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After seeing what has happened to a major library sign in my small town that I painted with One Shot (extreme chalking after only 3 years ), I am afraid to use it again.
I have an order for 8 signs made of aluminum, (customer requested aluminum)but 4 of them need painted first.
Will latex paint stick to these aluminum panels, & also, if you please....what kind latex to make the vinyl stick to it??? Semi gloss, or gloss, or what? This is a new thing for me.
If I switch to latex, do I need to double coat it? If I do have to double coat it, how long to wait in between coats?
posted
Hiya Bobbie, What color started chalking after 3 years?!?! With the right primer, latex will stick to just about any substrate. However, I would check and see if I could get prefinished aluminum in the color I need first. Another option would be to cover the background with vinyl - depending on the size of the signs. When applying vinyl lettering on latex, use semi-gloss or gloss latex. Vinyl may not stick to the lower gloss finishes. Also, I would only suggest using HP cast vinyl. From my (limited) experience, lighter colors of latex on a dark background don't cover well and may need 2 or more coats. Since some paint manufacturer's recommendations are different, I would follow the directions on the can for proper surface prep and finishing.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Not sure if this helps, but I have used automoble paint on aluminum and had great results. 2 part, single stage paint (clear coat is mixed in with the paint) over a automoble primer and the sign looks just like a cars paint... well, almost. Sorry I wasn't able to answer your question, just thought you might want to consider another option.
-------------------- Cody Reich Columbia Signs Posts: 300 | From: Vancouver, WA | Registered: Aug 2007
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I have used latex but.....You need to make sure it thorougly cures. Perhaps use a heat gun,also scuff your surface for adhesion.I have had decent results with a thin sprayed application of frog juice for a gloss topcoat.If your latex is not fully cured it will keep breathing and vinyl will peel from it.Rule of thumb is not to mix mediums (latex vs enamel)because they shrink and expand at different rates. Hope this is of some help, Darcy.
-------------------- Darcy Baker Darcy's Signs Eureka Springs. AR. Posts: 1169 | From: Eureka Springs, AR | Registered: Nov 2007
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Checkers, it was reflex blue that faded so bad. Unless I can get a refund from one Shot, I may have to put out about $200 to make them a new sign. That is not counting my time of course. i haven't approached them yet, but will ask my supplier today.
These signs are to be around 34" square.
I will think about that auto paint option, Cody, but still should find out more about this for future referance. I just found a good post by Diane Balch that was on here a few months ago too.
All semi gloss or satin paints will allow the vinyl to stick.
Still a little nervous about the paint sticking to the aluminum tho.
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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I just did some aluminum panels with the krylon fusion and they turned out PERFECT.Few colors but when it's what you need it works.
-------------------- Jonathan Harvey Harvey's Signs and Designs 214 N. Main Newton,KS 67114 316-283-2424 (no telemarketers) Posts: 63 | From: Newton, KS | Registered: May 2006
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I'd choose vinyl overlay or automotive paint. My experience with vinyl sticking to latex are not the best. By the way, you may only have to wash that chalked up sign with soapy water to make it look like new again. Instant restoration.
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1) yes you can paint exterior grade 100% acrylic latex house paint to "prepainted" aluminum which is what you're probably talking about. Raw aluminum requires a different procedure. Most sign suppliers have prepainted aluminum panels. White is a very commonly supplied substrate. We like .063" which cuts easily with carbide blades. Simply scuff the surface with scotchbrite (red is best and is available at your favorite auto supply center.) 1 or 2 coats would suffice depending on the color.
2) you can have problems adhering vinyl to latex paint. I think if you are going to do it I would recommend you spray the color on, because an orange peel from a roller will give you most of your problems. I would then let the panel sit for a few days before applying vinyl to let the surface cure somewhat. Latex may feel dry to touch, but plasticizers migrating to the surface will make it hard for you to remove your premask and may may your vinyl curl on the edges. At all costs though be prepared to put your vinyl on dry for the best results.
3) I have had good luck by cutting a mask for painted graphics onto a latex background instead of appying vinyl to the latex background. When doing it that way you don't have to worry about whether or not the vinyl will stick, and you will get the perfection that a plotted graphic offers.
