posted
I had a conversation with someone who thought he was going to be my customer a few days ago. It went something like this....
Hi, how can I help you?
We are opening a business downtown and we need to order some signs.
Great! What did you have in mind?
Well, we were thinking about some of those plastic letters.
Okay (get out the Gemini catalog) What is this going to say? How large? What color?
It's going to say "Shear Elegance Salon". My wife is from England and she wants Old English letters. She gave me this sketch she made(shows me a computer printout with all-cap Old English on an arch.) We decided that they should be at least twelve inches high and bright red, 'cause we want this to be real easy to read.
Well, Old English would be alot more readable if you use upper and lower case. What color is the wall you want to put these on?
I'm gonna paint the building green, 'cause my wife's mom is from Ireland and she really likes green.
Really? I think bright red all-cap Old English wouldn't be your best choice here.
Yeah, well, that's what she wants. She went to beauty school and she really understands this stuff, so that's what we wanna do. We just want you to order the letters for us.
(By now I'm beginning to realize this isn't going to be a portfolio job) Okay, if you really want these letters, I can order them for you. (I pull out a calculator) The letters are going to be $380, plus installation.
Oh, you charge extra for that?
Yes. Installation is billed at $85 per hour with a two-hour minimum.
Oh, jeeze, that's a lot. I'll get my brother to help me put these up. Just order the letters.
Fine. (I fill out a work order) I'll need a deposit of $190 for that.
Oh, wow, I didn't bring any checks. My wife handles all that. Tell you what, just order these, and I'll pay you when I pick 'em up.
I'm sorry, I really can't order anything without a deposit. Do you want to come back later?
I don't have time to come in later. Just order these and I'll pay you when they come in. How soon can you get these? We want to be open this weekend. (It's now Wednesday).
I can't get them that quickly. Gemini letters take about a week to ten days. And again, I CANNOT order them without a deposit.
Oh, jeeze, they gonna take that long? Can't you just get them ordered for me? I don't wanna use my own cash for a deposit right now; we got a lot of expenses here getting open. I don't know why this is such a problem; we're gonna need more signs later, and I wanna be able to use you for all my stuff.
So let me see if I got this straight. You don't want to use YOUR money to order these, so you want ME to use MY money? Tell me again why I should finance your business; I'm still a little confused here.
Well, I don't know why this is such a big deal. Just order the danm things so I can get going here.
Tell you what I'm gonna do. (I tear up the work order) I'm gonna tell you to have a nice day, and you're gonna go waste somebody else's time and money. Okay?
....now, maybe some of you would have handled that differently. Or not. Whatever.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
My daughter (Jessie) says you're awesome, Cam! (I think you handled that perfectly.)BTW, she worked for a hairdresser with a similar attitude recently...briefly.
-------------------- Nancie W. Phillips White Dove Painting Studio 74 Dacula Road, Dacula, GA 30019 678-887-3339
posted
We Live in a weird Universe but some folks miss the landing strip.
Jack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
LOL, I knew what was coming when I read the word "salon". Too bad she isn't going to have some realtors working out of her salon too. You did good Cam; perfect ending.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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I think you handled it well Cam. I don't think of these people as idiots however... just not educated in the methods and prices of our product.
In my business I often get people dropping in or phoning in regard to a three dimensional pieces. Everyone loves them... and would like one too.
As you can imagine no one understands the work involved and the subsequent price I have to charge. And its understandable. How could they know? These folks are used to going to Walley world and picking something off the shelf which is mass produced at the cheapest possible price. Our product is vastly different than that... but how would they know? I find even in dealing with professionals in the business they often have no idea of what our product may be worth.
I get the occasional person who simply wants something and hasn't really thought it through. They get right into the imagining process with no discussion about price... inevidably the bells start ringing in my head. I've learned to listen and listen well to those bells for often this discussion IS a waste of their time AND mine if we aren't on the same planet... never mind on the same ballfield.
