posted
I want to thank those who helped me with my blue line cleaning problem the other day. The nose grease worked but the best thing was alchol. Thanks to The striper who said I shouldn't use those pencils...A little late, but welcome advise. Now a new question...Is there any preference between Shopbot and EZ Router? They both seem to be the same quality and the price is very similar. Can I drive them with my Flexi and enroute software? I have to build a table for either, so any comments? Jer/Artworx
-------------------- Gerald Barlow Artworx Turlock, CA
95380 artworx@bigvalley.net Posts: 198 | From: Turlock, CA 95380, USA | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey Jer, Glad to hear from you again. I bought a ShopBot because it breaks down to move. I think the EZ router is one big heavy unit, all put togeather. I'm only a 1 man show. I bought a 3 month old Shopbot and disassembled it to bring it back. I design in SignLab, then simply export as a DXF file. Good luck. . .have fun.
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
And,, tool changers can be added on for just a coupel hundred in tool parts. Software is already tool changer compatible. Just gotta get the collets and make a tool holder out of corian. All too easy. If you really feel one is necessary that is. I think im goona make one just to say i gots one..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
Diane know what she's talking about the improvements with the Shopbot. There much better today. I bought one six years ago and at the time it was the only way to go. It came as a kit in cardboard boxes. You had to bolt it together. Same as today. Their controll software is priority. You remember that from Gerber.
Not only is the EZ heavier and tougher, all welded together, it's also cheaper. This translates to a smoother operation and better cuts with less chatter. It comes with the industry standard controll software Mach 3. This allow you to see everything that's going on, on your monitor.
However if you'd like to give Shopbot a try, there's plenty used one for sale on their Forum.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mr. B, ther is a lady that I've met over in Lakeport that has invited us over to see their ShopBot and address all our questions about it. We've been dogging it for a long time and perhaps some time we could arrange to meet you there???
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6722 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
Flexi and Enroute are both compatible with our machines. Like Mr.Arnott said you simply import a DXF file into the Mach control system and your ready to cut. If you have any quesitons i would be glad to help you out.
Jacobh@ez-router.com 903-569-3190
-------------------- Jacob Head Mineola, Texas Posts: 8 | From: Mineola, Texas | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
CNC Router and the word "cheap" do not fit in the same sentence.
I'm in the process of setting up my EZ Router. I'm impressed with the machine so far. I'm still trying to figure out the best place in the shop as it is much bigger than I anticipated.
All in all, I'll take my 1800 pound EZ over the 800 pound ShopBot any day. Which one do you think will handle the stress of routing?
Also, both EZ Router and ShopBot are merchants here. I've never seen ShopBot take the time to answer a question on this board.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5398 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Its funny we all want good prices for all we produce, we don't like being undercut....don't cheat yourself on a major investment
If you're investing in something like a router why not find something you can grow with, there not like printers that become out of date after a couple of years, its something you can have many years and it will open many new doors.
I remember looking at Warthog and Shopbot and wondering how to get started in that part of the business, on a budget.
I then saw Multicam and Gerber at the trade shows, and saw the difference in build and performance,table sizes, servo or stepper motors toolchangers, vacuum tables, spindle sizes, misting, gantry heights, steel construction, aluminium construction etc.
Just remember when I first started sandblasting buying a hobby TIP pot and regretting it after the first job, and then went out and bought Clemco industrial equipment.
We recently upgraded our old mig with digital pulse technology, over the top for us but a real pleasure to weld thin aluminium, and equally happy welding steel beams, again something you can grow with.
I think all the routers have a place and of course we need to budget, but even a cheaper one is a fair bit of money, worth thinking about what jobs you might get in over and above the "norm".
We all want to stand behind whatever decisions and products we use, I'm really happy with our AXYZ it does a great job, that said I would have ordered it built much differently today, than what I did 3 years ago, truth is if I'd ordered today I might well have gone for a servo driven multicam, steel gantries, a good toolchanger setup Not perhaps because I need all that but I can see that it will help me today and further down the line.
