posted
I'm always totally impressed by all the freehand art that I see on this Bullboard. I am trying to develop my skills in this area, but...let's just say...the results aren't too impressive at this point.
What I can do is design a lovely sign on the computer, and cut it in vinyl.
That is what I did for a client last week. However, when I showed her the design for the sign, she said that she had assumed I would be PAINTING the sign. I'd love to do that for her, but just don't have the freehand skills at this point to do that. Just being honest here...
Is there a way to cut a pattern on my plotter?... Paint inside the line? ... color-by number style.
Thanks for any advise you can give!
Jennifer
-------------------- Jennifer Craig Bright Morning Signs 3908-190th Pl. SW, Lynnwood, WA 98036 brightmorning1@msn.com Posts: 72 | From: Lynnwood, WA, USA | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
Jennifer.....cut out you sign in vinyl, then reverse weed it. Place it on whatever and fill in all the letters, peel off the vinyl and you have perfectly lettered your sign.
Vinyl paint mask works better than regular sign vinyl in that it peels off much easier and cleaner.
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Do a paper pattern of the design through your plotter and pounce it. Dust the image down on the sign and paint away.
With a mask you can be outside the image area and it'll pull off. With a pattern to follow, you'll still have to paint clean edges, smooth out the fills and maybe do the outlines/shadows with all brush.
Might take a little longer, but if you want to develop the mechanics of brush lettering, this may be a good time to get some of that practice in.
Have fun... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Jennifer, Why did this customer believe that the sign would be hand-painted? Her assumption should not cause you to apologize for your skills, or lack thereof. If you can design and produce an effective, well designed sign, then why is she expecting it to be paint? Paint has a certain lifetime, as opposed to vinyl which has a different, usually longer, lifetime. They are two different products and you need to let her know that you can do the vinyl.
It's as if you would feel bad telling her that you can't do silkscreen or neon! These really are different methods of making signs - we can't all be proficient in each discipline. Tell her that you can make a nice vinyl sign, or a (possibly) not so nice painted sign. Be honest.
Two things: Either she can have you produce the painted sign as a first effort and accept it for what it is, a work in progress, or she can wait a few years until you've practiced your craft and are proficient.
My guess - she'll settle for an entirely acceptable vinyl sign, and she will understand completely.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Because the client had seen several sandblasted signs that I DID paint, she assumed that I painted ALL my signs.
She is also interested in graphics that last a long time without "touch-up". I wasn't sure whether paint or vinyl would look good longer, and wanted to ask y'all before deciding what to propose.
Thank you for the insights and advice. If vinyl will last as long or longer than paint, I'll recommend vinyl for this project.
I am thankful to have the info about the masks, though, since I want to do more painting, but wasn't sure how to begin.
Thanks again!
Jennifer
-------------------- Jennifer Craig Bright Morning Signs 3908-190th Pl. SW, Lynnwood, WA 98036 brightmorning1@msn.com Posts: 72 | From: Lynnwood, WA, USA | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
Jennifer, sometimes I use a vinyl paint mask, some fine line tape, some vinyl lettering with airbrush fades, some freehand and carved elements together. Don't be intimidated by the purists. This place isn't signoholics.
-------------------- Mike gatlinburg Sign Crafters Posts: 1051 | From: Gatlinburg, TN | Registered: Oct 2005
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Jennifer, I agree with Ray. If you can replace your plotter blade with a pen, do that, using paper in the plotter & make your pattern. That is how I make mine! Then either use a pounce wheel to make holes in it & chalk to pounce the pattern onto your board, or, go to pat Catan's or any craft place & lay some carbon paper under the pattern & redraw it ontop the board. You will have a pattern to paint inside the lines. You will have a ball & increase your skills too!
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
With paint mask it's not much harder to produce a sign than with vinyl. You should try, it's a good start. You can for example cut the inside and the outline of a letter, but weed only the inside. Then with a roller you paint the inside, even make a fade with two different colours if you like. Then remove the mask of the outline and let the inside letter dry. Afterwards you can paint the outline and you only have to cut in along the inside letter, since you still have the mask in place. Make sure you always remove the mask when the paint is still tacky. Hope this makes sense.
posted
I use 80 grams/ sq meter grey/brown cheap paper, and use an ordinery fineliner fibertip pen I made thick enough with masking tape to fit where the plotter knife is set. Works as good as the rather expensive special pen and drawing paper
Then I place the paper upside down on the lighttable (use a window if you aint got one) and draw the lines with a a grafit pencil on the backside of the paper.