I immediately stop the proceedure and ask them the kind of budget they have in mind. If its mere hundreds of dollars where thousands or tens of thousands need to be discussed I gently let them know there's not much we can do for them. Sorry. And I truly am.
If they clear the first hurdle and aren't immediately scared off its time to discuss the design costs... again often in the thousands of dollar range for a fair sized project. This scares off a whole bunch more people in a hurry for they had no idea of what is involved.
Then theres the discussion of time lines... it all takes time and if the project is large or we have a big project underway it will mean they have to wait a while... maybe even take a number AND pay a deposit to hold their place in line...
Once again my lineup of prospective customers thins down a little. In the process I've educated a whole bunch of people... some incredulously. They had no idea of what we do or how and what it might cost. Now they have a little better ideea... without me spending a LOT of time doing so.
The customers who are left are the ones I want... literally one in a thousand. I'm not mad at the other 999... they just aren't my customers.
I try not to stereotype customers... I recently did an expensive sign for a hairdresser... and have done some pretty cool projects for a realtor as well.
Then again, there's the other 998 people we didn't get to work for in Yarrow...
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I can understand the customer asking most of those questions, but when they don't want to pay a deposit for a custom order, I have to question either their intelligence, or their integrity. I think it was handled well.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
In some countries and cultures this kind of "negotation" is acceptable I guess. Not here though, not at least in my shop. I would have shown him the door too. For me this guy was a con and a bully and not even a very good one. The nature of the business is immaterial. I'm not sure I'd call him an idiot, but if I'd taken the job, I'd know who the idiot was. I would have had some choice thoughts as he walked out of the door, but I'd move on and feel very good about myself and the way I conducted myself. Like Dan, I like to quickly qualify the customer financially and timeline wise. Nice people who I can't help will get some recommendations or even a referral to someone else. Sounds like this guy didn't deserve anymore than he got from you Cam.
posted
This was actually a much longer, more annoying and fruitless conversation - for the purposes of clarity I boiled it down quite a bit. I could have spent all day writing about how I tried to explain to this clown why red, all-caps Old English was not going to be effective or readable on a green background; or why letters the size he wanted were not going to fit on his fascia. I would have got about the same level of comprehension if I'd been talking to my dog. By the time we got to the point of his not wanting to pay a deposit, I'd already pretty much decided he had the brains god gave a turnip. He kept repeating that his wife "knows what she's doing" in designing this mess, but he wouldn't consider my suggestion that he bring her in so I could explain things to her.
I could see the future here - had I ordered those letters without a deposit, he'd have 1. Not ever come back and left me stuck with them, or... 2. Tried to get a discount, claimed I'd promised to do the installation, or some other money shenanigans, or.... 3. Discovered that the design wouldn't work, blamed me, and demanded a refund. Since none of those outcomes were anything close to what I would want to deal with, saying good bye, good luck was in my own best interest.
As he left he kept saying "I don't understand." Truer words were never spoken.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Within five minutes only I would have asked the background colour! 'Pale Olive to Forest Green'? and pulled it up on the screen.
Next in old English I would taken one letter and gave it some embossing and highlite and placed in the middle of the screen.
Using at least 300dpi or more as he sat and watched.
Next I ask him to get out of the chair and step way back and squent his eyes and tell myself if he can really read that single letter! And imagine if all the combinations of letters for the text will give her customers a headache!
Because it sure as hell is giving myself one just thinking about it.
[ November 28, 2007, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Hey, you're really mellowing Cam - I expected a lot worse when I started reading this....
All in all, I think you did well...I too, probably wouldn't have referred to this guy as an idiot....a jerk maybe - for wanting you to spend your money financing his sign....but not an idiot.
An idiot is someone who is intellectually deprived...this guy obviously knew what he was doing - he wanted you to spring for the parts up front. That way, if he found something cheaper or decided to go a different route, or maybe just wanted to buy some time to collect up some funds - he could leave YOU holding the bag if it didn't work out.
I'd probably call him shrewd.
