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A client wants me to apply a large panel of black vinyl on a plate glass window in her building. She wants gold lettering on the second surface then a large 38" x 58" black vinyl backer to create good contrast. (the window is 84" tall by 59" wide) This window faces the west and will catch a bunch of sunlight. My concern, will the vinyl heat up and expand with enough stress to crack the glass? Anyone had experience with this type of issue?
-------------------- Tony Lucero Eagle Graphics Waterford, MI www.eaglegph.com Posts: 305 | From: Waterford, MI, USA | Registered: Apr 2000
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I'm sure that it will break the glass. Years ago when we lettered the top of plate glass windows when we painted the valence along the top, we would leave a inch boarder on the top and the sides to allow the heat to dissipate.
-------------------- Len Mort Signmaker1.com 11 Juniper Drive Millbury, MA 508-865-2382 "A Good Business Sign, is A Sign of Good Business"(1957) Posts: 811 | From: Millbury, Ma | Registered: Dec 2006
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A local window film installer had me cut dark blue vinyl for the whole front of the local chevy dealership's windows on top. He didn't want to remove and re-install the film so he covered it up on the outside. If I remember right, the glass panels were about 4 ft high and about 55" long and went the whole length of the building. The glass was facing west. That was about 4 years ago and its still holding up fine.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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I've seen this go both ways. Chances are a vinyl patch that size, on glass that much bigger, won't break it, but why take the chance?
This sounds like a customer that really doesn't know what she's talking about. If contrast is a problem, suggest a black outline around the lettering, rather than a large black background. Another solution might be to place a black background panel inside the window but not attached to the glass.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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It's going to heat the room up like a MoFo when that film absorbs the direct solar radiation then belches out the heat into the room behind it.
You would be better off using either window tint to create the contrast or a "Black Out" film made by a window tint manufacturer because either of these will be formulated to not damage the glass. The black out films need to go on the outside of the glass though.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Have a Dark Tint, installed instead. That will work.
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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I covered a shopping center window 5' wide x 9' tall in black vinyl for a friend of mine. That sucker got direct sun all day most of the year and never shattered.
Mikes right though...you could walk past that thing and feel the heat.
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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A lot of the newer glass is safety glass which will take a tremendous amount of stress. If it is "plate" glass, you could be in trouble. Years ago, while working with the signpainter that helped me along, we did a window that broke because of a black header across the top (another sign company did it). Al Bradt told me, "NEVER put black panels or headers on a glass window!" I never have and because I haven't, I have never had one break!
I wouldn't do it!
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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After tinting literally dozens of store front windows (mandatory shatter resistant tempered),, and living in an area where the subtropical sun beats down all day every day. Let me say this.
Nearly every store with large windows has them tinted. Many of them are tinted with block out. Many more windows were covered with vinyl and never broke. Overall, I never once personally observed a broken sore front window because of window tinting or vinyl.
However I have observed cracked windows that were totally covered in the double pane glass insulated style. They were bonded in in the frames so tight the glass could not move. Fortunately that style of window didn't sell.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Local Taco Bell has replaced numerous windows because the large static cling marketing posters causing the glass to shatter. Now, they only put them on north facing windows.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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This is a problem in colder zones, and would probably never become an issue in warmer climates.
From what I understand, the problem is caused by a difference in temperature causing stress on the glass. A dark header, or large section of black, will absorb heat at a different rate, causing the dark section to expand. The remaining extremely cold glass will not expand at as quick a rate (if at all) and presto - broken glass. Have you ever tried to remove paint from a cold window sash with a torch? When you concentrate the torch on one corner for too long... crack! Try it - wear safety glasses though. Ever toss a cold marble into hot water? All the rage when I was a kid, it was called "crackle" and it was a craft project item that was great for tie-tacks and gaudy rings... same principle.
[ November 18, 2007, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Gene Golden ]
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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up here it has to do with raoid temp change, freezing night, hit with hot sun suddenly when the sun breaks over the roof at noon, and bang. With thermal units it can also be affected by which side of the inside glas panel has the low e coating for insulation. I wouldn't do it becase the window company will use it to void the warranty if the glass cracks, whwther that was the true cause or not. If you hang a dark panel or even blinds on the inside leave a 5" minimum space between the glass and panel for heat dissipation and air movement
-------------------- Pete Payne Willowlake Design/Canadian Signcrafters Bayfield, ON
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When the whole piece of glass is coated (tinting)and the glass has enough space at its mounting channels, there is no danger to breaking as the expansion from the heat is distributed evenly across the whole window. The trouble happens (breakage) when a panel, a header of a large, dark mass is applied to part of the window. The glass is now heated unevenly causing a lot of stress and this can crack the glass!