Put it in place, and draw over the front side with a rollerpen, the grafit from the pencil smittens and shows on most surfaces and colors and stay there until (and if) you wanna remove them with alcohol.
And yes, the I draw and gild by numbers. I use an artist brush to paint a thick outlines, then fill in once or twice with a bigger window painters brush.
Keep minimum wieving distance in mind about showing brush strokes
quote:Originally posted by Mike Faig: Jennifer, sometimes I use a vinyl paint mask, some fine line tape, some vinyl lettering with airbrush fades, some freehand and carved elements together. Don't be intimidated by the purists. This place isn't signoholics.
wus
-------------------- Snow's Sign Works 865-908-0076 snowman@planetc.com www.snowsigns.com
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message... Posts: 1640 | From: Sevierville, TN | Registered: Jul 2005
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So Ray, you don't think vinyl has a longer life than paint now? Brush marks appear after a few years, vinyl last for 8+ years now, even longer depending on when you consider what a "lifetime" means.
Maybe catalyzed two part automotive paint will outlast the vinyls of today, but a hand-lettered OneShot or Ronan will chalk/fade/streak in what, five years?
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Gene, the signs you saw fade were probably painted by someone who was trying to get $30.00 worth of paint from a $30.00 can by thinning thier paint too much. Not that that is true for all cases but its a common problem that causes paint fade. and for the most part paint wont peel or shrink anywhere near as fast as vinyl does, and Im not just talking A specific brand of vinyl
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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Actually the most common sign of fading today is 1-Shot thinned, reduced or straight from the can. However this can be resolved by not using Black, Green, Yellow, Red or Blue.
Good Luck
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
Arthur, I agree that that is still a sign. It also shows a lot of character. But if that happened within 4 years, do you think your customer would be happy with your product? It just depends on how long you consider it to be a valid, "readable" sign. Would you have guaranteed that sign for 40+ years? NO! Could you say you could probably read it in 20 years? YES! The "Higham Road" sign below it is still readable too but I don't think it would be acceptable to say that it is still considered within the frame of its "lifetime".
But, if we are discussing a sign from the point of view of the customer, which would you have more faith in - the newest vinyls or the newest (non-leaded) paints? Most of us don't letter with acrylics or two-part paints.
I love it when a customer brings in a sign and says "This is twenty years old, can you guarantee your sign will last this long?" I say "Sure, I guarantee your new sign will look just as weathered in twenty years from now, as that one does today! When did it start to fade?"
They NEVER know when it started its gradual decline. They often say something like, "Well, it's looked like this for about ten years now". Yea, and they also tell the Police they've only had two beers
Customers will know if your sign failed within 2 or so years, regardless of the "guarantee" you give them. Beyond that, they really understand that it is normal aging and wear and tear that is affecting their sign (and I am not talking about a total failure due to bizarre circumstances).
[ October 08, 2007, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Gene Golden ]
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Gene, I have no quarrel with anything you say. I honestly have no idea how long a (non-leaded) painted sign would last and it wasn't really fair of me to show a wall sign, since they always seem to last forever anyway – unless demolished!
The topic just seemed like a good excuse to show a picture of Eric’s work – there are so many unsung heroes of the brush. Eric wasn’t at his best with that sort bread and butter stuff, but his Old English fascias would leave anyone in stunned admiration. Even on the evidence of that less than perfect example of his work it should be possible to discern the hand of a master in those serpentine ‘S’s.
Longevity in a sign is not something I fret about too much. I’ve always been more interested in the aesthetics than the mechanics of sign work. When using vinyl I only ever use cast – and it lasts as long as it lasts. If I’m painting a sign I’ll use Keep’s, while I still have stock, and Wright’s when I don’t. If enamel doesn’t last as long as acrylic, I won’t loose any sleep, I’ll stick with my favoured enamel because I prefer the look.
Oh dear! That poor, sad old Higham Road sign! It’s of cast iron and in desperate need of a bit of love and attention.
[ October 08, 2007, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Arthur Vanson ]
-------------------- Arthur Vanson Bucks Signs Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England arthur@buckssigns.co.uk -------------------- Posts: 805 | From: Chesham, Bucks, England | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Arthur Vanson: If enamel doesn’t last as long as acrylic, I won’t loose any sleep, I’ll stick with my favoured enamel because I prefer the look.