An idiot is someone that launches fireworks at moving cars or jumps on cinema seats and breaks them behind you while you're trying to watch a movie.
posted
I would have said hes a dumbass at all caps old english...end of conversation.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Stephen, I like the way that would educate the customer, but I think Cam's approach is far better. I agree with him based entirely on one statement by the customer about his wife....
"She went to beauty school and she really understands this stuff, so that's what we wanna do. We just want you to order the letters for us."
This say VOLUMES about this customer. 1: The wife's design backround aside, this guy's not asking for input and closing the door on it. (Personally, if a customer came in here and argued that a beautician knows more about designing signs than I do, they'd have gotten the hook right there.)
2: He didn't say "I", he said "we" in two instances. When it comes time to ask for the letters to be ordered, it's "we". That leaves a great big hole for problems later. She hasn't seen anything, she hasn't approved anything and if she refuses to pay for them, Cam's stuck with a bunch of letters...100% out of his pocket.
3: "just" If there's one word in the English language that EVERY sign maker should attune their ear to, this is the one. It's an instant red flag. "Just" is a word that minimizes things, and in Cam's case, the customer thinks that placing the order properly, getting it when they need it and putting them up is a simple thing.
BONUS ROUND: "we're gonna need more signs later, and I wanna be able to use you for all my stuff."
Translation: We want bulk prices now and forever based on an empty promise.
My response: "Well, if you aren't agreeable to my terms of service, that's not gonna happen, is it?"
As I said, I like your approach, but I think given any of the above, especially this guy's inability to agree to place a deposit, instantly qualifies him as a lost cause hardly worth wasting a lesson on. I'd rather play Need For Speed on my Playstation 2 for a half hour that try to convince this guy I know what I'm talking about. I would rather win some races than lose time and money.
Educating the customer is great, but it only works when they are willing to listen. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Getting requests for sign work sometimes feels like standing in a batters box. You never know what's going to be thrown your way. We get people coming through our door with all kinds of requests and expectations including designs on scraps of paper. We find that most people don't know anything about signs or how to order them. We look at them as raw material and try to form them into educated clients. We can usually get a sense right away if they're a customer. If they aren't we line them up with another shop "that would suit their needs." They're quite appreciative to be directed to a sign company that is more suitable (and usually Cheaper). I find making signs is the easy part, handling the public is the real challenge.
quote:Originally posted by Ray Rheaume: .... 3: "just" If there's one word in the English language that EVERY sign maker should attune their ear to, this is the one. It's an instant red flag. "Just" is a word that minimizes things,....
I don't listen for it but every time they say it, it rings loud and clear.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
"some of those plastic letters"...could he have meant vinyl?
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
hey cam, i hope you post a pic of the end result, sure to make us all feel better, karma , justice, whatever, or maybe the ugly sign contest will come back just for this one?
-------------------- Pete Payne Willowlake Design/Canadian Signcrafters Bayfield, ON
posted
Cam, I'm hoping that in the future you recognize these situations sooner and send them promptly to your favorite competitor.
The only benefit I see from allowing the sales opportunity to prolong like that is for the benefit of our entertainment on this board. Thanks for sharing this bit that helps us appreciate some of our most frustrating sales experiences.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I have to disagree with Dan. Yes, many people ask some seemingly ignorant questions but need to be educated in the sales process. We all are guilty of the same when we shop outside of our profession.
That said, with all the facts that Cam supplied, this customer is an idiot.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I think he was setting you up as you suggested, Cam. Too much hesitancy to avoid payment is a common scam from the 'Slick Rick's' of the world.
It was a bad deal from the start and you were - no doubt - very professional in ripping up the work order.
All without (audible) vulgarities . . . .
I'd have done the same thing - or similar. You tried to educate and were refused. That's why you're right by doing what you did. Refusal to learn is the customer's problem - not a businessman's.
