On occasion I get handed some decals made by another company to install along with other things I need to do to a given truck. My general speal is, I can't be held responsible for how long the decal will last as I didn't fabricate it. But I will do the best job possible in installing it and charge my same general rate for installation. I also generally request an extra be avail since if I mess up or there's a crease in the premask or whatever, I can't simply reproduce another and we don't want to be left in a jam.
One of my customers is handing me over an $800 decal to install on some pump panels. I have no idea if it's a huge digital print or what. But he REALLY emphasised it's cost and that's why he wants me to install it.
I'll again say I can't control how the decal will hold up nor can I reproduce it, however it just seems that if I'm taking this 'monumental' risk where if I mess up the application, crease or bubble it or what have you, I may be expected to fork out $800.
Do you charge a special 'high risk' rate to install such a thing? Or do nothing different and just do it? I'm curious what others do.
posted
I just tell them I accept no responsibility for something I didn't provide, and if they're uncomfortable with that they can install it themselves.
posted
Donna... I'm like Brad. I've done some installation of decals purchased from other shops or supplied by their corporate headquarters, and I simply give them the 'how it is' up front.
I tell them I very rarely have a problem with an install, but there's always that chance... I can guarantee them there's a lot better chance that I'll be successful than they will, because I'm experienced, however, if the worst happens and the decal is destroyed, I'm not responsible for it. If they have a problem with that, or if they act like they'll have hard feelings about it, I'll pass. It's just not worth the risk for the amount you'll make on the labor.
If you charge them more money because it's a high-risk job, they'll be much more likely to expect you to cover the cost of the decal if there's a problem. You could even do a release form and have them sign it, just so you know you're both on the same page.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
You can not accept any responsibility at all for something you do not provide.
Example: If you supply a digital print that's destined for a truck with rivets, you can select materials that will make your job a lot easier and risk will be minimal.
If someone else supplies that print though, you don't know what you're going to get. They could have printed it on some film that's very unforgiving and you end up with all kinds of tunnels, wrinkles, etc. You may have done a better job at it than your customer, but it's still not up to the standards any of us would expect.
The only way to get around it is to deny any responsibility at all from the very beginning.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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This is what I use on my invoices... Although the employees of Checkers Custom Signs take great care in executing all of its projects, our staff is only human and mistakes can happen. We will not be liabl for, be required to repair or replace client products accidentally damaged or ruined during the production or installation process. CHECKERS CUSTOM SIGNS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE THE PRODUCTS AND/OR SERVICES NOTED HERE AND ARE PROVIDED "AS IS". CHECKERS CUSTOM SIGNS DOES NOT WARRANT THE PRODUCT OR INSTALLATION, INCLUDING WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE BUYER IS SOLELY RESPONSIBLE AND LIABLE FOR DETERMINING PROPER SELECTION, USE AND INSTALLATION OF THIS PRODUCT.
The client must sign this before I begin the work. He gets a copy too. I haven't had to test it yet, but I haven't screwed anything up yet either
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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In our shop, we pride ourselves as expert installers. People come to us and pay us to install their decal because they don't want to risk screwing it up themselves. This is what we are in the business of doing. Unfortunately, if we screw up, and trust me, it has happened...we eat it. If you take your car to a car wash because you didn't want to clean it yourself and they scratch it to pieces, who do you think should be liable for damages? If you screw up their decal, you were the one who did the damage so why wouldn't the same rules apply?
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bruce, I see a little difference... a car wash should be able to wash a car without scratching it...
However, installing vinyl that someone else printed or cut has a lot more chance of having problems. Like Mike said, how do you know they vinyl is the best product for the job you have?
I've had guys order race car graphics from the internet, because they thought my prices were too high, and then want me to install them.. Now knowing the online company probably used the cheapest vinyl available, am I going to re-cut it with my vinyl if it goes down with bubbles on a rounded race car panel? That doesn't make sense. I'm going to charge them a pretty penny for installation, and 'TOO BAD' if one screws up. Shoulda bought the vinyl from me in the first place, and then I'd be glad to re-cut it...
For an example, I'd liken it more to you going and buying cheap automotive paint, getting your local auto-body guy to spray it on your vehicle. Then when there's a problem, even though he warned you about the cheap paint, you expect him to redo it using his good paint at his cost. Good luck with that one!!
The only way it would make sense to make yourself liable for the vinyl is if you figure in enough money on the installation to cover yourself if it DOES mess up. Otherwise, it is not worth the risk.