A keeper of the brush. Arthur, you have no idea how much your wisdom can help this slowly dieing art. I commend you for your efforts (and talents that always amaze me) and stand behind you every step of the way! Thanks!
-------------------- Snow's Sign Works 865-908-0076 snowman@planetc.com www.snowsigns.com
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message... Posts: 1640 | From: Sevierville, TN | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
That is quite a compliment Jake and I very much thank you.
A couple of years ago I made two, vinyl on Palight 2001 foamed-board signs, for the lock keeper at Shiplake, in the style of the post 1948 British Railways station totem signs.
The lockie has since asked for an additional sign for the lock office door in the same style.
I’ve just finished it, only this time it’s made of ¼ inch oil-tempered Masonite, sealed with acrylic primer, painted and written with Keep’s Golden Brown and Wrights of Lymm Black and Gold Colour.
It will be interesting to compare how the jobs weather, I suspect the vinyl will win – but guess which looks better when new, and was fun – rather than a chore – to make?
-------------------- Arthur Vanson Bucks Signs Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England arthur@buckssigns.co.uk -------------------- Posts: 805 | From: Chesham, Bucks, England | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote: So Ray, you don't think vinyl has a longer life than paint now? Brush marks appear after a few years, vinyl last for 8+ years now, even longer depending on when you consider what a "lifetime" means.
Gene, If I knew a simple answer to that question, I could retire from the residuals.
Brush marks appear when you lay a brush to a sign. Unless you think someone's going to be sniffing it regularly, it's not too big a deal because it's not going to be seen up close and personal in most cases. (The exceptions would be things like pinstriping and motorcycle work which usually gets a close up view.)
The key word you used is "now". Arguably, SOME of the paints we have used over the years have changed and, like any other material exposed to the elements, it will have to be out there for a while before we REALLY know what the recent changes will do to longevity.
Does vinyl last longer? If you're using the good stuff (HP), maybe. Just like paint, there are different kinds of vinyls that will perform better or worse. Aside from the infamous shrinking stuff, I don't warranty any vinyls past the manufacturer's specs.
Throw in the factors of who's doing the job, how they thin paints, how old the materials are, how they have been stored, the related materials used like cleaners and preps, how much humidity and debris is in the air....on top of how much the paints and vinyls are re-engineered all the time...you're going to get different results from different sign makers.
Even if you spray 2 stage maroon or red automotive paint through a mask, it will eventually fade. The key is dealing with a customer who thinks a $400 sign is supposed to last an eternity.
If a sign I have done hasn't met "reasonable expectations", I back it up and will replace it if needed. If it's been out there for 15 years and the customer thinks I owe him something, that would qualify as an "unreasonable request"... ...and they can go elsewhere.
The paint vs. vinyl debate will never stop unless one or the other disappears or becomes decidedly more beneficial. Until then, as Jennifer is doing, there's no harm in learning to use both.
Have a better one. Rapid
[ October 09, 2007, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Ray Rheaume ]
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
We're believers in the transparency method of doing painted signs here. Layout your sign on the computer, print on transpancy film and project it on your piece. We use a stabillo and a straight edge to draw out the sign and because it is rare for us to do a sign with square edges any more the stabillo lines hold up to the sabre saw work. We do pounce patterns if we are doing multiples of a sign or on site lettering. I started out lettering billboards so it has always been kind of fill in the line painting for me. I really enjoy getting out the brushes and painting, it so much more fun then vinyl.
-------------------- Silver Creek Signworks Dick Bohrer Two Harbors, MN Posts: 236 | From: Two Harbors, MN USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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I've been away from Letterville for a few days, and I pop back in to see what's up...and, WOW,...there's my post from last week, still there...with a flamin' file next to it. Unbelievable!
I feel HONOREDthat my simple question should provoke so many responses and even a bit of controversy.
The pictures Arthur posted of the vintage wall sign and of his recent, and so beautifully done, "OFFICE" sign are clear illustrations of the reason I'm determined to improve my hand skills.
And on top of that I lerned my new word for today: signoholic...(Now...to use it in a sentence.... . I'll have to work on that...)
Thank you again for taking the time to help me.
I appreciate it!
Jennifer
-------------------- Jennifer Craig Bright Morning Signs 3908-190th Pl. SW, Lynnwood, WA 98036 brightmorning1@msn.com Posts: 72 | From: Lynnwood, WA, USA | Registered: Nov 2002
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