posted
My son began working for a tree trimmer, just last year, at the ripe age of 17. I think the guy started him out at $9.50 but has paid him several $100 bonuses and raises along the way. I think Josh is now making $12.50 an hour plus a company truck, health insurance, and bonuses.....and he is now 18 and just married two weeks ago.
But my son is mature way beyond his years and is a faithful, hard worker. I see nothing wrong with starting someone off at $9 an hour with a probationary period because, frankly, alot of employees aren't worth shucks after the first few days. But if you get a good employee, like Doug did, recognize and REWARD the fact....don't take advantage of them. I like what someone said above....I want an employee who works WITH me....not FOR me.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
I think having an employee come on board and make $30K in a year resulted in me making an extra $30K... but this is not because I literally made an extra dollar off every dollar he made on each job he worked on...
while I tried to make sure between overhead, labor & material costs that there was always profit...
...one of the biggest factors in an employee helping an employer make more money is freeing up your time to "work on the business, instead of in the business"
Even with a savvy business person at the helm, & all the right infrastructure in terms of shop equipment, supplies on hand, & your existing marketing, or brand recognition... with no help, you can hit a ceiling, like I did.
But once you get help... all your previous work in establishing an awareness of your company, and developing an organized infrastructure starts to pay off finally... PLUS you are now free to continue doing more behind-the-scenes work that will be the support systen for further growth.
[ July 17, 2007, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
after doing homework on some of the issues in this post that were off topic but related. this is what i found after meeting with a business consultant From Valdosta State University (Free service, check your local university for this oportunity). The requirements or what he called Terms of Employement were not harse but should be met in the First day or week of employement.(keeping workspace clean, showing up to work on time, correct use of tools[tape measure, twezzers, snapknife, skill saw]minimal mistakes after training period, following direction, reading a work order) included in those terms can be a statement that no sign work, lettering, fabricating or installing of signs can be done by the employee out side of "Vital Signs" during the term of employment. these is a ligitamate terms for any trade. there also has to be terms of disapline, if you do this..this is what will happen. Now i also found out that in Florida & Georgia, the No Compete after Employement will not hold up in court! also these two states have a no falt laws were the employer or employee can be terminated or quit at any time for any reason. they can file unemployment on you but if you document misconduct based on your terms. you can generaly keep this from happening.
We have seen a direct need for an employee hand book that lays out all the terms, insurance, retirement, workmans comp laws, insetives and goals and diapline. also written and and posibly illustrated procedure book. how to lay vinyl graphics, prep materials, installations...ect, that could be used by the employee.
we can and do offer to a employee health plan, retirement IRA, they are covered by law with Workmans Comp, they drive a company vehicle while on the job. milage is paid if you use your vehilce. with greater responsbility comes compinsation(money). I do know if you start insentives like boneses and profit shareing that you have to stick with it and the goals have to be measurable,...you do this you get this. also by law you must pay time half for over time. so if an employee works late he get this, it is a Federal Law. there is no force overtime. you can also offer Comp time in place of overtime.
Russ; what goals are set for you by your employer to increase pay. what was your reqirements for starting pay.
Glen; what kind of goals to you set for your employes to give pay raises. what requirements do you need for a certain starting pay.
TJ; profit sharing sounds alot like bonses but not based on performance and can be regulated by attenance?...interesting. this is a good insentive.
the job market in my area is slim on experienced sign people. The ones that have been hired come to me with no experience in signs, and often cannot read a tape measure...this is what i have to work with. even with drug testing, I stuggle with alchol and drug abuse on the job or coming hung over. problems without safe driving records (can't put them in my company vehicle). wanting to bring there cell phone to work and talk allday to their buddies. i have sought help hiring through the department of Employement, Local Hiring services, with the same results. How can i offer insurance, retirement, insentives ect...for these behavors. if i could find that guy that could be passionate about the sign industry, i would love to mentor, share my skills. but most young people just want a job, were is my money. I have had several people work for me that have gone on to other fields, i was the in between job. and that was ok cause I new it hiring them. I even have been approch buy someone that closed his sign business. He asked me for a Job. He wanted a % of each job that he worked on and an enormous pay rate...hhmmm why did he close his shop anyways?
