posted
I had a client request his "layerd logo file" over the weekend. It was a logo we created a couple years ago. He wanted to explore someone else producing his t-shirts. I thought of how best to address it. I sent him an email, here is what I came up with:
Mike
Sorry for the communication gap. This logo is your property, to use wherever you see fit, to reproduce whenever you want. Most other graphic art companies prohibit the use of the logo anywhere without their authorization...even newspaper or yellow pages. They even prohibit someone creating their own working files of your logo. Ask me how I know.
We want you to use the logo, to be proud if it. If I am not competitive, feel free to copy our work, you paid for the logo afterall. However, the files we own are the ones necessary for our equipment to produce things like truck lettering, t-shirts, business cards, etc. We have taken the time to produce these files for our usage. In some cases 6-8 hours. This time was never charged to you, but rather our own investment to make our future production work simpler for ourselves. These files are our "tools". You own the logo. I am happy to assist you any way I can within reason.
I know you probably have specialty tools you use in your line of work. Anybody can claim to be a waterproofer, but, would you loan your specialty tool, (perhaps one you invented to make your job easier), to a person in a similar business? Sure they can be cheaper, they don't have to take the time to create a special tool if they can get it free from someone else. Do you understand my side?
I know you were disappointed that I was not available when you called, as I was vacation. But, please be assured that I can fill any need you have. I would like to continue earning your business. Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Regards,
Rick Beisiegel Vital Signs & Graphics Award Winning Designs Since 1982
He called today, he understands and wants me to take care of his t-shirts. Kind of a happy ending
[ July 31, 2007, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3488 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Common sense obviously prevailed. I often ask people if they had a home built would they then own all the hammers, electric tools etc. after it was built. I am pleased you had a good outcome!!
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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Rick, I'd go with the K.I.S.S theory on this one.
Our proprietary sign production files are not functional to the end user & not released for other sign or t-shirt shops. Your logo is provided as a .jpg file for use in the recreation of production files by any other vendors. Our production files are also kept on hand for reorders with Vital Signs.
posted
Rick, be sure to understand that my comment is not to undermind all the work you spent on the files and your reluctance to hand over the files to another t-shirt company...but i have a question.
Did you sell your customer a logo, to use as they will? did you not create it and charge him for them. Don't it not belong to your customer? the propriaty files are not what i am talking about but the layered vector files that you designed in( i am assuming you used Illustrator, Corel or your sign program of choice). It kind of sound like holding the logo hostage.
quote:rick wrote This logo is your property, to use wherever you see fit, to reproduce whenever you want.
it seems like... if you go and buy a pair of pants at a store but you can only wear them when you are at that store is what you are suggesting.
we design logos that we get paid good money for, when we sell a logo an EPS vector file is given on disk for any marketing he might need to promote his business.
quote:Rick wrote It was a logo we created a couple years ago. He wanted to explore someone else producing his t-shirts.
be sure i am not flaming you. consider this...was he unhappy with you, wanting to seek another company...
just a thought!
Lovelady
-------------------- "We have been making house calls since 1992"
Chris Lovelady Vital Signs
NOW WITH 2 LOCATIONS! Tallahassee, Florida Thomasville, Ga.
posted
Rick..I think you handled the situation well.
2 thumbs up!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
I guess the biggest difference between me and the hostage takers is that I have no issue with someone duplicating our art work if they are so inclined.
On another note, you are right about his dissatisfaction with me. He felt that I didn't move fast enough when he wanted some shirts. He was right, I was on vacation.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3488 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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how dare you take a vacation)))))))))))))))))))))
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I can understand not giving sign layouts, color separations, plotter files, etc., but the logo itself should be something the customer can use once they pay for it.
When we do a logo for a customer, we charge them a fee which is in addition to the price of any signs we make. Once the logo is paid for, we give the customer a CD, with the logo in various file formats, including AI files. It's not my shop, but it's the same policy I would adopt if it were. Charge the customer enough for the logo in the first place, and it shouldn't matter if they take it somewhere else.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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Rick, I think you did a fine job in personalizing this issue with your customer. You appealed to his relational integrity and it worked to your favor. Good job!
As Russ and Chris state, if you charged him a design fee for the logo itself, it's probably his file to use - nevertheless, your solution [as demonstrated by the outcome] was better than an impersonal "blow it out your butt" approach.
Score 1 for the Rick-sta.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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As you said, you were hired by the client to design a logo.
