viability issue.
And while it may be possible to recreate Gerber's Intense Blue using Summa's limited color pallet, there are some issues that come to mind. For one, I'm doubling my foil costs. I'm doubling my production time. I'm doubling the wear and tear on the print head.
On some projects, this may not be much of an issue. However, in other cases, it could be a big factor. It all depends on the type of work the machine is being used for.
Just something I have to consider keeping in mind my past experience with the ColorCamm and the Edge.
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