I think so much of this topic that i think it should continued and to be disscused from both points of view. How do you find work in the sign industry as an employee? Were do you find experienced help for your sign company? As an employer what goals or insentive do you set? As an Employee do you need insurance, IRA, Finacal insentives? as an employee when do you or did you make that jump into owning your own business and loose all your benifits and steady pay?
Lovelady
-------------------- "We have been making house calls since 1992"
Chris Lovelady Vital Signs
NOW WITH 2 LOCATIONS! Tallahassee, Florida Thomasville, Ga.
posted
I agree Chris, that this is a valuable topic for many of us. Thanks for checking back in.
I think you have encountered some real challenging set-backs. I would like to think I will never put up with some of what you have mentioned, but I also realize that once you take on growing beyond what you can ever do alone... you might have to make various sacrifices to deal with that fact. It's a tough tradeoff.
Both consultants I work with, & several good books have mentioned core values as an important part of the foundation on which you build your business. This concept, as I understand it, is to serve to remind us of our identity as a business, and a business person. This should guide us in what sacrifices we do, or don't make for the business, & what evolution or deviation of our business plan we do our don't make regarding the customer experience, and our own work environment.
I think if you choose to have an efficient, self motivated, & driven team of committed sign professionals who focus on the quality of the work & the workplace, as well as the professional relationships on both sides of the sales counter... then that is what you will have.
Just like my childhood theory of an artist from the youngest age that I received acknowledgement for supposedly being one... if you strive to create something beautiful... just look at it, and if it's not... then you know you're not done yet.
Sure, that's an over simplification, but we do have to identify what will lead us closer to meeting our expectations and what will not. There are times when a retreat is better then an advance, so as much as possible, don't waste time with the wrong people.
posted
Doug, that has been my point from the begining, my not wasting time with the wrong people thus the quick turn over. people will tell you what you want to hear but action seems to be lacking.
True core values are the foundation of any sucessfull company, and employees must fit in that frame work that you as the owner has established.
a constant work on these values, terms of employement and a nurturing envoirment for growth, procedures in production, we are constantly working on these and will continue to.
Doug, I want to keep on topic.
How are you finding your employees, what are you baseing there starting pay on, and what are the goals you are setting for there advancement in responsiblity and pay raise?
Lovelady
P.S
quote: Doug wrote I think you have encountered some real challenging set-backs. I would like to think I will never put up with some of what you have mentioned, but I also realize that once you take on growing beyond what you can ever do alone... you might have to make various sacrifices to deal with that fact. It's a tough tradeoff.
Pleases clearify..i do not want to misunderstand what i think your saying.
[ July 22, 2007, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Chris Lovelady ]
-------------------- "We have been making house calls since 1992"
Chris Lovelady Vital Signs
NOW WITH 2 LOCATIONS! Tallahassee, Florida Thomasville, Ga.
posted
I am only at the early stage of my new chosen path of being an employer. I've only had 4 employees & 2 worked out, while 2 did not work out. Of the 2 that worked out, the first one moved back to his home town, but plans to return. the other one is in his 4th month with me, has received 2 raises & various bonus perks along the way. Both of them started out at $12.50/hour.
I advertised in 2 newspapers & 2 on-line venues when my first successful employee was about 90 days away from his departure. I spent a fair bit of money on that, but didn't get any qualified candidates except 2 former business owners. Like in your case, I felt their expectations may have been too high, but more importantly, I felt they represented too high a risk they would go off & set up shop down the street. I'm not afraid of competition, but I sure don't need to train some newcomer to Maui of all the pricing & other local considerations that will help them compete with me... I want people who may grow into starting their own shop in 3 to 5 years, not 3 to 5 months.
I think you are right on the money with your comments about getting things in writing, like job descriptions, advancement expectations & incentives. I don't have it together thet much, but I hope to some day. Right now I try to keep good communication channels open which includes comments from me ragarding my plans to reward my team for their increased productivity & profitability. I enjoy training, so when I have the time, I will show people things even if it's not currently what I need their help with. In this way, I might find that someone is better suited to a task, then I might have guessed, or has more natural curiosity or drive to learn some things rather then other things. My current guy has years of experience in the fabrication environments of sign shops... but not so much on the computer. I have taught him to run my Edge, inkjet & 3 different plotters. I've also taught him quite a bit of the basics using Signlab, Flexi & Omega to output my designs to those machines. I also taught him enough about Photoshop & Illustrator to help me start setting up files with vehicle or building photos & then scaling some of my design work on to those drawings.