The client is not entitled to retain the means by which you produced the design (paper, pencils, computer, etc.), nor is he entitled to retain the means by which you reproduce the design (computer, files, printer, screens, etc.).
He is entitled only to that which you have agreed to, and for which he has paid; a logo that he owns outright.
For anything beyond that, he should jingle his purse.
-------------------- Steve Purcell Purcell Woodcarving & Signmaking Cape Cod, MA
************************** Intelligent Design Is No Accident Posts: 900 | From: Cape Cod, MA | Registered: Oct 1999
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Rick, I agree 100% with your position. From what I understand, you never said he couldn't do whatever he wants with his logo... WITH whomever he wants... I'm the same way, I've created logos for people and after their job is done, emailed it to them in JPG and EPS format so they can continue to use it as much as they want.
However, if they call back at a later date to ask if I'll email the logo to a competitor in a specified format, I have a problem with that. Just because you designed the logo and charged him for it doesn't mean you have to be LogoDownload.com for the rest of your life... at least not for FREE.
I think you handled it perfectly and it worked out great.
[ August 01, 2007, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Jon Jantz ]
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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I think it was handled beautifully. I also really like Dougs addition; I may steal that Doug! When someone pays me for a logo I export it in about 6 different file formats but not Signlab or Gerber. I agree whole heartedly about not "loaning" your tools out; you never get them back.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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When I design a logo, or even redraw one because some other business is holding a file hostage, I provide the customer with a few versions of vector files and I get paid pretty well for it (way more than any "vectorizing fee"). Although before releasing any files I let them know that I can also provide them with just about any other service they need, taking on the task of handling everything for them so they don't have to worry about it!
I'm not just selling them a logo or providing artwork, I'm giving them the means to have their logo reproduced with 100% accuracy and consistency no matter who they're using for production.
Nothing's worse than seeing someone's logo out there around town, completely botched up because it was horridly redrawn from another terrible redraw which was redrawn from a bad copy that exists only because someone is either holding a file hostage or the customer doesn't know that, YES, we CAN share files with other services and not have any problems! Sure, there may be proprietary files needed to drive certain equipment but the programs that generate those files also export usable ones - except for the embroidery setups.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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rick did good. He didn't charge more for the logo, He just didn't wish to give his from of the media to another. He is doing exactly what the entertainment industry is attepting to do. That is control the media. Especially when the customer wants more for FREE!
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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There's nothing wrong with the way Rick handled the situation, but he could have followed suit with the entertainment industry and charged a "licensing fee" of sorts to supply usable artwork for that one purpose only.
It's kinda like the stock photography or clipart sites. You have some that are flat rate royalty free, one fee gets you unlimited use. There are others that are rights managed where what you pay is determined by how the image is used, how many times it's reproduced, the geographical market of the use and even the length of time the image is used, plus whether or not the use is exclusive. The broader the use, the more it costs to use.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Thought i'd jump in with my thoughts. I'm running a business. My building, computers, hard drives, employees, etc. all cost money to operate. For me to send along files every time a customer wants a "copy of their artwork" is for all intent & outcome, using my business, efforts and assets as a filing cabinet. In many other matured fields, this is viewed as a valuable service and is billed accordingly. There appear to be differing views above based on how people want to run their business, but I choose to be paid for my skill, investments & forthought.
-------------------- Ron Helliar Marysville Sign 11807 51st Ave. NE Marysville, WA 98271 (360) 659-4856 Posts: 263 | From: Marysville, WA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6724 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Helliar: For me to send along files every time a customer wants a "copy of their artwork" is for all intent & outcome, using my business, efforts and assets as a filing cabinet.
I don't see anything wrong with being a filing cabinet for the customer if they understand it's going to cost them each time they want something out of it. That's better business than sending a letter with a bunch of excuses for why I won't help them.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug Allan: Rick, I'd go with the K.I.S.S theory on this one.
Our proprietary sign production files are not functional to the end user & not released for other sign or t-shirt shops. Your logo is provided as a .jpg file for use in the recreation of production files by any other vendors. Our production files are also kept on hand for reorders with Vital Signs.
Perfect Doug! Can I use that? If so, can you send it to me as an MSWord file?
-------------------- Brian Snyder Sign Effectz Woodbridge, New Jersey Posts: 723 | From: Woodbridge, NJ USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thank you all for your thoughts. We all differ in how we operate our similar businesses, but the important thing is that we can do things to assist in turning a profit.
Sorry Mike, I disagree. If I got $2500 for logo design, I might agree. But infact our business relies on keeping the client happy. Not really looking for one shot deals.