Just my take.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I'm with Jon on this one. You are not responsible for the failure of someone else's product. Period. Just make sure you follow the directions of others above, and make them sign a release that you did your best.....it's their baby from now on.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Failure on their product I can understand. But if I drop the thing, or I let it go in the wind, crease it when installing, rip it while burnishing it... mistakes do happen you can't always blame the product on.
No, it's not worth it to install an $800 decal if I mess up. But I am their sole installer and they trust me. That's why this has become somewhat of an issue.
posted
How about changing your quote to say- I will charge you X number of dollars to install this print you have supplied me with. But if there is a problem with it it's going to cost you somewhere in the neighbourhood of $800 extra! Just kidding. I think there are some great ideas here. I think Jon nailed it with the "Imagine that you are an automotive painter" line. I would think your client will start realizing some things are beyond your control. But first I would want to look at the print. You can judge how the install is going to go for you just by feeling the print. And trust yourself a little more. I don't imagine just too many problems have arose. Give him Jon's Automotive guy scenerio. Then maybe you could tell him that if there is a problem with it you would like to supply the next print for him at his cost, as you could get it wholesale, and possibly better quality with easier install. Now that may not be a great thought as your printer may have to work with the files a bit but it still won't be an $800 problem. Maybe a $400 or $500 one. (?) that's only if he totally won't take the responsibility. I think I would be weighing how much future business you could lose by telling him you are not comfortable with the job. It's really hard to say.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Donna in BC: Failure on their product I can understand. But if I drop the thing, or I let it go in the wind, crease it when installing, rip it while burnishing it... mistakes do happen you can't always blame the product on.
No, it's not worth it to install an $800 decal if I mess up. But I am their sole installer and they trust me. That's why this has become somewhat of an issue.
That would be a case of negligence, and we're all responsible to use reasonable care when doing a job. That's whay we only do what we are skilled to do and why we keep insurance just in case.
posted
Hey Donna, No matter what you do in life, sh*t happens. I've been in many situations where something has gone wrong. It could have been me, the shop "helper" who decided to throw out the graphics before you completed installing them or the master mechanic who spilled his XXL coffee on $6,000 worth of prints. Anyway, turning down good jobs because of this is rather silly. If you want to be extra safe, tac on an extra 10%-20% of every one of these jobs and bank it. So, if something does go wrong on an install, you can afford to replace the graphic.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I think everyone is confusing "failure" of the product versus screwing up while installing it. Any expert installer can easily identify whether the vinyl was made with an air release type of adhesive or whether it was made out of the cheapest material possible. If you know it won't go down long term over a rivet, you should have them release any liabailty for that type of situation. There's a difference between material defect and installer error.
Jon, I don't see the difference. The car wash should be able to wash the car without scratching it, just like an expert installer should be able to get the vinyl down without screwing it up. Donna presented both scenarios, failure and error. She shouldn't be liable for the material defect, since it was not her material, it was the customers. I still think the installer should be accountable if they screw up the install.
Let's say a mechanic installs a radiator that the customer brings in. He's not going to be liable if the radiator cracks since he wasn't the one who sold it to the customer. If he installs the radiator and it leaks at a hose connection, who is liable to fix it? It wasn't a radiator problem, it was a screwup on the install. I can guarantee that he's going to fix it. If the radiator loses all the water and cooks the motor because he didn't tighten the hose, who do you as the customer think is responsible? Anyone in that position would point at the mechanic.
It's too easy to take no responsibility, but as a business owner you have to take some degree of responsibility and back your service and do the right thing. If your not confident that you can install the decal, the customer is going to appreciate the fact that you need to turn them away and you were honest with him about your abilities or concern about bad material.
We got a call one day from a Snap-On dealer. He needed his large reflective logo installed on his van. I gave him the price and sent out one of my guys. My installer had himself a nice hinge happening when the wind suddenly blew the decal into itself and he destroyed the whole thing right in front of the customer. On the spot, my guy apologized and told him to order a new decal, which happen to be the same price that we were charging to install it, and we would come back and install it at no charge. That's exactly how it ended up playing out. He did the right thing even though I was ****ed at him for screwing it up. The customer didn't lose and money and they were still happy.
Again, failure and error are two different issues here.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I install easy no brainer stuff others supply all the time. When it comes to someone else's very large and expensive output, I simply can't guarantee the final outcome. He'd be hiring me as an employee, not one who provided the decal and can quickly output another at the drop of a hat. His chances are much much better that everything will go well if I do it rather then they, and they probably will, but an arrangement needs to be discussed. There are TWO of these things on their way. And possibly more in the future. I highly doubt this is a one shot deal.