I have found that when I cut a paint mask and apply it, it is best to paint a very light coat over the mask that is the same paint as the background. This is called a "control bleed" and it will creep under the mask in those areas that aren't perfectly in contact with the background. Since it is the same color as the background it will not be noticed. I then apply 1 or 2 coats to cover on top of that color and when the mask is removed it gives you a razor sharp image.
You can use a system to your advantage with a little thought. For instance -- if your ultimate goal was to have a white letter with a black shade on a blue background, I would proceed as follows. I would use white prepainted aluminum and would cut a mask for the white letters and apply it to the aluminum. I would then scuff the areas around the letters and wipe it clean with rubbing alcohol. Then I would spray the blue latex over the mask and the next day I would remove the mask and paint the black shade by hand using a synthetic lettering brush. The black latex should cover the blue well enough so that 1 coat would be sufficient. I would ignore the "control bleed" here, because the mask will come into a complete contact with the prepainted aluminum which is always factory painted and very smooth. I would also make sure the edges of the aluminum are painted, especially the top edge, because I have found that as that edge oxidizes it sheds streaks over the prepainted aluminum as it weathers.
I have had outstanding luck with latex paint for the most part and have some signs out there for 25 years. I also use automotive paints over prepainted aluminum with a clear coat, but unless you have the equipment, I would avoid it.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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Yep, Bill, that is what I meant, the white-baked-enamel panels we buy. Thanks for all the ideas! I bought the satin, so I think the vinyl should stick ok.
I bought Sherwin Williams latex "Super Paint", they claimed it was much better than the acrylic enamel. I think I may post & ask if anyone has ever used it before.
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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Bobbie, Simply wash the chalking sign with soapy water and a sponge! Next time add hardener into the paint.
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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We have not had much success with painting latex on white baked enamel aluminum. We tried scuffing and painting but the paint never survived the "fingernail" test. If you use a primer like XIM it will help. Automotive type paints work great.
-------------------- Jean Shimp Shimp Sign & Design Co. Jacksonville Beach, Fl Posts: 1266 | From: Jacksonville Beach, Fl. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I have excellent results spraying latex on aluminum. I make sure the aluminum is thouroughly scuffed and cleaned. I have sprayed the background and come back with vinyl mask and layed lettering on top.
I love latex it ROCKS!
last a lot longer than crappy oneshot. adding hardener to oneshot is not going to stop the chalking. pardon me....at least down here in the sunny south it doesnt.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
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It can be done, but there's usually a better option right around the corner.
Check around at you local auto parts and paint suppliers. Over the last few years, many have begun using a system that puts automotive basecoats and single stage enamels into aerosol cans. They do have several "standard" colors available, but most will mix whatever you need. The costs will vary depending on the color, but if you only do it occasionally, being able to spray auto finishes without the cost of guns, compressors etc. is a great way to keep the overhead down.
I've also used Krylon Fusion paints on aluminum with good results, but they are VERY limited on color selection. My solution is to use it more as a color primer. Spraying their blue first and giving it a day to cure, I spray over it with reflex blue OS paints to get the final color I need. Usually only takes one coat to cover and with a blue undercoat, fading is less apparent later. A coat of clear will give it added longevity.
Hope this helps. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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I don't know what type of fingernails you have, Jean, but if they're like Jane's they could probably remove any paint.
Seriously, a test has to realistically be performed after that paint has cured somewhat. So, Bobbie, if you are going to assume that because the paint is dry to touch and therefore ready for a fingernail test, you will be disappointed and probably not use a paint system that is far superior in longevity and durability to traditional letter enamels. But there has been so many positive testimonials on this board about latex paints that I'm surprised anybody still doesn't believe in them. Talk to paint contractors and ask them how they paint their metal buildings. I mean most of the architectual paints used today are latex systems. They expand and contract with the metal and have much better color retention. All the aluminum on my house including the porch skirt and posts which I rapped with prepainted aluminum are painted with Sherwyn Williams Super Paint. That was close to 10 years ago and I have dozens of jobs going back as far as 25 years ago that have latex paints painted on prepainted aluminum sign blanks and steel corrugated buildings. Some of it was painted directly on the metal without scuffing and it has held up very well. I can't recall one job where the paint popped or peeled. And after it is thoroughly cured out, I think even Jean's fingernails wouldn't be able to get it off ... I don't know about Jane's though.
