I realize the topic I'm introducing may only concern a handful of people, but here goes. My partner, Robert Frese, and I have been specializing in gold leaf window lettering for quite some time. Over the last couple of years, we've noticed the paint outlines (and sometimes the gold leaf itself) lifting off the glass in little blisters or bubbles a day or so after the job is completed. Except for the blisters, the rest of the lettering seems stable and perfectly adhered to the glass.
I assure you that we are fanatics about meticulously cleaning the glass beforehand with several applications of Bon Ami, so I'm pretty sure glass contamination isn't the problem. No doubt the fault lies in the paint we've been using, a mixture of One Shot lettering enamel, Ronan Japan Color, quick rubbing varnish or quick gold size.
I should explain that Robert began adding One Shot enamel to the traditional Japan/rubbing varnish mixture many years ago to improve flow, opacity and durability. After letting the painted outlines dry overnight, Robert would water gild over them the next day with excellent results.
We're wondering if the problem could be One Shot's more recent lead free formulations. After some experimentation, I've found that I don't have the blistering problem when I eliminate the One Shot. I have the feeling that One Shot just doesn't cure hard enough on the glass to avoid penetration by the water size. (By the way, I tried adding One Shot hardener and still wound up with blistering a few days later!)
Unfortunately, I'm back to the problem Robert was trying to solve by adding One Shot in the first place... the traditional Japan/rubbing varnish mixture is grainy, not very opaque, pretty gummy after a short time in the brush, and not very durable when scrubbing away the excess gold.
What do others use for outlining single gild glass lettering? We need something that flows well in the brush and is very durable so that we can water gild over it and clean off the excess leaf without any trouble... or blisters.
Any thoughts or suggestions, folks?
Thanks!
Bruce
-------------------- Bruce Buckley Chicagold Sign Co. 2252 N. 76th Ave. Elmwood Park, IL 60707 Posts: 3 | From: Berwyn, IL | Registered: Apr 2007
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Just today I said something very similar to a friend while I was striping a truck in regards to 1-Shot, it seems like the solvents I use for flow wasn't as compatible as they were yesterday. I know this may seem weird to some but I've been using whats recommended but just today it was something entirely different as the paint flowed but wasn't getting tacky at the right time, it was almost too creamy and didn't even tack up on my brush. The entire 1-Shot system changes or at least puts me through changes every time I open a new can. I truly believe they have their heads up their arse. I thought about totally changing my system and going back to HoK many times just in this year but the catalyst bothers the heck out of me during my usage as that stuff is dangerous. Heck maybe I'll try the EasyFlow paint by Kustom Shop or back to HoK and let it kill me.
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Bruce, Dekor back-up black or ochre is available from Letterhead Supply, a Merchant here on Letterville. Comes in tubes and quarts. You can brush it or screenprint it. Screenprinted, it's bullet-proof. Thin with turps for brushing.
btw, beautiful work you guys do!!
John
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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I think the mixing of several ingredients is the problem in a nutshell. I would try using One Shot alone or another lettering enamel. I've never been overly impressed with Japan colors (or drier) and adding quick rubbing varnish to the mix doesn't seem quite right.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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I think John's suggestion of using Percell's product is the way to go. It also works well with a little hardener added.
What are you guys finding holds up for a clear back up though? Do you have something that's lasting years in the sun? I've been embarrased by the failures of the clears I've used in recent years. Wish we could still get that old Dulux 190.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6724 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bruce, I'm a little confused. You say it's the outlines and you are concentrating on the addition of One Shot as the problem, yet you also said that sometimes the gold itself is blistering. If the gold is sometimes blistering than the problem has to lie somewhere else. If that is the case, then the addition of One Shot is merely aggravating the problem. There have been a number of discussions on here regarding problems with glass and contamination from silicone additives, the natural silicone found in glass, Rain-X and whatever. This stuff gets down into the pores of the glass and rear thier ugly heads on down the road. Try using the search feature. I seem to recall one discussion years ago involving contamination of glass that nothing, not even Bon Ami seemed to remove. Of course I also forgot the remedy...if there was one.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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...I second the DECOR recommendation. Thin it w. terpentine. It holds up better (to vigorous burnishing) than anything else I've tried. It drys really quick. I figure, If it was good enough for Rick G., why use anything else? I've been doing black outlines w. it, and it is more opaque and drys faster than sign enamel. ...I think DECOR is the same material as synthetic screen ink, only in tubes. The ocre is outstanding for "single gild" gold back up. Decor was available in white, grey, ocre and black. Now just the latter two (as far as I know). ...Rick, (unless it will never be in sunlight) I don't use clear outlines anymore. I out line everything in black decor instead.
