posted
The truth is....God did not give a damn thing to any special person except the ability to use reason. Those with talent aquired it,period. As a aprentice sign writer, I can simply say that the only learned rule was keep out of the way, watch and listen hard cause it usually only comes around once. (info). I prayed to the sign holy's and any other high lords for guidence and got $h!t... After coating out hundreds of sheets of unprimed MDO, finally one day a journeyman asked me to fill in some large type (helvetica) on a batch of billboard panels. Did I Pee my pants? You bet. I got to touch a real sign brush. The rest was not history yet though. A few years later while working with Jesse Callo, at his small shop in Mountain View,CA, I started to touch all kinds of brushes. (Still have some of them). The secret (at the time) was revealed to me what Jesse, had figgered' out was...most of the good ideas were available from magazine ads, lots of labels on the grocery shelves and the library was full of good ideas that could make a smart sign painter look like a gift from heaven. That's pretty much how the whole deal shakes out. Just copy and alter something you find like all of us do (nothin'new under the sun) and move on. Rollin' like a big wheel in a Georgia cotton field...Honey Hush! See: Joe Turner, the true creator of thr term..."Rock and Roll"
Thasit'
CrazyJack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
While I do fimly believe that we are all given certain gifts, without training, even the best artist can't be a good designer.
When we learn the rules via the Mike Stevens book, or any kind of layout class, we get better at making signs and logos. When a person with a natural eye for color and balance comes along and learns the rules, then you have something. But even a mediocre artist or a person with no art skills can become a halfway decent designer, with a little bit of education.
Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:The truth is....God did not give a damn thing to any special person except the ability to use reason. Those with talent aquired it,period. As a aprentice sign writer, I can simply say that the only learned rule was keep out of the way, watch and listen hard cause it usually only comes around once. (info). I prayed to the sign holy's and any other high lords for guidence and got $h!t...
Jack - I think God probably has a different opinion regarding your comment;
Romans 12: 6-8
quote:We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8. if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
I do think from what others have stated, and what I'm reading above, that whatever gift you are born with must be aggressively acted upon and pursued to fulfill it's full measure of perfection....
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I'm sure most people have stopped reading this thread, so I'm safe to write my novel. It will bore only a few of you.
Is it really necessary to discuss the origins of latent ability? Whether the ability springs from God or Stephen's jellyfish, the real question has been whether latent ability (talent) exists at all. Does everyone start out with the same basic set of raw abilities, which then get magnified in certain areas (like art) through passion, dedication, and education? Do some have those areas pre-developed?
As some have stated already, I think the answer is more complicated than simply choosing nature or nurture.
Savants have abilities which exceed comprehension. Child prodigies may have spent a lifetime of education and dedication to their field of expertise, but that lifetime often fits within the space of just a few years. Those facts alone imply that the starting line for children is more likely to be staggered than straight. Children will crawl, talk, walk, and run at different rates, given very similar opportunities to practice. It would appear that certain latent abilities are greater in some than in others.
On the other hand, we have all heard stories about people who have developed abilities they didn't know they had. Einstein comes to mind. Countless anthletes have far exceeded anyone's expectations of their abilities. It seems that even ordinary people can do extraordinary things if they put their minds to it. I suspect that most of us are not prodigies, but we do have latent ability which may be less or more than the average person has. If the ability can be found, it can developed.
But, can education, passion, and dedication turn the designer equivalent of a 98lb weakling into a Charles Atlas of aesthetic excellence? I honestly don't know.
In my own life it seems experience can unlock abilities. I took two years of high school Spanish and didn't learn much at all. I could barely count, and I couldn't even carry on a simple conversation. At that time I would have thought my ability to learn languages was pretty poor.
Later I spent two years in Guatemala and became fluent in Spanish in spite of myself. I also took two semesters of German in college which I did fairly well in. I'm not conversational in German, but I know I could be if I spent enough time speaking it. My ability to learn a language is probably no greater than anyone else's, but now I know I can do something I never thought possible.
One particular semester of college I had 6 or 7 of my friends decide to take guitar lessons. It seemed like there were guitars everywhere, and I would pick them up and try in vain to make pleasant sounds. I asked one friend (who could play) to teach me a song, and he taught a really simple Bon Jovi tune. It had a total of 4 chords. He taught me the strum pattern too.
I'm sure he regretted it because I played that song at least 1000 times. I found other songs that used the same chords and played them to death too. Other chords were added as my ability increased. I also learned to vary the strum pattern. Over time my fingers became more cooperative, and I didn't have to think as hard about what I was doing. I'm still not a great guitar player, but I can play well enough to sing along to some nice tunes and have other people sing too.
What I find interesting is how mechanical and stiff my playing sounds when I'm learning something new, and how much more of myself I can put into it once I reach a certain plateau of ability. Members of my family have called my ability to play the guitar a talent. I didn't start out with any special ability, and I don't feel like I'm even good enough to play in a band, so I'm not sure what the word talent means in this sense. It seems more like an increased capacity to play after many many hours of practice. Hard work does pay off.
