posted
Let him do your printing and you can make as much profit as you like. Bill
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thing is, he's put a huge ad in the paper & sells to the end user at this price. Everyone here is. I asked this sandwich guy the other day what he had paid for a digital 4' x 5.5' banner: $55.00
-------------------- Felix Marcano PuertoRicoSigns.Com Luquillo, PR
Work hard, party like a tourist! Posts: 2274 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's just nuts... Makes me want to go kick someone in the south side for selling to the end user that cheap.
I was talking with another sign guy yesterday, and we were talking about these so called shops that are the cheapest in town. His response is their buisness will die a slow death from not making any money...The problem is it kills mine in the meantime, just waiting for them to fall off the face of the earth.
As far as digital prints dropping in cost, it was only a matter of time. I've said it for years now, there are too many people out there that have jumped on the printing bandwaggon, and now they are sitting on a machine that they have to make a lease payment on...
I know of one guy locally that has a Mimaki 54" that has money in the bank, he ran out and got it, and all he's doing with it is printing an occasional beer sticker for someones garage fridge.
-------------------- Mark Kottwitz Kottwitz Graphics Ridgely, MD www.SeeMySignWork.com -------------------------- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein Posts: 746 | From: Ridgely, MD | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Capitalism at work. And at that rate, he's doing nothing but shooting himself in the foot.
The reality is that as the technology becomes cheaper, people who would not normally be in this business will be. Look at what the vinyl sign business had done to this industry since 1983 when the first Gerber Signmaker first came out.
I've got a guy here in town doing full-color 16'x8' coroplast signs for the local ballpark for less than $200. The price includes him doing all of the layout and recreating/digitizing all of the various logos as necessary.
That's why I tend to concentrate mostly on high-end work. While the other guys are beating each other over who's the cheapest, I'm just going to continue plugging along doing the fun (and profitable) stuff.
posted
I've said it before, and I'll say it again at the risk of pi$$ing someone off. They are sign whores and all they are doing is ruining the customer. The end user has the $1 per sq/ft taste in their mouth and when he does go belly up, he will go belly up, the customer will never think it is worth anymore. The problem is there is nothing we can do about them. One dies and another pops up like a bad dream. I have shifted our business towards a different market. The market with money. I keep my prices where they should be and if they don't like my price I give them the phone number of the current sign whore - It changes monthly. They will get what they pay for. If you are going to make it in this business you need to stay diverse and offer what no one else can. We are at a record year - over twice our average sales. I stay firm on price. For a little ho dunk sign shop in the middle of corn country we did over $56,000 last month alone. If you are interested in how we did it give me a call. I will share with you if you are not close competition!!!
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Jerry VanHorn: If you are interested in how we did it give me a call. I will share with you if you are not close competition!!!
Why limit the knowledge to a single person? If you post here, I'm sure it will help more than one person out.
Personally speaking, I am starting to get a little more busier, but the huge obstical that I have to over come is there is a local guy that everyone knows that has been in business for over 25 years. What gets me going is everyone knows him, but they know he is slower than Christmas. Every one that calls me always complaigns that he constantly misses deadlines. I never say anything negative about him, because as soon as I do, it'll get back to him, and I still do some occasional work for him, but thats beside the point.
I am currently starting to push the high end stuff, like sandblasted and routed signs, but getting the word out is the hardest part...
-------------------- Mark Kottwitz Kottwitz Graphics Ridgely, MD www.SeeMySignWork.com -------------------------- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein Posts: 746 | From: Ridgely, MD | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Jerry VanHorn: If you are interested in how we did it give me a call. I will share with you if you are not close competition!!!
Why limit the knowledge to a single person? If you post here, I'm sure it will help more than one person out.
Actually, I understand how Jerry feels and agree with him.
I've got a couple of competitors who lurk here but never participate. They are lowballers who would love nothing more than to be able to do what I do. The difference is that I worked hard to get my market to where I want it. Knowing their "lowball mindset", the last thing I want is for me teach them how to compete against me and screw things up.
That isn't to say I won't help them. I have in the past by being their wholesale source. This helps me to maintain and somewhat control market prices around here.
They'll figure it out eventually. But in the meantime, I want to get every penny out of it I can before they start another price war.
posted
You really can't worry about what the other guy is doing. You have to keep doing your thing, doing it the best you can, develop new tricks, new products, always looking forward for the next best thing, setting youself apart.
Since printing is pretty much a commodity that anyone can do, if you want to offer printing it has to be something no one else can offer. Like lightning fast service or design that will blow the competition away, or superior product.. and in some cases all you need to set yourself apart is an actual personality. Can't tell you how many times customers have called me and said "Man, you are so much nicer and easier to deal with than XXXX. That guy's an ass!"