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6724 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Wow! Thanks, guys! I'll have to try the Dekor.
In answer to any confusion, the problems we've had with the gold leaf itself blistering is when the backing paint also contained a portion of One Shot. I have also used One Shot by itself for outlines and backing when doing a colored outline job (maroon, green, etc.) and have had the same problem with bubbles appearing in the outlines and gold. One job I did with black One Shot mixed with hardener for the outlines ended up blistering as well. Just the other day, Robert began experimenting with black Ronan lettering enamel on glass and, a day or so after water gilding over it, he wound up with the same bubbles! I really think there is something about the way lettering enamels are formulated that makes them incompatible with the process of water gilding on glass.
I'm wondering if it may be that there is some shrinkage as the enamel dries which causes these pesky blisters at where there is a weak spot, or maybe a speck of dust or minute scratch on the glass got in the way. I've noticed that freshly cured lettering enamel is much like a film of stretchy vinyl or plastic when removed from the glass with a sharp razor... it's like a blanket of skin that is just lying on the glass.
On the other hand, dried Japan color and fast dry screen ink is reduced to a virtual powder when scraped off the glass. It seems the latter two must have a different molecular structure that keeps them from blistering since they seem to dry much harder than lettering enamels.
Anyway, thanks for reading my ramblings... maybe along with the Dekor, I'll try other colored screen inks for outline and back-up whenever a little color is indicated.
All the best!
Bruce
-------------------- Bruce Buckley Chicagold Sign Co. 2252 N. 76th Ave. Elmwood Park, IL 60707 Posts: 3 | From: Berwyn, IL | Registered: Apr 2007
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Rick Glawson told me of gold and paint coming off modern glass. He said new glass is polished to a degree formerly called optically clear for scientific instruments. He had started polishing new glass with 3 micron alumina polishing powder to give some tooth to the surface for the gelatin size and paint, as well as cleaning with bon ami. The abrasion is only visible under magnafication. By the way, if you run out of cake bon ami be careful when swithing to powder form that the one you get is pure, same as cake but not compressed, and that it contains no silicates . Daddy Finegold's advice lives another day, let's keep it going!!!!
-------------------- Pete Payne Willowlake Design/Canadian Signcrafters Bayfield, ON
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p.s. I know one shop found that when using screen printing enamels on glass prior to silvering all the water and solution would lift much of the ink off the glass, unless it was left for 5 days first, then no probs, and one shot has only acheived 50% of it's eventual adhesion to ANY surface after 5 days, and 30 days to total cure and that's the old formulation!
-------------------- Pete Payne Willowlake Design/Canadian Signcrafters Bayfield, ON
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I always use the Back up Black from Letterhead Sign Supply with 5% 1-shot hardener added, you can screen or brush with this just as easily as 1-shot. This will be dry enough to water gild in 30 minutes with no need to return the next day to finish the job. One shot just does not have enough body to stand up to anything in this situation, & the drying time is way too long. I have not varnish outlined a Gold job on site for years as that is the first part to break down & take the outlines with it,due partly to lazy window cleaners using too much soap & constant use of a squeegee. There are no good clears for this & just because it says you should do this in a book is not a good enough reason . Paint or screen the outlines & wait 1/2 hour or so, then lightly rub the paint with 0000 steel wool to knock of the edges, clean with a little window cleaner & add a little soap to the size to pull up to the line, back up with the same mix, clean off excess with a John Jordan brush & Bob's your uncle. Been using these methods for years now with no problems. I did have a window at Disney once that did blister overnight, we thought that a window cleaning person was the problem, but after scraping & doing the job again it was obvious that the glass was the problem, silicons etc. Hope this helps, keep that one shot away from the glass.