This is the way I'm going to attempt to state my own personal regulations anyway. I'll let you know what happens. This install is not even an hour's work so I can't charge $800 to install it.
It's a large flat panel which will require at least 2 people, so some of his crew or himself would be assisting me.
I'll be checking to see how I'm currently insured for such a thing. I didn't think of that angle. Thanks!
[ November 02, 2007, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Donna in BC ]
posted
Talk to the printer and find out what you are dealing with. Material, overalaminates etc. Once you are familiar with your product the job will seem less intimidating. Be confidant in your skill as an installer and proceed as you would normally. If the product fails then address that problem, if you mess up, it will be a learning lesson and part of the cost of building your business. Knowledge is the key. You will be fine and will likely create a steam of work that will keep you busy.
posted
Donna, after chatting with you well into the last century I have found your knowledge to be well equipped to accompolish any project you put your mind to after a cup or two of Tim Hortons coffee
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
UPDATE: I've got them to set up a light table so we can overlay the decals overtop of the panel containing all these holes for dials, for perfect placement. From there I'll hinge it. They will choose the final positioning. I'll install it wet while vertical.
They understand my positioning. That's why they ordered an extra (LOL) plus two guys will oversee all is going well.
I am overqualified for this job, but that wasn't the point of this post. Stuff happens, best to discuss beforehand. That in itself is one of the best insurance policies.
Makes me want a digital printer even more... that's good money for one decal.
posted
I used to be somewhat of a franchise and ended up doing alot of big name company installs where the decals where suppiled, most of these big companies are buying volume decals at volume prices, which means the company making them is using "volume" material. I have had many occasions where I have had problems installing graphics on a simple substrate, simply because of cheap a$$ material. If the customer supplies the material, They can supply thw warranty. You may never know what crap they are handing you.
posted
I do installs for Boars Head trucks. These are real gold leaf laid over vinyl with a digital print on clear on top of that. A real neat process. Well, the bodyshop that paints the box truck and hires me to do the install pays $4000 for the vinyl kit. If I screw that kit up I expect to pay for it. It's part of doing business. I only get $700 for the install. The install takes four hours.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
When I do an install of customer-provided materials I typically charge the same amount I would if I were providing the materials minus the actual cost of the materials, regardless of wht the customer paid for them. For example, say the customer has a decal set that cost him $800. First, the $800 means nothing to me. If I were supplying the decals and know they would cost me $400 to replace, I would mark them up $200 plus charge another $150 to install. So the charge to install his decals would be $350, which allows me to make the same profit on the job as if I supplied the decals. If he thinks that's too much, I tell him that if he had bought the decals from me in the first place, he would have had the whole job done for $750. So he was burned by the supplier, not me.
I have never seen so many guys nervously pacing around a truck as I did today. I was there in the AM to install these decals and they kept fiddling with the pump panel, drilling more holes, etc. Finally at 3:00 it was time.
The light table idea worked like a dream! My main contact there has an eye like I do so he was put in charge to make the final call over the positioning. Then I created a door hinge along the long side and had two guys hold the decal off the panel until I drenched it with rapidtac original.They held the decal off the surface until I was able to burnish it.
The glue gripped nearly immediately, caught me by surprise. The lighting from above was not the best so after burnishing, one bubble was found. I test drove polking it on a scrap corner in this very thick material and the polk showed much like punched through paper with my fist. As soon as I requested a pin, QUICK, 3 guys dashed for their toolboxes like at a sportsday meet. LOL The pin showed on the scrap, but not on the actual job. Don't know why but I'm just glad.
The 2nd decal had to be installed ON the truck, no loose panel. But it was directly below the original and had to be lined up together, so I just got them to install the newly decaled door panel to the truck and made the reference against each other. It went alot quicker. But I still held my breath anyway.
The owner knew beforehand the onus was on him if the decal didn't work for some reason. I touched on the prewarning before install and when he breaks into a big jokefest, I know where he's coming from. It's an agreement we struck up long ago because he uses me nearly as frequent as a fulltimer employee and I was happy to see he agreed with me. But one never knows.. it's when you don't mention it that things can go wrong.
It turned out perfect! I get to practice holding my breath again next week on yet another unit! Yay...
[ November 17, 2007, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Donna in BC ]
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6736 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Just kidding. ![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
that's only if he totally won't take the responsibility. I think I would be weighing how much future business you could lose by telling him you are not comfortable with the job. It's really hard to say.
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