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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Black on glass is always a problem, especially if it is older plate glass 1/4". Even with a more modern 70s argon filled thinner. A solid covering will be better, but lines will definitely crack the glass. I like the idea of using perforated stuff.
Interestingly, ask when the glass was installed, if they can tell you. If it was done in colder weather, the glass was pre-shrunk and in the heat it will expand to the sides enough with black on it to possibly crack. If it was installed in hotter times, the glazier probably cut it to fit and you might be fine.
I had one panel of a big set of plate glass from the 60s that cracked. The customer called me up and complained vociferously. I happened to open the paper ten minutes later and saw where a deer had run thru the delership with a picture of the deer on the front page of the KC Star. Naturally, my signs are not deer-proof! I took the paper with him and we all got a big laugh, but the glass was defitely cracked above where the deer ran thru across the black outline of the sign. In full sun for even a few hours, I usually use Ultra Blue Poster for outlines.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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I had a thermal pane window break with a valance of color. The window faced south and the valance was low and directly into the sun. I believe it broke during the winter months. It was in a series of 4 seperate windows and it was the only one of the 4 that broke.
This happened I'd say about a half dozen years ago. The field of color was never replaced and the other windows are still fine.
I did not have to pay for the window which was at an insurance company, because the original job had the fields of color on the outside of the glass, but the insurance offices were next to a theater and the client claimed moviegoers were picking at the vinyl as they stood in line for movies.
I suggested red cafe curtains on the inside of the window. The color needed to be red, because it was for State Farm Insurance, and that is their colors. The client requested putting vinyl on the inside of the double-paned glass. I agreed, but made no guarantees and stressed the fact, that I was not sure about breakage. I did leave an inch of glass between the sash and the vinyl, but after about a month, the client called and complained about the heat being generated by the valance of color. I said we better removed it and he said he didn't want to and weeks later it broke. It was like well, "duh."
Although I'm not a scientist, I think the color on the inside of the window may have trapped in the heat, although I'm still mystified as to why the others didn't break, and why the client has not removed the other panels. A friend of mine who owns a glass company said that he is surprised we have not had more problems and said that his warranties for glass are null and void as soon as graphics of any kind are placed on windows and that includes window tinting. Yet I have letter scads of windows in my career and only had that one incident.
So there you have it from my end. Needless to say we don't do valances of color facing south which are not under an awning or somehow out of the sun. This includes single pane or double pane.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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I'm really surprised no one here has brought up the once-common practice (upstate NY, anyway) of painting black backgrounds behind the lettering in elegant windows. Jewelry stores, especially, had nice lettering, often gold, completely surrounded by a solid black rectangular panel. The bottom edge of the panel was a straight line and about a quarter inch below that was a quarter inch line of black paint. It was supposed to ease the thermal stresses in the glass. Whenever I do an area of glass that I'm afraid could soak up or lose a lot of heat fast, I'll put a thin dark outline around my work, spaced about a ¼" from it. I vinyled a big border around a jeweler's windows 3 years ago. It's west-facing and gets HOT in the afternoon. I used the usual thin black outlines and we have no problem yet. You can bet we discussed the thermal considerations and he assumed all the risk.
-------------------- Frank Smith Frank Smith Signs Albany, NY www.franksmithsigns.com Posts: 807 | From: Albany, NY USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I wonder if this is just not a window glass installer prob. Glass schould always be installed with free space around them to they can expand freely. On some older windows the house may have set so there is no space left. I use to knock test before working on windows. Knack it with your knucles, if it is tight it gives a klirr sound and then I advice the customer that this glass may break easily
-------------------- Stein Saether GullSkilt AS Trondheim Posts: 1183 | From: Trondheim Norway | Registered: Nov 1998
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lol Gene . . . and how 'bout that hot pyrex dish set in the sink to be rinsed . . . *CRAK!*
. . . I hate when that happens . . .
This is very curious to me. I've not heard of it or seen it happen, and it gets really hot here, altho' I admit almost everyone has some sort of tint to help all manner of things including protecting interior merchandise from fading . . . .
In the case of the taco bell windows for example, I wonder if the landscape sprinklers are coming on while the store-front glass is still really hot?? Or window washers have chosen a bad time to do their cleaning ...lol
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
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"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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