Since he has proven to be a very fast learner on all those computer skills, I asked him to help do some layouts. I didn't expect him to do as well as quickly on layouts, but he surprised me, so I'm glad I didn't wait a year to offer him that opportunity.
Because the fabricating, welding and spray booth work he did previously was done in your more typical cluttered & messy shop environments, he has had to adapt to both the required level of dust free cleanliness that is optimal for digital printing, and the additional neatfreak realities of his new boss. This is somewhat of an effort for him, but without expecting him to change completely & instantly, I have let him know I've decided on a clean shop as the environment I want, & he has shown dramatic improvements in respecting that.
I asked him how he liked his job the other day after adding to this topic. I told him about this discussion & mentioned that was why I was asking. He's not a talker like me, but he's not afraid of telling me if something is bugging him... so no news is good news, but I was glad to have him confirm that when asked.
posted
I forgot to clarify my meaning on the quote you asked about...
after reading your comments:
quote:Originally posted by Chris Lovelady: the job market in my area is slim on experienced sign people. The ones that have been hired come to me with no experience in signs, and often cannot read a tape measure...this is what i have to work with. even with drug testing, I stuggle with alchol and drug abuse on the job or coming hung over. problems without safe driving records (can't put them in my company vehicle). wanting to bring there cell phone to work and talk allday to their buddies.
If I have to scale back the amount of work I take on, I would do that before I would take on help like you describe above. With a good interview process, possibly a performance evaluation & checking references.. I'd like to think I could spot the entirely unexperienced, or the inability to read a tape. The party animals & phone junkies may slip through the cracks... but in my opinion, you should never have to put up with any of this crap, however, if you now have 2 locations... I can see how scaling back your operation due to lack of qualified help is at a whole different level then mine is. For me, if I can't have quality people, I'll do it all myself until I can... which is what happened for 3 months this spring.
When I learned something that made my employee less valuable to me, I planned to fire him that instant, but let the day end without comment, slept on it, & let him go the next morning. That's as long as I would ever want to have the wrong person around.
quote:Doug wrote .. I'd like to think I could spot the entirely unexperienced, or the inability to read a tape.
this has been a basic skill requirement for employement for some time. if some one cannot tell me right away what half of 3/8" equals that is the first clue. but some one with no sign experience can be taught much of the procedures and operating the equitment(Plotters, printers) we use with in a short time..now software education is another issue. who here has started in a sign shop with no experience and was brought up and taught what we now know.
quote:Doug wrote I advertised in 2 newspapers & 2 on-line venues when my first successful employee was about 90 days away from his departure. I spent a fair bit of money on that, but didn't get any qualified candidates except 2 former business owners.
It seems that you have finally partially touch on the issue that has been part of the topic that i had originaly brought up. what is your definition of a sucessfull employee?
quote:Doug wrote the other one is in his 4th month with me, has received 2 raises & various bonus perks along the way. Both of them started out at $12.50/hour.
again a partial answer...but, what are your criteria for starting pay, criteria for raises? what do you to use measure when he gets a bonus. 4 months out of the gate and 2 raises, bonus, Perks ...impressive! good luck to you Doug.
I welcome any new thoughts or experiances on my questions from both points of view.
Tomorrow is a new day and I will continue to search for the answers I look for and those employees who will fit in my shop.
Lovelady
-------------------- "We have been making house calls since 1992"
Chris Lovelady Vital Signs
NOW WITH 2 LOCATIONS! Tallahassee, Florida Thomasville, Ga.
posted
it's nice to know my 4 or 5 feet of paragraphs on this thread are "finally partially" touching on what you want to talk about. Maybe my various criteria are best interpolated by the reader.