Its hard for us to see what we'll be doing in the future, but there's alot of value and listening to others that have been down the same road.
I have a friend who works on his own he had 2 AXYZ machines that worked fine, he would have stayed with them but he wanted a servo machine which they couldn't supply, so he bought a Multicam 5000, which is an amazing bit of kit, perhaps abit overkill for a regular signshop (which he's not) but the 3000 series is a very nice machine like Dan has for instance.
Not putting any of the shopbot people down here, I'm sure the likes of Joe, Karyn, Ernie, Raymond etc are all making a good living on smaller monthly costs I guess its where people want to take things, with their investments, and not being frustrated by production speed or capabilty.
A few months ago I paid $14,000 cash for my 5'X10' EZ. What a bargain. It's quiet and smooth.
The only change I wish I'd opt. for was the Servo's.
Another cost affective CNC is the Techno-Isel. There a old world German company who also builds a quality machine.
I still kind of hold a grudge against Shopbot. I like their people, the company and all the users though.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Now Joe, you will have to admit that the ShopBot you had is nothing like the present generation.
Since we don't do production work here so that we have the CNC running 12 hours every day, our ShopBot has been more than adequate. We are more than satisfied with our machine.
Also, ShopBot's tech support is first class.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
You should also consider what you'll be using the router for. If most of the stuff you'll be doing is HDU 2D cut outs, you should be fine with most of the machines people are talking about in this thread.
However, if you plan on doing 3D signs and textures your machine will be running more than 10 hours straight for one sign at a time.
I have Dan to thank for my higher electric bill!
-------------------- Cody Reich Columbia Signs Posts: 300 | From: Vancouver, WA | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I can't wait to really join in this conversation. I just signed a lease Friday on an additional 750 sq. ft. unit in the same building I have been growing my business in for the last 11 years. I'll get the key next week & will start getting more serious on exploring all my choices, & whatever my electric requirements & space requirements will be. My best employee ever is due back to work with me again this spring & he has been getting trained on router work back in Kansas City, so I hope to have his help when we take on the demands of another learning curve.
It's great to have all you folks who've "been down the same road" as Henry said.
posted
So many people want to buy a cheap machine, run a cheap software, hire a cheap employee, to make cheap signs out of cheap material, for a cheap client who has a cheap business...and all for a small price and little profits because it's the sign industry and that's what the other cheap guys in town do and charge for. Then, when you're done counting your money, which doesn't take long because there's so little left, we can all come on the BB and complain together that business is hard and money is rare...
Or, you can make better signs for more money because they are worth more money. You invest the time to learn about design and techniques, buy better machines and better material and develope a better market where the clients with the better businesses are. The money is better and so are the profits. The value of the work is better, the rewards are better and first thing you know... you start complaining about being too busy, so you raise your prices AGAIN !
posted
Back a couple of years ago we decided to purchase a router and the search was on for a machine that suited our needs.
I attended a large trade show and saw many machines in action. I asked questions and gathered information. It was confusing at first but I slowly sorted it out.
I talked with many router owners, of many brands. I did online research and talked with a few dealers of brands I had shortlisted.
Saving money was absolutely at the bottom of my want list... I was out to spend a bunch without a doubt. I was deeply concerned about value however for the money I was laying down on the table. I wanted the very best router and software I could possibly afford. It was no small purchase.
I was looking for a router that would serve us for years to come. I wanted a machine that we would not outgrow, no matter where we went in the future, no matter what we might do in the future. And I had no crystal ball to tell me what that might be.
I wished to own a machine that could be pushed to the absolute maximum. I wanted bullet proof service and support for both the machine and software. I negotiated long term service and support as part of the purchase agreement. My dealer has lived up to the contract and beyond.