Art seems to have been a part of my life from my first memories. As a kid I was drawing constantly. I just loved doing it. I seemed to have more drawing ability than most kids, but then again, I was doing a lot more drawing than most kids. I have no doubt that any "talent" I might have started with was benefitted greatly with constant practice. I know I was improving over the years, but I wasn't really aware of how much improvement was possible until I got to college. I had some excellent teachers that opened my eyes to things I may never have figured out on my own. My work improved a lot in just a few short years. Hard work does pay off, and yet there are artists who are still lightyears ahead of me. Can I ever catch up to them? I don't know. Am I willing to put in the effort to find out? That is a more important question.
I don't think it would take a lifetime to teach someone to be a better designer. "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" is a book that shows how students can drastically improve their ability to "see", which drastically improves their ability to draw. I don't see why this couldn't be done for design as well.
This is way too long, so I will summerize by saying I think we all start with varying degrees of ability, and we can all improve on the abilities we have. Someone may improve in small increments, and with the same amount of effort someone else may take massive strides. Latent ability is there, but hard work pays off no matter where someone happens to be on the continuum.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I think I pretty much agree with that assessment Russ...
quote: Latent ability is there, but hard work pays off no matter where someone happens to be on the continuum.
I think latent (dormant,inborn) ability is there...and I definitely agree that practice and instruction can enhance that ability - especially and more profoundly in people that have that latent gift to begin with....if I am following you, Russ.
I drew a lot too...throughout my childhood growing up. Although I never took art courses in school...and had my first real instruction at Kendall School of Design (now, Kendall College of Art and Design)....which, while it has a great reputation....didn't really add significantly to my skills as a designer or artist in my opinion - not to say I didn't get some value from it.
I think I pretty much enhanced my skills by my own efforts and achieved more by incorporating what my eye told me was good art, composition, or technique by merely observing others art...and emulating what appeared to me as the strong points of each piece. I felt I could see what was good or effective....and see how it was achieved.
Believe it or not...a lot of inspiration came from comic books. The design and layout of each comic strip cell was an example of design and art of it's own accord that provided unspoken instruction.
I will still do that today....everywhere I go, I notice the design and creative aspects of many things....whether it's the industrial design beauty of an AR-15 or a neat little pattern or texture on a shampoo bottle at the grocery store.
But I always felt I had the gift in me from birth...and the ability to see and understand the workings of good art....what makes good art effective. I think I have grown over the years in my ability to design through observation and self-exploration.
I don't think my measure of this inborn gift is nearly as good as some, without question...but it's also not as minimal as others.
It's an interesting concept to explore....
Russ - you have a very strong talent (no pun intended) on writing and expressing your thoughts.
posted
While some folks here do no believe in the existence of God or the possibility of a greater power intervening in the lives of us mortals, the original question was about "talent"...and we have pretty well gone around the mountain on that subject.
Most of us here are designers. We take those designs and develop them into something that is physical, although they began only as a thought. Some are simple and some are complex. In my opinion, to view the universe as an accident or a series of unexplained occurances is like saying that a Las Vegas mega-structure was once a magnetic sign. In our physical world we assume that a building, a vehicle, furniture, etc. all had a designer. I wonder why we can then accept the universe as an accident. Design demands a designer.
To those who opinions differ from mine, you certainly have that privilege and can disagree with me. Not everyone has to have the same opinion as mine, but mine can be expressed here just the same as yours and we can still get along with each other.
Several have mentioned Gary Anderson during this thread and many admire his abilities as being the ultimate which we all try to emulate. It's as if we are saying many can be good sign designers but most will never become a Gary Anderson. Now, where did Gary get or acquire that ability. Was it something that is innate or did he pull himself up by his own bootstraps...or is it a combination of both. It would be interesting to hear his evaluation.
Just one more point and I'll go coat out some MDO. I don't think there is any force that makes us act against our will. We pretty well do what we want to do. Certainly, there are influences in our lives (parents, enviornment, mentors, etc.) but we still have the free choice to make decisions for ourselves and follow whatever path we choose. Some make good choices and others fail. Those that succeed (however you define success) are the ones that find a passion for doing what they find most fulfilling.
End of sermon.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Stephen, I admit I may not get "your" point, but then again, I often have a hard time understanding what your point is. I'm not trying to be rude. Sometimes the way you write is not clear to me.
I do understand that you want to debate religion versus evolution. In this forum it is my point to avoid that argument entirely.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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Whoever first designed drywall and made it so damn hard is a talentless hack. They should have made it softer so it doesn't hurt as bad when people like me bang their heads against it!!
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Russ McMullin: Stephen, I admit I may not get "your" point, but then again, I often have a hard time understanding what your point is. I'm not trying to be rude. Sometimes the way you write is not clear to me.
I do understand that you want to debate religion versus evolution. In this forum it is my point to avoid that argument entirely.
its not rude,the percentage of things he comes up with that follow any kind of logical train of thought run at less than 2% and thats being generous
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
When a discussion reaches a point where participants are apologizing, it's a good indication the topic is turning into a debate instead of a friendly discussion.
There is a difference between the two. One is just an exchange of opinion. A debate is more like a contest with expectations of a winner and loser. If you find yourself posting more than once or twice on a topic, one might argue that a debate is the goal rather than just offering your own opinion.
In any case, I've decided to close this discussion and try to enjoy a Saturday night babysitting our Grand Daughter. It beats jumping up every hour to babysit grown adults.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
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