Brian: Just do a copy/paste. No need for a MSWord file.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3488 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Scenario #1. If I DESIGN and build a logo for a client, and sell it to them as such, he gets a vector file, on disk, of the logo. That is what he paid for. If he later loses it, another copy will be burned and supplied for $25.
Scenario #2. If I end up REBUILDING an already existing logo from the client's JPEG, biz card, etc., the resulting vector file is my property, unless the customer pays me extra for it.....a separate charge from the actual sign production.
Scenario #3. If I design a sign for a client, and the client later wants a computer file to take somewhere else, to use by another shop, they either get a low-res JPEG or pay me for my time in produing the vector file.
Here's the way I look at it: If I design and build you a sign for $500 and later you decide to get Joe competitor to build another "identical" sign for your second location, of course Joe competitor will be able to make the same sign for $300.....he doesn't have to spend any time on creating a design if I supply a "ready made" one to him.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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That's pretty much how I work things, Wayne. If this client "owns" the logo they should have already been given it on CD in several formats. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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When I get the occasional request for their artwork on CD, I gladly burn a real small 72 dpi jpg to a CD. Talk about a waste of space. If this doesn't work for them, then the real truth will eventually surface as to why they need better artwork.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 912 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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joe customer comes in to get a sign for the truck or a sign on the building...we do the layout, he approves gets the sign and off he goes....he comes back and says hey i liked the sign so much i want to use it on my business card and yellow page ad, this is a example of how the design an files belongs to us and explain cost of selling the rights of the design to them, even a low resolution JEPG file.
what we try and do is offer in the begining a Logo and how they can use it in there other advertising markets. most people understand and buy the design right away, and a great way to upsell your work!
Lovelady
-------------------- "We have been making house calls since 1992"
Chris Lovelady Vital Signs
NOW WITH 2 LOCATIONS! Tallahassee, Florida Thomasville, Ga.
posted
the rules should be set in stone,, and posted / written every where. And reittereated at time of sale.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Curtis hammond: the rules should be set in stone,, and posted / written every where. And reittereated at time of sale.
I've got to do this. This has happened to me twice this year. Design a sign and the client automatically thinks they can use my files for absolutely everything. And it not like they are doing it maliciously either, they just don't know.
So how does this get worded? How does this sound?
Artwork created by (your company name here) is intended for signage approval only. Special files of said artwork can be purchased for an additional $xxxx(?)for client's unrestricted use.
I need to make myself a template..Have I forgotten anything?
Cheers...( good thread, BTW)
-------------------- Gerald Lauzé FeatureWorx Creative Fabrication 206-19148 27th ave Surrey BC Posts: 264 | From: Cloverdale ( Surrey ) BC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Our logo design fees offer unlimited use for all future client applications, and as such, are provided in all industry standard file formats.
In addition, limited use licensing is also available for a reduced price that covers creation of the custom logo graphics & is held on file here for all future sign work you request from this company. The unlimited use license may still be purchased at a later date if you wish.
Our logo design fees offer unlimited use for all future client applications, and as such, are provided in all industry standard file formats.
In addition, limited use licensing is also available for a reduced price that covers creation of the custom logo graphics & is held on file here for all future sign work you request from this company. The unlimited use license may still be purchased at a later date if you wish.
Doug, This seems like an excellent policy, whether you charge 200 or 2500 for a design. Simple and straightforward and up front. Working from the top down is far better than trying to work up from the bottom later. ...........
Historically, sign painters have undervalued design worth. With the appearance of the "graphic design industry," which is relatively recent compared to sign making, sign people have been playing catch up ever since. Years ago, someone came up with the idea of charging a "sketch deposit," and this was certainly a move in the right direction. At least your time was covered. Yet, many continue to give away design. I realize that some are, in the words of one old-timer, "just charging what they're worth." But if sign companies place little value on design, is it any wonder that clients do not want to pay for it? I believe, in some cases, the sign company is at least partially responsible for creating the cheapskate client. In "Frankenstein," the monster obviously did not create himself. When he argues that he only wants what everyone else wants, he makes a good point. What right did his creator have to despise him? This story is filled with tragedy and has an unhappy end. I'm not trying to say the cheap customer is always just a sensitive, emotional being who only wants to be loved. But do we not, collectively, the sign industry, share the blame for his creation, or at least his propagation? The "design industry" has positioned itself among the ranks of well-paid, skilled professionals. Because they are. And so are we.