I wanted a heavy duty, all steel, fully welded, bullet proof machine. I wanted a 10+ HP top quality spindle with an impressive reliability track record. Servo drive was a must as was a vaccuum table and quality mister setup. An automatic tool changer was also high on the list.
I decided on 6" of gantry/spindle clearance as a minimum. I also needed the machine to be set up for single phase power from the factory as that was our only option in our shop.
Installation, setup and training had to be part of the package.
The machine also had to be upgradable in the future as future developments were invented and as our needs proved them necessary.
The router I ultimately purchased was not cheap by any standards and I could have spent considerably less for a lesser machine if I had compromised my standards just a little... something I'm glad I didn't do.
In the end I am confident my money was well spent. I got exactly what I was looking for and what I paid for. The machine has performed beyond my expectations. The support I have and continue to recieve from both machine manufacturer/supplier and the software people has been top notch and then some.
Now that the machine has been in my shop for two years it has paid for itself - in half the time I anticipated. I have yet to find things it won't do and anticipate the discoveries will continue to happen as long as I am in this business. Our MultiCam CNC router is still like new and will undoubtably serve us for many, many years to come.
In retrospect, I am very happy I didn't settle for lesser quality although the purchase did stretch us financially in a big way at the time.
My advise is to do your homework carefully. Don't compromise to save a few bucks. It will only haunt you in the future. Negotiate the deal you need. Then spend the money you must to get the machine which will serve you well for many years to come. Then reap the benefits of your investment.
-grampa dan
[ November 11, 2007, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Gramps, tell me how you are able to run a vacuum table on single phase power. I talked to a lot of people because this is what I wanted to do. Everyone said impossible, so I plopped down the $1700 for a 3 phase converter. Is there really a way to do it?
And I agree with those above. Again, cheap and CNC can't be in the same sentence. We decided on an EZ Router because it was the most powerful, heavy duty, router I could afford. Would I like an AXYS or Multicamm? Of course, but I'd rather start routing now than wait another few years. I wasn't looking for the cheapest router. I could have spent a lot less money. I bought the best I could find within my current budget.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5398 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
When doing critial strait lines as in Classic Lettering, you have very little or no allowance. However when doing textures and 3D work, just about any sort of router will get the job done. It's just like hand lettering. Helvetica is much harder to do than a loose script.
Rene, Thanks for the lecture.
Ray, You're right about Shopbots tech support. It's top notch as well as all their employees. Not to mention their Forum and Camps are the best in the industry. I don't believe MultiCam, Techno Isel, Gerber, AXYZ or any other big iron CNC company have active open Camps where users get together to share experiences. It's a unique great community.
We're having a CNC users group to meeting at my shop in a couple of weeks. Anyone with any brand router, or interest is welcome. Gary Beckwith will be showing off the latest ArtCam 3D Software. Others will be bring samples of work in progress. This is our second get together. Next month it will be hosted in Arkansas. It's amazing how much good information can be had.
Good times,
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Our router/vaccuum pump setup has a three phase converter (inverter?) built into the main control panel. When I was negotiating the purchase of my router I asked that EVERYTHING be included in the price... my electrician only had to supply the appropriate breaker at the electrical panel in my shop and run the wire to the machine... nothing more.
In doing so I avoided extra charges (for unforseen items) and also possible warrantee problems because different manufacturer's ans supplier's products didn't work together properly. My electrician most likely hasn't hooked up too many routers and so I wanted to make it all as simple as possible.
While the initial cost of my router rose accordingly because of this I brought it all under my extended warrantee (as negotiated) and took care of any possible conflicts before they happened.
Its a fact that CNC routers cost far more than the simple sticker price alone. Set up is a factor... especially if you have to put a machine together yourself. Time is money - whether you count it or not.
Software isn't cheap either. And this software comes with a steep learning curve- especially if you want to do fancy cutting edge stuff right off the bat. I didn't want a fancy expensive jig saw... I wanted to take the machine to immediate light speed. to quote Buzz Lightyear..."TO INFINITY AND BEYOND!!!!!"