Around here $12.50 is not enough to rent a room and eat... so I expect to offer raises soon if someone is worth keeping around. "Successful" employees are the ones I still want, who still want to work here, and who are happy making what I am happy paying them.
posted
Chris, I don't feel this forum is the right place to discuss the pros and cons of my current employment situation. If you've got an email address I'll be happy to discuss some of my ideas, or you are welcome to call me at the number found here:
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
sure Russ, i have gotten several e-mail concerning this post already very positive! I would love to hear from you! i also invite anyone who feel that some figures may be sensitive to Drop me and e-mail...it is in the tool bar above this post.
also, I get news letter from a Professor of Business at Florida State University after i attended a workshop he held at our Chamber of Commerce, and this just so happens to be todays newsletter! It is surely worth the read!
quote:Revenue per Employee
If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable. -Seneca (Seneca the Elder)
One of the questions that entrepreneurs frequently ponder is whether the size of their labor force is proportionate with the amount of work that they have to do. Finding the right balance is critical. Clearly, every dollar that you save on labor costs goes right to the bottom line. However, a labor force that is too small affects customer service as well as the delivery of your firm’s products and services.
In my mind, one of the best ways to gauge the relative size and efficiency of your workforce is to look at revenue per employee (RPE). This method is not perfect, but it provides a good benchmark.
So many firms just assume that their existing labor cost is fixed, and that it cannot be changed. One entrepreneur that we were assisting was experiencing a decline in sales. In response, he reduced his labor cost by 20% through attrition and layoffs. When sales returned to the original level, he was surprised that his newly downsized labor force was more than capable of handling this sales level. Before the sales fell, his RPE had been $70,000. After the reduction in labor force, his RPE jumped to $120,000.
Another firm that we were assisting was having profitability problems. They had a $100,000 RPE, and their total cost per employee was $50,000 with salary and benefits. The firm’s cost of goods sold was 40%, and overhead averaged 20%. For every $100,000 of income, $50,000 was going to labor, $40,000 to cost of goods sold and $20,000 to overhead. While the firm was bringing in $100,000 in revenue, its costs were $110,000. This was not a pretty picture.
In order to correct this problem, the firm had two options: either reduce its labor costs or expand its sales without expanding labor. Both are do-able, but painful.
When used as a benchmark for comparison, RPE provides a very effective means of ascertaining the ideal size of your labor force. The average RPE for all firms is around $150,000, but RPE varies depending on the industry. For instance, a labor-intensive industry like farming is going to have a very low RPE, whereas technology firms should have a very high RPE. In light of this variance, statistics are available by industry to aid in comparison. Additionally, if you are changing processes or technology, you ought to see these changes in improved RPE numbers.
Now go out and monitor your RPE on a monthly and yearly basis. Compare it against some benchmark to ensure that your labor force is not too small or too large.
You can do this!
Jerry Osteryoung is the Jim Moran Professor of Entrepreneurship in the College of Business at Florida State University. He is also the Director of the Entrepreneurship Program at FSU and Executive Director of the Jim Moran Institute of Global Entrepreneurship. He can be reached by e-mail at jostery@comcast.net or by phone at 850-644-3372.
Lovelady
-------------------- "We have been making house calls since 1992"
Chris Lovelady Vital Signs
NOW WITH 2 LOCATIONS! Tallahassee, Florida Thomasville, Ga.
posted
Chris...I look at hiring, and all that, as a corporate way of saying things. This sign business we're in has never been a corporate thing.
Each individual within your shop, needs to be a creative person in their thinking. So you cannot send them around to do things, like they were robots.(OK...well sometimes)
In other words, each person should feel responsible as to the outcome of things.
In order to achieve that degree of "company man"-type loyalty, you must be able to prove that working for you will be best for them in the long run. as opposed to working for the gvmt or whomever might offer them more benefits.
Find the right person(s), then make them feel like partners in the biz. Do some profit-sharing. Set up a retirement plan...do everything to ensure they will be able to live well, when they are 65.
You want to be able to retire in a good way...so should they.
I'm sure you are very fair with who-all is working for you right now...
I'm just saying, that before you get so busy that hiring is a problem, go back and make sure that that's really what you want to do. Sometimes smaller is better.
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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How do you find the right person? were do you look besides an ad in the paper and weed through all the applicants.
we are far from corporate, but we do offer the retirement plan, insurance, but i think that until someone can show they will be with you longer than 1 year than that is kind of tuff...do you offer profit shareing to some one who has been with you only 4 months...still kind of tuff. this is more like a goal to set.
creativity and individuality is always nurtured here. i will alway look for new ways to do things, and look to employees for their input.
if you are going to grow your buiness beyond just one man shop then you have to have guide lines on tardiness, sick days, drug and alcohol abuse. set goals for advancement in pay. are they generating enough income, educating them to be more profitable costs. employee salery effects the overhead and thus the shop rate, then you have to ask does your shop rate acceed what the market will bare.