Try adhering a small no sqeegee logo/sticker to the back of a letter & mention to the owners that it should only be wiped with a damp cloth .
-------------------- John Studden Valencia Signs & Graphics Valencia, CA Posts: 30 | From: Valencia, CA | Registered: Oct 2001
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So much solid advice above but I have to mention that according to "The Boss" the old King Cole Black was simply a mixture of quick rubbing and japan black (which one of the blacks would only be a guess). I'd sure think about it before adding any of the standard lettering colours to a gold job. They fade quick to boot!
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Another old standby as a backup was Stazon neon blockout paint. Nasty stuff I'm told (has to be thinned with benzine) but according to the experts of earlier times, it was quite effective. Of course, there's no telling how much that product may have changed as well.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I wouldn't recommend the Stazon because it will turn to a milky gray over a period of time. It is also very hard on brushes and gums up quickly.
You've heard from some of the best in the business.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Just a couple more thoughts. Stazon formula changed about 20 years ago, making it unsuitable for backup. Ditto on using the backing enamel, with hardener. The fomulations of Japan varnishs went synthetic some years ago and are not suitable for glass adhesion. The only Japan colors currently available are not ground as fine either because the primary users don't need them that fine a grade (not signpainters by the way, we don't buy enough to impact the industry). The only reason to varnish is to give another layer of protection for the window washers to attack before they get to the good stuff. Nothing currently available is up to the job. Lifting of the gold and backing can be caused by too much gelatin on the glass which will blister in the sunlight but not be detected because it is clear. Alkyd enamels will allow surfactants to creep under them and lift them off the surface, typically on glass and hard automotive finishes. This has been especially troublesome since sweet lead has been removed from the paints because that aided adhesion enough on the slick surfaces to improve durability. Both amonia and alcohol will remove paint and are common additives in window cleaning soluitons. Abrasion is the key to giving a surface enough tooth for improved adhesion. As to BonAmi, be sure you have the cleaning POWDER not Cleanser.
[ July 21, 2007, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Kent Smith ]
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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My sincere thanks to all who have weighed in on this topic... it's pretty obvious all of us has a deep love for gold leaf lettering, and every effort we make to keep this timeless art form alive will be of benefit to everyone involved.
Just a couple of follow-up questions for Kent:
When you refer to "backing enamel with hardener", are you referring to the back-up black from Letterhead Sign Supply or some other product?
Since Japan varnishes are now synthetic and not suitable for glass any longer, what is? In other words, what do you now use for single-gild outlines and back-up at Smith Sign Studio?
Your help is deeply appreciated!
Bruce
-------------------- Bruce Buckley Chicagold Sign Co. 2252 N. 76th Ave. Elmwood Park, IL 60707 Posts: 3 | From: Berwyn, IL | Registered: Apr 2007
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Sorry to not answer sooner, I have been on a jobsite. Thanks for the confidence Ray. Sometimes my comments are unintentionally cryptic but I hope the information is helpful.
Backing enamel is the generic description for what others may refer to as Dekkor, Sericol, Fine Gold Backing and the Letterhead Sign Supply backing enamel. Currently, the one from Letterhead Sign Supply is the most advanced evolution of the paint available for backing gold leaf.
The deterioration of the quality (ie going synthetic) of the clear varnishes is exactly why I do not suggest anyone do single gild mattes now. I have had some luck with 1Shot Fast Size but I am not sure that it will not lift during water size application, especially if you add detergent. Rick and I were seeking someone who was still "cooking" varnishes just before he died and there were none with US distribution at that time. I am still looking and testing but don't have reliable results yet.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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Gentlemen all.... Wow! Thought all the Gilders were gone. Shows to go ya! I've learned some great things from this thread. I have used Stazon my entire time in the biz. Think I'll branch out a bit with this new info.
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