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I've done a search on dye sub here, and read replies going back 7 years- and technology/ink/materials have changed in that time. I've checked out a fair few good websites on it too.
We already have a 16" sq Hix heat press.
I have a job that could pay for a set-up, and make it worthwhile, but I have some queries.
Learning curve- does this relate to just the application of the transfer paper to the polyester coated object, or is there a severe theory lesson too, which I might find difficult, in spite of a fair ability with photoshop?
Mug printing- a useful sideline, or a pain in the proverbial rear? What main problems are there with it? Durability used to be the issue, but is it still an issue today?
I'm looking at Artanium inks & either an epson 1410, or c87.
Is the benefit from the extra LC & LM ink of the 1410 really noticable in the prints & quality? Is the nature of the substrate more of a governing factor in image quality than the paper quality, or is substrate quality (i.e.ability to hold the ink in the right place without 'smudging') not an issue?
(We did get some mugs done by a commerical place 2 years ago- the file I gave them was a decent sharp, clear 200 ppi high quality jpg. The picture came out posterised & fuzzy and I thought pretty awful knowing what we began with.)
I have a job needing about 15-20 plaques to be weatherproof. Each will be about 14" square, and me a monotone print- kind of museum interpretive signage for a disused railway station north of us. The print will be text & half-toned photos.
I am wondering if dye sub on polyester-coated stainless steel, or on aluminium is the way to go, or will the image fade after 8 years in the weather in open air? Would 2-pac urethane clearcoat over it make a significant difference to its UV stability?
Or should I go for a laser etching instead?
At the moment we need something that'll be top quality & will last well. At worst, I could go for a digital print & laminate, but I'm opting for something that'll look like it's more permanently etched into metal.
So, those who do dyesub with inkjets- has that side of the business grown a lot? What's been the most profitable direction of all the options? (I'm not looking to start with laser dye-sub)
Should I try & do this project myself (the 15-20 big metal plaques), or am I likely to fall flat on my face with costly learning & regret it?
Thanks in advance for all bits of advice!
[ November 27, 2007, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Ian Stewart-Koster ]
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Ian, yes we do Dye Sub. Learning Curve. Pretty Simple if you are already doing wide format. Toughest thing is getting your ICCs dialed in.
Personally Mug printing for me is a waste of time. My wife likes doing them so I don't get to involved in that. They are ok when you do orders over 50 but I have better things to do then a single mug for $15-$20.
Airtanium inks. Good Inks but dosen't matter as SawGrass owns all the ink Technologies.. yes Spend the extra Money for the 6 color System. We were running both the 4 color c87 and 6 color 1280 and the C87 is a POS and the prints looked like crap. Just buy the good transfer paper though Color Pix. We buy it by the roll so it is very more cost effective that way.
Materials do make a big difference when it comes to the white point for your images. We primarily do Tile Murals so I only use 2 distributers for our tiles. The Best Tiles are from Bison Coatings and thats all we'll use on large projects. (100+ Tile murals and Flooring) Then the tiles offered by Jhonson Plastics for the smaller items. 8 -16 tile murals.
As for your Plaques. Go with the Laser etch. We did a test mural outside the shop and it started bleacing out after a year. Granted I did put it in the worse facing direction possible facing SW as I want to see for myself what would happen before I even offered exterior Tiles.. From what I have read they have improved the the UV for outdoor use. But I trust Manufactures as far as I can toss them.
I would never rely on Dye Sub as a viable income. It does add a fair amount to the bottom line at the end of the year but it seems to be a very seasonal business. Mostly around Christmas but in all Fairness I don't heavily market it either as I primaraly focus on the Higher end Dye Sub Tile Murals so our pricing weeds out all the Wally World Shoppers. This is a Custom Product and you will have costly mess-ups so we charge accordingly. We are currently in the process of buying a wider format machine so we can print 36" at a time to speed the process up.
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Learning curve isn't that bad. The biggest things are having your profiles setup correctly and knowing what time/temp to press everything.
I do a fair bit of mugs. The only problem, durability-wise that I know of is if they are washed in dishwashers. Most household ones are fine, but industrial ones are way too hot. Since the ink is set on the mug or whatever with heat & pressure, re-heating it to that temp will cause the ink to migrate. It may not be noticeable at first, but after a few washings, it'll get very fuzzy.