I have to say this, we can make the best made most creative product and if we don't have a handle on the business part of the company than there will be no need to hire people, you will be looking for a job. Any good company will want to better there employees life finacially, we do.
i think that in the end there are 3 things we can do with our buiness. Pay the bills and close it up, pass it on to our kids, or sell it. if you just have a customer list and some used equiptment it won't be worth much. if you can walk away from you business for 2 week vacation and come back and it is still there operating and making money, i think it is worth a whole lot more!
It is not like the old days for me when I threw My kit in the truck and took off. the over head was the brushes and paint and the truck payment, working out of your garage or on the kitchen table.
the answer i got on the RPE he did not know what the data on our industry. I am interested what sign of the signs of the times says....
Lovelady
-------------------- "We have been making house calls since 1992"
Chris Lovelady Vital Signs
NOW WITH 2 LOCATIONS! Tallahassee, Florida Thomasville, Ga.
If the whole world followed you, would you be pleased ~ Neale Donald Walsch
One of the most important things in running a great business, bar none, is insuring that you earn a sufficient level of profit for your business. Profit is good and lack of profit is bad. However, just because you have generated a profit, does not necessarily mean that you are earning enough. I have seen way too many businesses that just creep along without earning a reasonable level. I encourage most businesses to shoot for a net profit margin of 10%, knowing that, if they make anything above 7%, they are doing super.
While looking at profits in the aggregate is very important, sometimes there is just not enough detail in these pictures to help you make some hard decisions. I suggest that you look at the profitability you generate from at least your top 10 customers. I guarantee you will be surprised at the different levels of profits you are earning from different customers. Financial institutions do this type of analysis all the time to help them focus on the profitable areas in order to target and to deemphasize those areas of low or negative profitability.
The owners of one firm we assist did this type of analysis and they were very surprised at the result. Certain customers they thought they were making a lot of money on were the exact customers they were loosing money on. Just because you have a large amount of sales from a customer and you “think” that you are making money on them, does not guarantee actual levels of profit. There are so many ways for profit to vary from your projected levels due to additional labor or materials that you had not factored in to your price.
I urged the owners of one construction company to look at the profitability per customer. They were surprised to learn that the call back time they were putting in to keep the customer happy, was just wiping out any and all profits from their primary customer. In this case, they were able to negotiate a higher price (to account for the difficulty of dealing with this customer) without alienating the customer and thereby increasing profit.
A software company was also surprised to find out it was losing money on many accounts when it looked at the contract work it was providing the State. The company raised prices on the next set of bids to insure profitability from the lion’s share of its customers.
Looking at the profitability from individual customers will help you to weed out any unprofitable customers, allowing you to focus your efforts on those areas of maximum profits. Now go out and start looking at the profit you generate from individual customers!
You can do this!
Jerry Osteryoung is the Jim Moran Professor of Entrepreneurship in the College of Business at Florida State University. He is also the Director of the Entrepreneurship Program at FSU and Executive Director of the Jim Moran Institute of Global Entrepreneurship. He can be reached by e-mail at jostery@comcast.net or by phone at 850-644-3372.
-------------------- "We have been making house calls since 1992"
Chris Lovelady Vital Signs
NOW WITH 2 LOCATIONS! Tallahassee, Florida Thomasville, Ga.
posted
Chris i work in Orlando, FL and i started at $15 However i have 10 years in graphic design and 7 specifically in the Sign Industry. When i first started 7 years ago in california i was started at $10 and worked my way up to manager and $21 + Bonuses... But cost of living is much more expensive out there then florida (as you know!)
But if i was only a designer that would be the max i would expect. I can however install full vehicle wraps, Run any printer or cutter and also do inside sales with the best of them. So with that in mind i expect about 18 to 19 max after a year or so with a company.
posted
well in cali it was a sales goal. If we reached a certain monetary goal for a month we were given hourly raises for that month and that would be our bonus for the next paycheck. Here in florida i'm not sure if they do that here but i'll find out in time
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