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mike is correct by calling printing a commodity, it's been that way for many years. With the introduction of new printers and technologies in the sign business, this mentality has worked its way into this industry. So, even though I've been flamed for saying this in the past, charge top dollar for your advertising designs and enforce your copyright ownership. If the potential client doesn't like my rules, they can choose another sign company. Some will say this is holding your client hostage. I call it protecting my client's image which happens to insure my company's success with residual income. I too would like to hear what Jerry has to say, but I totally understand where he's coming from. You try to offer good advice, but you get flamed for it, are called a liar, or worse, your competition, who lurks here and doesn't beleive in sharing information in a positive way, uses it against you. That's why I beleive that there should be a protected area on this site where you should pony up the cash to gain access and/or you need to be voted in by your peers.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Same thing is happening around here... our local casino-owning Indian tribe, that I've done a lot of business with, called for a price for five 10'x50' banners. The banners are going to be up for a lot time so they needed to be on some pretty heavy banner material, hemmed and grommeted. I knew they were pricing it around, and it was a big order so I cut my price down as much as I could and priced it at around $3.75 a sq. ft.
The Indian guy called back and asked if I could drop my price any more, and they might would get them from me. I said, No, I'm pretty close, but I'd come out and spend a couple hours helping him put them up and wouldn't charge him... He said he'd see if he could get them to go with me anyway, since I'm local...
Well, they didn't. They got them from the other guys... Some outfit in Montgomery.. (Pat, Bruce?? LOL) I talked to the guy the other day and he said they were nearly half my price, he couldn't talk his bosses into going with me...
/Hey, Jerry, I'd like to sign up for your newsletter, too...
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Back when I first started in the sign business I was the cheapest in the area. It was all hand painting in those days. The local sign guys hated me with good reason too.
I lacked the confidence to charge properly. My overhead was low and in my mind I was making good money.
Now I'm the most expensive around. I don't sweat those around me who may charge less.
Only the names have changed.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've said it before, and I'll say it again at the risk of pi$$ing someone off. They are sign whores and all they are doing is ruining the customer. The end user has the $1 per sq/ft taste in their mouth and when he does go belly up, he will go belly up, the customer will never think it is worth anymore. The problem is there is nothing we can do about them. One dies and another pops up like a bad dream. i have been sayin this for a long .......and NOW WITH PRINTERS.....requires less talent then vinyl does....THIS IS WHERE IT IS GOING..... jerry your in a small town, people deal locally most of the time. iam down here with jon jantz....and my banner sales have ALL BUT DISAPEARED....becuase of a couple place near me....doin the RETAIL $2-3 SQ FT or less. we got the billboard company here LAMAR, and my clients who buy a months billboard pay $1-2 sq ft for them!!!! then when they need sign/banner THIS IS WHAT THEY EXPECT TO PAY. IF I CANT GET $4-5 SQ FT FOR A BANNER...I WONT DO IT.......that simple......i aint workin for nothin...... and its only gona get worse.....take a run over on signs101........most there are KIDS WITH $25,000 PRINTERS......
[ October 28, 2007, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
The very same thing happened to the offset printing world too. I used to own a AB Dick T-head printer press. It ran all the time every day, day after day. Then some one invented the laser printer. Suddenly every one was a desk top publisher. I hated that word especially when some one would walk in and announce " I am a desk top publisher". My press started running less. The stuff that was bread and butter turned into something anyone could do. The printing industry survived by getting smart and forming master mind groups to develop marketing techniques that worked. No more flying by the seat of the pants and feeding on each others lies.
The alternative was to search out large runs, work that a office girl could not do, and simply do a better job on what we did get.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
How's this one! In Schuyler County (where I live), the County purchased a printer/plotter and now they do the county signs and vehicles! I am paying (through my taxes) for someone's equipment to take work away from me! Not a good feeling! Two weeks ago an employee of a large construction company in the area told me my prices were too high and the owner was looking at a plotter so they could do their own trucks and signs! I is a "Jungle" out there!! I just look at the situation for a minute and go back to work. Right now I have more than I can handle.
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:he printing industry survived by getting smart and forming master mind groups to develop marketing techniques that worked. No more flying by the seat of the pants and feeding on each others lies.
I believe marketing and expanded markets is becoming more and more of a necessity for the independent shops.
posted
and hand painting is getting back where it was before VINYL))))))))))))
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Hehehehe....self-serve sign shops. I love it!!"
That would be funny, Glenn, if they didn't already exist.
There are small vinyl shop peppered across the map that you can walk in, pick out the fonts and colors, give them a basic layout and come back in a couple of hours to pick up your signs. You're never gonna find this stuff on the cover of Signcraft magazine, but there's enough of it out there that it does detract from established shops.
It really is like a fast food chain. The sign equivalent of a #1 would be black and red Arial Bold on either white coroplast. You can add the cheese (Yellow coro) for no extra charge.
The same mentality is running amuck with the digital prints today. Little or no design time, fast turn over and lowball pricing. No surprise that it's usually the same bunch who were cranking out the vinyls for cheap before they went to print.
...and for what it's worth...