If this is going to just be a sideline, I would forget about the inks and look into what is available down-under for laser dye sub. I switched in 2006 & never looked back. I can leave the printer turned off for 3 months, do a print & it's perfect. If I left the inkjet turned off for 3 weeks, I was looking at an afternoon of clogs, wasted ink, numerous print cycles and frustration. All of which totally ruined any chance of a profit.
What you get out is equal to what you put in. As for the mugs you had done 2 years ago, if you printed the exact file on a piece of paper at the exact size and compared it to the mug, they should be almost dead-on. If it was fuzzy on the mug & not on the paper, they pressed it too long, didn't have the transfer secured well enough & it slid, or didn't have enough pressure during pressing.
The ink WILL fade outside in the UV. Laser isn't suppose to, but it really hasn't been around long enough to prove that to my satisfaction. Logically, since ink is liquid and toner is solid, the laser should be more stable outside.
Ok, just saw that you aren't looking to go laser. Disregard my argument for it. I won't delete it so it can be helpful to someone else.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Interesting info. I agree, the learning curve isn't bad at all. We have a Epson 4000, uses 2 sets of 4 inks and we don't sell much at all. Of course, I don't market it like I should either, but have been very frustrated over the ink clogging. It seems like we waste alot of ink. We were at the Indy Show, wanting more info on the Laser Printers, and no one seemed to want to give out to much on them. We do alot of ceramic tiles, cutting boards. A few mugs here and there. I would suggest going laser with the awards, they just have a classier look to them. We do all our awards and plaques on our laser. You do have to make sure that the materials you laser on our outdoor durable too.
-------------------- Patricia A. Raap Raap Signs 2615 Arthur Coopersville, MI 49404 616-677-0158 pat@raapsigns.com Posts: 590 | From: Coopersville, MI 49404 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Chris- OK, the laser is definitely worth it then, I guess- what inkjet printer did you have? I've heard fewer clogging issues with the epson 1410 than all others. (Years ago we had an epson 700, which did beautiful quality photo prints, but clogging made it useless in the end, unfortunately). Is the cmyk of the laser still better than the 6 colour inkjet?
My reason for being not so interested in laser is that here, inks are not difficult to get, but laser dyesub toners are not as well-known. Also I have 2 lexmark colour lasers, and don't really want to buy a new different one just yet- though maybe I should!
Bill, thanks for the advice- I'll price the job on laser etching instead then- and wear the difference. I'd hoped newer materials might have given us maybe a 10 year life- and we just redo it in 10 years time if all goes well!
I see lots of ceramic tiles advertised in the catalogues of the suppliers, but personally I have never figured that as much of a market- I'm interested in how you developed your market there? Is it corporate building foyers, new house builders for bathrooms, or where do they go mostly? Are you printing on white tiles mostly?
Thanks, Pat, for your comments too.
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"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
I went through a couple Epsons. My personal opinion is that unless there is a huge revolution in the printers or a brand new ink is developed, the clogging is going to be an issue. Dye sub ink has a lot of heavy solids in it where regular printing ink doesn't. Inkjet printers are based on thinner inkjet ink, not designed specifically for the dye sub inks. I don't know of any printer that is designed specifically for the dye sub ink, it's always a retro-fit type situation.
I use the OkiData 3200 and the toners from www.automatictransferinc.com I'm not familiar with the lexmarks, check out that site & see if there are toners for your printer. You'll want to dedicate 1 printer to dye sub. You can switch back & forth, but you'll waste a lot of toner (or ink) doing that because you have to totally clean out any "regular" toner or ink before swapping over to dye sub. If you want a real education, check out dyesub.org There are people there that do it a lot more than I do. I researched a lot & found the oki & ATI toners to be the best choice for what I do. I have no idea how they compare to other choices for doing shirts, etc. because I don't do those. My most popular items are ceramic mugs, stainless travel mugs & the FRP name badges & key chains.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Ian, The murals really started by Dumb Luck Marketing. I was working on one for the shop. Was about a 4'x6'ft one I was going to put on our wall. It was an Old Seipa of Canon from the ealier 1900's. A local builder saw it while I was lettering his truck and he wanted it for his Office. Well everything is for sale so he bought it. He specializes in Trophy houses so now we usally do 2 to 3 a year for him and some other builders in that market. More money then sense. Go figure. I just really haven't figured out why people will put a picture on a wall of the mountains when they have the real thing right out their window. I'm not gonna complain. We also hooked up with local artists and put their artwork on tiles for them that sell through their Gallerys.
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