In Shelley's novel, the monster went from being an intelligent, self-educated being, inclined to kindness, to a murderous brute. Yet, in the end he showed remorse and an innately good heart.
I feel that by continually and patiently educating our clients, being up front and clear about design policies, striving to produce a high quality product, and continuing to encourage each other, our story can have a happier ending.
And...we can have FUN!
Brad in Kansas City
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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when I was very young I watched Grandpa sell a sign. He talked to the client who came over, told him it would b ready in a few days and set to work. And when finised the client came over to get it. No design time at all. Just picked up his substrate and painted away. The design was already in his mind. Or, at least it came together as he painted.
Today we sit at a machine and design and develop a concept, let the client pick at it, get it approved, then goto work. Somewhere along the line that design part wasn't added to the bill. Was it Tradition, Custom Or just not bothered with because os some old method still lingering within?
Just an added note. I just had an image of him painting and how I watched him carry one every time an ocassional stray hair would try to ruin his cuts. Out came his mustache scissors.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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OK, this deal is pretty obvious. Since we are referring to the "old days", try this. If, in the past, you designed a customers logo, charged him accordingly and gave him a PMT and he came to you a few years later and wanted the pounce patterns that you used to letter his trucks...what would you do????
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
quote:Originally posted by Brad Ferguson: The "design industry" has positioned itself among the ranks of well-paid, skilled professionals.
In my experience, the "design industry" has become increasingly devalued by the business community due to the glut of "designers" coming out of school who are willing to work for peanuts. This coupled with the fact that secretaries are now being asked to do "design work" has created a perception that "anyone can do design". When you add in the fact that most designers now work as temps and not as full time employees, the picture becomes even bleaker.
-------------------- Paul Bierce - Designer pabierce@hotmail.com www.paulbierce.com Posts: 330 | From: Dix Hills, NY | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:In my experience, the "design industry" has become increasingly devalued by the business community due to the glut of "designers" coming out of school who are willing to work for peanuts. This coupled with the fact that secretaries are now being asked to do "design work" has created a perception that "anyone can do design". When you add in the fact that most designers now work as temps and not as full time employees, the picture becomes even bleaker.
Well, this is certainly not what I wanted to hear. I thought the pure design guys had it made and all us sign goobers were, for the most part, still trying to figure it out. Bleak, indeed.
I am very happy that there exists no easy-to-obtain software for doing knee surgery. I might have been suckered by low bid and have a problem walking now. More problem than I already have, that is.
I wonder if the picture in countries like Germany is better. There, I understand, a certificate or license is required for many trades. I don't think you can even work on someone's car in Germany without a mechanic's license. Some trades are regulated in the U.S., like plumber and electrician. Those people impact public health and are way dangerous without training. Orthopedic surgeon is another job you can't easily fake. But not designer. All you need are the wares: Hardware and software. Heck, in some shops you don't even need to know how to spell. Bleak.
........
George, I remember, more than once, a customer demanding "his" pounce patterns. He thought he paid for them and they were his. Little did he know that my pounce patterns were often on the "loose" side, if you know what I mean. Still, when I left Illinois, I was able to sell my patterns (and my phone number). I didn't get much, but they would be worth practically nothing now.
Brad in Kansas
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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This has turned into an interesting discussion. George, I feel like giving up those files is like handing over a pounce pattern. Good comparison.
I also agree that the industry is becoming quickly devalued because of the influx of "designers" Used to be that only talented people chose this field. Many had to show a portfolio BEFORE being accepted into art school. Now, it's whoever's daddy can afford to send their no talent kid through art school, so they can get 75K a year because the councilor told them so
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3488 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Wouldn't you know it, I had a former client call last week and ask for files from a previously delivered job. Having never established a policy on this sort of thing with them, I let them know that as a courtesy I'd supply the files free of charge this time, but all future requests would incur a nominal $25 charge to cover my time.
I really wasn't surprised when they went completely ballistic and started insisting that all the files related to their work were their property and how dare I charge them for them. When I reminded them that I was no longer their vendor, and certainly not their employee they responded by saying, "Yeah, well this sort of thing is the reason we don't work together anymore"
I guess the fact that I wanted to charge for my services must have been the straw that broke that camel's back.
[ August 13, 2007, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Paul Bierce ]
-------------------- Paul Bierce - Designer pabierce@hotmail.com www.paulbierce.com Posts: 330 | From: Dix Hills, NY | Registered: Jan 2005
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