Learning to operate the router takes time. Time is money.
You will use up materials as you learn to route as well. They cost money.
Shipping, taxes, duty, and interest charges (whether you borrow the money or pay cash) should all be factored into the cost of your router.
Having electrical wires and communication cables run to your router and possibly moving walls or rearranging your workspace to fit in a router all take time and money and need to be calculated into the total cost of such a purchase.
When the dust settles saving a few thousand dollars here or there on the initial cost of the machine isn't such a big deal in comparison to the TOTAL price.
The enchange rate of currencies for those buying a router out of country can be a big factor in the cost. If I were buying my router today I could save 30% on the cost of my router (compared to the exchange rate then) because the Canadian dollar is that much stronger! If you are looking to purchase a new router out of the US, that alone would make me much more willing to make the jump to a high end machine today.
I researched and clearly understood and calculated EVERYTHING into my purchase equation. I wanted to be totally satisfied with my rather large investment and not wishing I had spent a little more on the machine purchase to do it RIGHT the first time. I simply couldn't afford to do it wrong.
For those considering such a purchase... Do your homework... calculate EVERYTHING into your purchase before you make a decision. Buy enough router that you won't outgrow it in the future.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dave regarding the vacuum pump we have a German Becker, which need over here a 32 amp three phase connection, but only requires this for starting up once its running it would run on a lower amp connection.
I learnt this as I'd been advised 2 16amp 3 phase connectors, and got that fitted but had to upgrade after delivery.
Dan has a different type of vacuum pump, don't remember the name he can fill you in there.
Theres so much info from so many different people here, and that's why its so valuable to dicuss all this not just whether its an EZ, or Shopbot or AXYZ or even a Multicam
Gantry heights are important, when as Dan mentions they say 6", that's often before a vacuum board is glued in place i.e aluminium table upwards.
We have machined a new backplate for our spindle and cut it down somewhat to allow moving the spindle up a whole load, in order to get very long tools 150mm out of the material 100mm and move onwards.
posted
For those considering a router, I'd suggest a weekend visit to one of Shopbots meets. It's a mini Letterhead type gathering held in someone's shop. There are about a dozen scheduled this year all over the US.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
1) Beware of increased competition. We started making signs with a cnc router in 1994. For 10 years nobody around here had a router. Now days there are routers everywhere. It is not as bad as wide format printers but it going that way. Just yesterday we went to a grand opening for a new superstore, they had 14 carved goldleaf signs across the front. That would have been a nice order!
2) Don't buy a router without a real test drive. Take your design and go to the factory. Work through every production step for creating the runtime file and cutting the part. Know what you are buying, buyers remorse is no fun on expensive equipment.
ernie
Posts: 405 | From: Malta, NY | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would take a little time in chosing the right CAM software for your CNC machine. A great machine will only cut what is sent to it. So why not have software that can produce what you are trying to accomplish. This will reduce the time spent on post cut hand work.
At my present place of employment we are running EnroutePro3D software. We are producing very precise, small scale, decorative work. I am pretty impressed with what we can design and produce with this program. We are running that package on both a MultiCAM and Techno router.
And there can be, Like Dan has mentioned, a steep learning curve, especially if you have never done this work before.
I had the added benefit of working in a prototype shop for three years before learning Enroute. Two years were spent programming CNC machines at this job. I operated 2, 3, 4, and 5 axis CNC milling machines and CNC vertical Machining Centers. We used SurfCAM software ($15,000 per seat at that time) and there was a huge learning curve on that software. It took six months to get a fairly good grip on this software package.
With previous experience I was able to start cutting master parts after a couple weeks on the job. Most of this time was spent learning how to set-up and use the router properly. (Not to mention learning all the other aspects of the new job.)
And keep in mind, it takes a little time to learn about tooling and which cutters work best for your particular job application/material.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic