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I don't know if this is just a local occurance but it seems to be happening everywhere where I am... chuches or 'places of worship' going into retail spaces??? I can drive down the street here in Salem and pass by a small retail strip with a sandwich place, a tanning salon & Victory Chapel?, then about about a mile down the road another church/group has taken over the old Plumbing Supply warehouse? they even have a 3 bay shopspace I would like, whats up with that? if it isnt a church its a lawyers office, in some of the prime retail space... storfronts sutible for any service or merchandise, why is the best retail space in town filled with lawyers and chapels, and the old catholic church is still empty?
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Salem? Maybe getting ready for Fall? Don't things get kinda spooky around there that time of year Ken?
-------------------- Sam Staffan Mackinaw Art & Sign 721 S. Nokomis St. Mackinaw City, MI dstaffan@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1694 | From: Mackinaw City, MI | Registered: Mar 2004
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I say kick 'em out! It doesn't matter that they pay the rent there; make 'em move out to the country somewhere or right to the center of town like the "First Churches". Kick out the lawyers too; they need to be in marble lined "professional buildings" with gilded names on the windows. Don't you have some PB&J sandwiches to make?
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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we just had a church move into an old circuit city buidling. I approached them with signs but they did not buy. They probably got a damn good deal this building has been vacant for several years....sure does look stupid though.
We have so many damn churches down here It would make you think the end of the world is coming. they move into retail alot also.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
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It's been very common around here to see small churches in strip malls for a number of years. Like Bob said, its a matter of economics. We see lawyers in strip malls too, same reason.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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We have two churches meeting here in two high school auditoriums. One meets at the local fire hall. I also seem to remember one in a storefront. I do think it has something to do with the cost of heating/upkeep on large old buildings. I have noticed quite a few churches that have been converted to antique stores, health clinics, even a private residence. There was a church and manse in Butler for sale for a few years for under $75K, sturdy brick buildings in good repair. I also see lots of old "elemenary" style school buildings being sold and converted to daycare centers. As for lawyers, I haven't noticed any change in their whereabouts. Love....Jill
[ July 31, 2007, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Jillbeans ]
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Some churches are just starting out and don't yet have the funds for a nice building. My church started out in an old(very small) bottling plant, about 32 years ago.
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The Roman Catholic Diocese in this area has been liquidating real estate holdings in order to raise cash. They're in need of that cash to pay off court-ordered settlements, to former alter boys, and vulnerable parishioners who had become victims of some of their priests' sexual misconducts.
Still wonder why some churchs are empty ?
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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ken, thats my point, the catholics are selling their churches cheap, so why not put a church in the church instead of in the old plumbing supply building. maybe i should rent the old catholic church and put a Salem haunted house attraction in it... might as well, the churches and the lawyers are filling up the retail space, whats the difference?
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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You can go to church right here at "The Church of the Free Human" You don't have to join...you only need to be. Doors are open 24-7 just like in the beginning. Straight monkey business spoken and no jive talk. Guaranteed! Don't need no steenkin' strip mall.
Crazyjack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Some of those non Catholic churches are store fronts because they lost their own building in law suites and secret legal procedures too.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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I don't Know kinda make sense to me having it the strip mall. Right next to "Bubba's Sport & Strip Club".. After a Saturday of getting ripped. I could go next door and do my confession and Hail Marys for forgivness. Tithing would a little low since I spent all my money tipping the strippers. Then Go to the Divorce lawyer 2 doors down since in my drunken stuper I "ACCENDENTLY" fell in the back seat of my car with one of the strippers.
After the lawyers office head over to FAST SIGNS and have them make me a "Will Work for Food" as the Strip mall lawyer wasn't that good and I lost everything in the insta court via WEB-Cast hearing. After an Hour of hanging out on the corner and no work head over to "Wang Chungs Florest,Firearms and Pawn" Trade off my watch that I hid from Judge Judy and get a Star Arms 32 pistol. They will find me dead in the loading bay of K-Mart.
The last day of my life all spent in one parking lot.
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Ken, Thank your lucky stars that this group didn't survive and move into a strip center near you. Time: 1966-67 Place: Grant Ave. North Beach, San Francisco, CA 2nd Floor Office Space. Peace Sign in one window. Badly hand lettered text in other window. Free United Church of Kindness for Under Priviledged Souls I saw it daily for months before the initials kicked in. Lights were on day and night. So something was happening there.
[ July 31, 2007, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: William Holohan ]
-------------------- William "Irish" Holohan Resting...Read "Between Jobs." Marlboro, MA 01752 email: firemap1@aol.com Posts: 1110 | From: Marlboro, MA | Registered: Dec 2001
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-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Well, some people have a lot of time to think!
I'd say, let the lawyers and churches sit next to each other, and yes, let them charge less for fees; and maybe there will be lawyers that pray and priests that obey the law!
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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And then some people buy up the old churches and turn them into sign shops This is our home & shop, built in 1894 (and no, we are not the original owners)
-------------------- Murray MacDonald OldTime Signs 529 Third Ave S Kenora, ON. P9N 1Y3 oldtimesigns@gokenora.com Posts: 781 | From: Kenora, ON | Registered: Jan 2003
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Churches are not buildings. A church is a group of people, not a stucture. Money and attendance drive where a congregation meet. The trend I see in warehouse "churches" is to provide a multi-purpose room to have servies at 11:00 am, Set up volleyball at noon, Basketball at 1:00, set up a contemporary music band for the 2:00 service, etc...
"Church" is nothing like I remember it. Is it any wonder there has to be a gimmic to draw a crowd. I get a kick out of people who complain about churches without actually being a member of one.
Maybe with all the self rightousness they have, they could begin a churh too.
-------------------- Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Posts: 1328 | From: Centreville, VA | Registered: Oct 2000
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That is very classy, Murray. It's the sort of image I got from Cpt Ken's first mention of empty churches. We realize that a church essentially is the people and not the building. But some of the buildings are nice and should be preserved, if only for the architecture and construction skill. So if one of these gets converted into a commercial space, I wonder what happens with the notion of "consecrated ground." If it has to be un-concecrated, who does that?
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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The Lutherans held a formal service in 1960, took their bell and other sacred items and moved up the street to a megachurch. The building went through many owners and uses before we bought it in 1999. No bell in the steeple, but we have some fabulous displays. The daycare across the street loved our santa's bottom half hanging over, as he climbed into the steeple. Our current xmas display has a group of victorian carollers - complete with great speakers and fabulous music. It sounds great - even at -40C.
-------------------- Murray MacDonald OldTime Signs 529 Third Ave S Kenora, ON. P9N 1Y3 oldtimesigns@gokenora.com Posts: 781 | From: Kenora, ON | Registered: Jan 2003
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take it easy kids this is not intended to be a roundtable about the definition of a church, but more of an observation of the structure of 'downtown' I believe putting the meeting place of the congregation in a retail space, does damage to the retail flow of the shops around it.
Murray that is a lovely building you have there. you guys open sundays?
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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The home I grew up in was eventually bought by the "Moonies" and turned into their church for several years.
After that, the state bought it for living quarters as a transition home for low-level offenders of the justice system. Now, a private family bought it recently and trying to keep the restoration intact. The original owner was "Anne Page" and her husband was a horse veterinarian. We tore down the barn in back when we moved into it in the early 60's and turned the yard into many gardens and playing area. It had fireplaces in the bathrooms and butler's pantries, maid's stairs and a dumb waiter which my father did remove to update for a larger kitchen. It had/has a really neat turret of stone that we used to stand in to watch the fireworks.
Yes, it was a house of many fond childhood memories.
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Mikes Mischeif: I get a kick out of people who complain about churches without actually being a member of one.
Maybe with all the self rightousness they have, they could begin a churh too.
Well said!!
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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I was going to join a local church, but walked in the wrong door, I still have 10 tanning visits left...
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Some places have zoning for business, which would exclude non profits. A church might utilize the parking on Sunday when other adjacent stores are closed.
I like the warehouse church or school auditorium church concept. A building that already has insurance and maintenance and custodial duties covered makes it easier to do what needs to be done without the financial needs that a building requires.
One of the old churches in our town is the health food store.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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maybe this is something for the local zoning and planning people to address, why not take 1 of those old church buildings, and make it a communal church... letting a number of church groups split up the time used making it more cost effective, and allowing the downtown to put retail shops in the business zoned areas. I think it would incress downtown business and lot the community to thrive, and let worshippers, worship in an arcitectually correct building, maybe even some stained glass instead of storefront glass abd vertical blinds. Then maybe the sign guys can get back to making carved/gold leaf signs with smaltz for the churches instead of replacement backlight box sign faces.
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Put the churches in one (old) church location to free up more retail space, because we all know the almighty dollar is far more important than the freedom to worship where we chose.
Maybe you would like to see a "NO WORSHIP ZONE" in your town, but I don't mind if a group meets in a well kept retail area. At least there are no late nite bar fights and streetwalkers on the weekends.
Worshippers could care less about arcitectually correct buildings. They care about thier relationship to a higher power. Stop Hating.
-------------------- Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Posts: 1328 | From: Centreville, VA | Registered: Oct 2000
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Mike, take a break, I aint hating anyone, and I am not even talking about a "no worship zone" where does that come from? You guys gotta take it easy and stop thinking everyone is bashing the 'church' and Rusty, Salem is a thriving modern city now, we havent burned any witches in 300 years, and we even let black people and white people ride on the same bus here.
I guess some people miss the point no matter how elequently you deliver it. My point: the buildings that use to house the congregations are now empty, vacant buildings leaving a hole in the communities where people use to walk to church, meanwhile downtown the shopping district, is brioken up, so good God fearing citezens can't go downtown to shop and get a bite to eat with the family and stroll through town window shopping instead they are driving to the mall and giving there money to big corporations and eating at McDonalds instead of patronizing their fellow paritioners that have a small shop downtown between the tattoo parlor, the lawyers office and the church of light. I get a kick out of people that say they are religous, but quickly pass judgement on someone they dont know, calling them haters, or since I am from Salem I must worship the devil.... get a grip.
This is not a religous post, its about zoning.
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Once again, we can see the passion these off topic posts are capable of generating. This is especially true when it comes to topics like politics and religion.
I understand that passion, but the passion we all share here is for something called Letterheads. Why waste bandwidth dicussing issues that really have no answer, and only generate bad feelings at best?
Time to put this one to bed.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
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