You've got to remember, a sign is a sign is a sign is a sign. It isn't going to be polished and run through high pressure washers and have the abuse an automobile might have. So it has the time to sit there and cure out without being beaten up so bad. If you put a freshly painted 2 day old latex sign out in hurricane winds it would probably come off, but other than that, as Gary Anderson will tell you. Jump in the water's fine.
By the way you don't need to pime pre painted aluminum. Scuff it when practical and make sure it's clean. I would venture to say that there are more brands that will work than we can count. Always use the premium line and shoot for 100% acrylic latex. Most major brand such as Sherwyn Williams, Benjamin Moore, Devoe, Pittsburgh, Glidden, Valspar and brands such as Porter will have a premium line that will cover most colors and also have readymix colors in deeper shades which are usually glossier.
[ November 08, 2007, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: Bill Diaz ]
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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Gosh Bobbie, Your have so many varying opinions, I don't know where you'd start.
Here's one more.
Mill grade aluminum, the un-painted kind, MUST be primed if you want paint to stick for a long time. Regular primers aren't recomended. We've been using the Acid base Sink Chromate. That's the stuff. It's a Matthews aluminum primer.
A fairly new latex paint that's realy, realy good on metal surfaces is (Dupont's DTM), the DTM stands for Direct TO Metal. Although it's a water based latex, it's much different. If it dries on your hands you'll know what I talking about. Unlike regular latex which is gummy after drying, this paint gets much harder quick.
We sprayed a couple of cabinets yesterday with the above techniques. So all this comes with working knowledge. It's been twenty years with no failures.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Joe, we use a similar primer the stays "gummy", but it's lacquer based. When a good exterior enamel is applied, it is amazingly hard & impervious to scratching.
It would certainly accept latex paints.
Baked enamel coated alum. should be treated as if it were plain.
I would avoid latex primers for alum. at this point.
-------------------- Michael R. Bendel Bendel Sign Co,. Inc. Sauk Rapids, MN Posts: 913 | From: Sauk Rapids, MN | Registered: Jul 2005
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We have two paints I have worked with lately and with great results.Tremclad and Armour Coat,both are for alum,steel and wood applications.Scuff raw metal and paint direct to panel.Don't know if they sell it in the USA.Canadian Tire products.
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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If it was me I'd just cover it with vinyl job done in minutes if its prepainted ovenbaked ally sheeting, you're gonna put vinyl lettering on it why not a vinyl background?
If its a weird colour that's hard to match we use industrial coating, we have a place closeby that powdercoats or use industrial finishes, as they run a carousel system we can't compete doing it ourselves, we just drive over a bunch of aluminium and pick it up a day later ovendried.
We paint our own weird projects and letters etc, but larger flat panels in ally are cheaper to farm out and the finish is great.
It works out over here a few dollars a sq yard cheaper than paying a guy in my shop to do it!
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I hope I'm not too late. I can't believe someone else hasen't use this sign enamel. It's Ronan Aqua Cote. I've used it many times on all surfaces. It adheres great and vinyl sticks like nobody's business. I have had problems with house paint and vinyl adhesion.
I too was converted by Gary Anderson back in 1992 at the Cannonsburg meet. I started using Porter and Deka, but you can't buy Deka anymore. The advantage of Ronan Aqua Cote is that it comes in the traditional sign color palette (like Reflex Blue) and it covers, even dark colors which don't cover well with house or industrial paints.
Another advantage is that these colors adhere to vinyls, so you can use them on banners and vinyl for lettering or making panels, directly with no pre-coating.
Also, I have found Jay Cooke's primer to adhere to bare aluminum with no pre-treatment, just cleaning with a good metal prep.
-------------------- Rick Heller Ohio Technical College 1374 E. 51st Street Cleveland, OH 44103 IOAFS Posts: 210 | From: Cleveland, OH | Registered: Nov 2001
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), I am afraid to use it again.
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