-------------------- Jay Allen ShawCraft Sign Co. Machesney Park, IL jallen222@aol.com http://www.shawcraft.com/
"The object of the superior man is truth." -Confucius Posts: 1285 | From: Machesney Park, IL, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Now that's classier than Champale! (I think I just threw up in my mouth a little) Good riddance...this is not an opportunity to inspire or upsell. The customer, waiting till the last moment to obtain one of the most important things, relying on the expertise of his wife, dangling the carrot of future signs at you, then expecting you to foot the bill, it all adds up to not being worth your time. He wouldn't have listened to reason even if you tried to show him fonts or colors, and is more than likely trying to make his own sign with red duct tape at this point. Good for you, Cam. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I would have to disagree with Grandpa Dan here, who is obviously a kind soul, and will surely have a front row seat in heaven.
Folks like this should not be in business. You need to see the big picture to be successful in business. There are plenty of places to turn to get a working knowledge on the subject of signs. Signs should be a marquee part of any business. If you don't know that you won't be successful.
It's the old golden rule here too. Would you think about going to another business and telling them how to do their job? Would you assume they need your help figuring it out? Would you then argue against their expertise? And after you have been combative, would you scold someone for their payment policies and insist on having everything your way and expect them to understand your needs.
Folks like these don't need an education so they can educate someone else, because they are not going to give you fair word of mouth. They are going to tell their friends that "you" were the combative one and that you can not be negotiated with, and that you were no one to "horse trade" with. Ultimately that is what you want, and firing the potential customer is small penance for the aggravating experience you've just had be giving the bloke the time of day.
Good job, Cam, I wish I could have been their to kick his butt out of your shop.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Had I been having a really tight, busy day I probably wouldn't have spent more than five minutes with him - but I had two good sales earlier in the day, had several signs coated out and drying, and was giving some thought to leaving early, so I gave him more slack than I might have otherwise.
The other thing is, I really DO hate to see people put up garbage, so if I feel like I have a chance, at the very least, to change their mind, I'll take it. With this one, by the time he'd made it clear that he wasn't going to accept any discussion of design, I'd already decided to just take his money - but when he started trying to weasel out of the deposit, I knew he was going to be a continuing problem, and it was time to show him the door.
Best of all, it never got nasty - I just told him I wouldn't be able to help him (I had to say it several times, to the point that I was truing not to laugh). He just couldn't grasp that someone wasn't willing to just roll over and beg. Oh well...
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I'd wait a month, Then look up the salon, drive past, just to see what they ended up with. I'd might even make an apointment, maybe during my hair cut, I'd ask the stylist, "Who did your sign?".
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3812 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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The guy just called a few minutes ago. Without identifying himself, he asked if I'd be there tomorrow around 2pm. I said I would, then he said his wife decided they should order the letters from me and he's going to come by tomorrow afternoon with a check for the deposit. My heart sank, quite frankly, but I figured I would try to make the best of it. This oughta be good.
I suggested, again, that his wife come with him to discuss this design... he said she'd think about it if she has time.
I'm flummoxed. Apparently no one else could deal with him either (it's been almost a week), so it looks like I'm getting another visitation from this eggplant. As I write this it's 11:30 am Eastern time; I've got 26 1/2 hours to figure out how to deal with him, or them. (I actually look forward to meeting his wife, if only for the entertainment!) I'm open to suggestions at this point - what would any or all of you say or do?
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Gosh, we all wish you could video this one. We'd just luv to see the three of you interacting.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3812 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I'd be nervous...but as long as the deposit is good(and covers the cost of the letters), and he brings the balance when he picks them up I guess I'd do it.
posted
I would welcome them into your shop. Then immediately start critiquing their hairdos. Tell the guy he'd look better with a mullet (provided he doesn't already have one) Inform the wife that you really think she should change her hair style to an Amy Winehouse beehive with red and blonde streaks. Then laugh as they get POd. Tell them you just wanted them to see what it feels like to have someone tell a professional how they should be doing their job. Then, get out the Gemini catalog, let them pick whatever their hearts desire, and charge them 75% more for the materials plus a $100 rush fee. Show them the pic I posted here as inspiration on their great new look. Love.....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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