So many times it has been said that these companies will shut down eventually. That may be true, but the real problem is that the machinery tends to get resold a lot cheaper when they do go belly up, only to land in the hands of someone who has even less knowledge of what it can do and how to price the work. It's a free market society and such is the way things go, but as long as these machines keep recirculating around your neighborhood, the proliferation of lowballers and those who continue to devalue a local market will persist.
It's hard to try to outlast a situation that is self replicating. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's Ok it can go lower and lower because that is what the percieved value really is by the machine operators. Just print and stick.
Even when I first purchased my edge I kept the prices in line with layered vinyl work or even airbrushing. The same look was achieved and the same value was achieved, just with a quicker turn around time and less harmful ways of obtaining that.
On a side note, I have a truck in my yard that I must have done about 8 years ago. It has a combination of thermal prints, vinyl and paint. On the main copy I rolled a two color fade with one-shot and it looks just as good as the day I did it. The thermal prints are getting replaced this week. They were faded greatly.
It's sad it has come to this. Ink is not safe from this fate either.
In a nut shell, if your self worth is reliant on your machinery, then your security is only as secure as your competitors next upgrade.
[ October 30, 2007, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'VE ALWAYS SAID JOKINGLY TO MY "SIGN FRIENDS" that Wallmart will soon be selling signmakers AT LOW PRICES !! ...I bet that's not far from the truth !!!!
posted
WAL MARTS HERE... got tshirt/licence plate AIR BRUSH set up in store.....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Jon i don't know who that would have been. I know there is an outfit in Prattville that is giving stuff away and some people in Montgomery are using them. Got another small guy that just bought a big old printer...Im going to call him and see how cheap he can sell printing to me, IM JUST AS EXCITED FOR HIM TO BUY IT AS HE WAS TO GET IT, lol, if yall follow me. Local guy, selling cheap! I LOVE IT.
what amazes me is I been doing this for almost 20 years, and people will go to someone thats been in business for 2? I just dont get it.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
A client brought it to my attention. The brochure reads, "FotoZoomer allows you or your customers to create full-color photos, posters, signage, and much more that catches a customer or business associates attention....."
posted
Joe Pribish hit on what some can make more profit on than the new gadgets. Hand painted paper signs are part of what we offer to offset some of our overhead. The high end market here in lower Fairfield County has never died, slowed somewhat, but kicks with old means and methods of sign writing to those who recognise and admire its virtues. Our Colorspan 72" printer is not as busy as we need it to be, but our traditional hand lettering, pinstriping, and hand carved signs are getting us through.
posted
AAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!! !@#$%! %$#@! I just got a call from someone who I did work for years ago, & who just confused me with Cheap-o signs. She was calling to Ok the (10) 18" x 24" full color coroplast signs @ $4.65 ea.
-------------------- Felix Marcano PuertoRicoSigns.Com Luquillo, PR
Work hard, party like a tourist! Posts: 2274 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Looks to me like you've got a new wholesale source. Let him print your stuff for you from now one. When he can't print anymore because his printer has broken down and can't afford to fix it, offer your gun to him so he can properly shoot himself in the foot.
posted
I was all set to go into digital printing about 12 years ago, but thought I'd wait until there was more demand and profit margin. I still find it more profitable to get prints wholesale and resale them than it would be to get the printer and make room for it. Of course, I'm not interested in 'busy work' and don't have an employee standing around with their hands in their pockets needing something to do. IF I had employees, more space and lots of need for busy work, then I might get into the game as well. But as it is, in my area anyway and with the jobs I get, there just aren't the conditions to warrant doing these in house.
By contrast, when I switched over from predominantly hand painting to vinyl 16 years ago, it was an entirely different story. I hand paint something now about 2-3 times a year at most, as there's just no call for it anymore in the context of doing work that's profitable.
You have to do what fits your situation & market best.
quote:Originally posted by Jon Jantz: a price for five 10'x50' banners...$3.75 a sq. ft.
If they got them in Montgomery I'm pretty sure I know where they got them and I'm pretty sure the guy that sold them charged them exactly what he should have.
but...at the risk of again being labelled as "that guy" here we go...
I would have bid these at about $2.75 psf.
Subbing them out my cost would have been less than $500 each, delivered...possibly as low as $400.
There are a lot of "IFS" that have to be met for that price (ready to use art, all ordered at the same time, adequate production time, etc.) but printing jobs like that aren't uncommon for us anymore.
I'm sending more banners out to be printed now than I do in house because I can let somebody else do the work cheaper than I can do it myself.
Don't fear the cheap printing...embrace the changes, find a way to profit on it, adapt and overcome.
[ November 01, 2007, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: Patrick Whatley ]
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Actually, I just did the math again and that price is a little high. I'd be closer to $2.30 psf but let me reiterate...there are a lot of IF's that have to be met for that price.
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Off Topic]](graemlins/offtopic.gif)
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Bash]](graemlins/bash.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic