posted
Haha, Glen, good one! I get smacked around regularly in here, but like I say, I can take it,... and I take it with a grain of salt.
Cam, I gave myself the nickname of "Catfish" after I was repeatedly called a "bottom feeder" by Joe Crumley. I've been insulted in here by you as well about a year ago, but you may recall that I refused to return the favor. I have what some folks in here seem to be lacking,...a sense of humor.
I want the records to show why Joe Crumley belittles me every chance he gets. I first bumped heads with Joe maybe 2 years ago on the ShopBot forum. We were discussing sign making and I made the remark; "It's easy!" I was referring to my years of work as a sign designer in the 70's and 80's where I toiled away on a drafting table all day and how computers have changed all of that and made things so much better, faster, and...easier! Joe mistook my comments as to suggest that "any idiot can design and make a sign." He took high offense to that and immediately became insulting. I tried to explain to Joe that he had simply misunderstood me, and even went so far as to send a detailed e-mail about what I was trying to say after he kept up his attacks in there and in here as well. Didn't seem to do any good, however. Oh well. My Mom told me when I was young, she said "Son, no matter what you do, what you say or how you act in this life, not everyone is going to like you!" Wiser words were never spoken, and we ALL know that to be true for each of us, no?
Funny, I see sign shops in my area going belly-up all the time. The local "SIGN-A-RAMA" bit the dust just last month, and I know of a few others that are either for sale or just barely hanging on. I just keep doing my thing, staying busy and socking money in the bank, loving my work with no real problems or worries as a one man operation. Life is good, work is fun, and I'm going to be around for a long, long time!
We are all grownups here, or should be...airing of personal dirty laundry shouldn't be a topic of discussion in here...no matter who the player/players...
If ones remarks are cutting or such, ignore them...to answer is to incite more...
Of course I'm an optimist, the world is overall good to me, even if it's lined w/instigators at every turn...if everyone would just take a chill pill and mellow out, life would be just awesome now wouldn't it? You're right, life would probably suck if ppl. treated each other nice all the time...
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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As I read through this thread it reminded me of why I like to do one off - custom work. Cam's post above sums up my thoughts.
quote: ... he has to find his own market level and the prices his market will bear... as long as he is doing the same work other people can do for less. The only way to get custom prices is to do custom work, the kind nobody else can or will do.
Amen Cam.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8788 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm jumping on the router bandwagon. I'm not going to lower my prices just because the router is working while I'm doing something else. I'll raise them, after all, precision work should command a higher price. It's work that can't economically be produced any other way.
We're designing signs and having to ditch certain elements we'd like to incorporate into the sign because it's just not economical to do the work by hand. Sure I could sub it out. I just subbed out some work to Ray Chapman's "pea shooter". But a 4x8 hdu sign will not be cheap to ship. Savings from no shipping costs will help make those router payments.
I was also looking into a printer. I decided to go with a router instead. Digital prints can be shipped easily and cheaply... no weight.
posted
Like I said before, I did not offer to meet the competition's price. Enough was enough, although if I had done so and got the work, I could have made $800.00 a day x 3 days = $2,400.00, net.
$800.00 a day, easy work. Think about that. $800.00 a day. Now evidently, according to some in here, that ain't ****. I keep forgetting that I'm in the company of millionaires in here, and some of you fine-haired people snub your noses at money like that. Incredible!
posted
Mark, you're missing the point. $800 a day is a lot of money IF you can do that amount of work every day and IF you have no overhead and IF your cnc was free and IF your cnc will never need repairing or replacing, etc. etc.
Most of us need to make more than $800 a day when we can, because there's going to be days when we make nada. Now that $800 day is only a $400 day. And when the word gets around about your discount, your $800 day may drop to a $600 day and the downward spiral will be tough to stop.
I think you are treating your signs too much like a commodity. Does an accomplished artist charge $120 dollars for a painting that only took him a couple hours? H*ll no. He gets what it's worth. We need to get what our signs are worth , not what sounds like a decent amount of money on the surface.
We are making a custom product, not cranking out a commodity. Your customers are going to make a h*ll of a lot more money from a well designed sign than you are from making it.
Hey, maybe we should, as an entire industry, give our signs to business' at no charge, plus 1% of their gross sales. It would eliminate low balling and we'd have to give them an effective sign to make good money. I think I'll start a new thread on that idea.
[ June 29, 2007, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: Dave Sherby ]
posted
Well let me take a poll, if I may. Alright, folks, who amongst you besides Dave would absolutely refuse to go to work for $800.00 a day net? Speak up.
[ June 29, 2007, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Mark Tucker ]
posted
Mark, the point everyone is trying to make is that your question about $800 a day is entirely arbitrary. Sure, $800 a day, free and clear, sounds great - but the reality of this business being what it is, you are NOT going to make that every day, and as your original post described, there will always be downward pressure on your pricing by other people who believe they can do the same work for less. Then take into account that there IS overhead, that your equipment WILL require maintenance and/or replacement, and you could easily find yourself not doing nearly as well as you think.
As for the insults, here's where I stand... Yeah, I've made some less than flattering comments here. If you think you get called names, you should try, as I have, to encourage people to charge MORE and give examples of what's possible. I've been called everything from a A (***hole) to L (liar), and it's one of several reasons why I don't spend nearly as much time here as I used to. Frankly, I find this forum does as much to damage personal relationships between letterheads as it does to encourage them, but that's just IMHO.
But you know what else is insulting? When people with a lot of experience offer advice and discussion, on an open forum where advice is encouraged and appropriate, and that advice is disparaged, mocked, and condescended to by someone like yourself who goes to great lengths to tell us that you have it all figured out and don't need anyone to tell YOU how to do anything. That's insulting as well, whether you want to admit it or not. Fact is, you like pushing peoples buttons in this forum, and you love the attention it gets you. For myself, I'm genuinely glad you are happy with your situation and making decent coin - but when advice and discussion are offered here, you could learn to be just a bit more respectful of it, and of the people who offer it. As for whatever personal issues you have with individuals here, that's not my concern - I've never met or communicated with you other than on these pages, so whatever we say to each other is based ENTIRELY on what's written here - there's no "back story" between you and I. So if you wonder why I might sometimes think you are something of a smartass, well, the only way for me to get that idea is from what you write here; by the same token, if I come across as a pompous know-it-all, that's as much my fault as anything.
And this subject has already taken up way too much space in my head....
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
For the life of me, I can't figure out why this dead horse won't move.
But I'll try one more shot. Mark, are you telling us that you would show a $800 PROFIT each day for three days on this job? Or $800 net? There's a big difference. And what about the days spent in designing and running to Lowe's that you were paid $500? You didn't have a $800 a day profit for that time.
Sure, I would work under that scenerio if I could CLEAR $800 a day, EVERYDAY. That would be a PROFIT of over $200,000 a year. But I don't think you are doing that (or me) nor do I think that you can do that under your set up. There are some days that I might put that much in my pocket, but not many because there are days that I spend designing or a thousand other details that must be addressed. Then there are the Murphy Law days.
While your overhead is very small, as you have said, there are still expenses, and there will be days when everything goes wrong and you actually lose more than you make. That puts a rather large hole in the good times.
It's obvious that your business plan is something to which you have given considerable thought and are convinced that it is right. More power to you. You and I think differently. As long as you are happy with your set up and I'm happy with mine then the world seems to be peachy-keen.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
When I owned my own business, it cost me $2,500.00 a week just to keep the lights on. After material and overhead, I found out that if I couldn't pocket $150.00 a day, I was screwed. Well, the economy dived in Michigan, and I was screwed.
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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Cam, you got me all wrong, buddy. I'm not out to push anyone's buttons and I'm certainly no attention whore. I have a different philosophy about things and I state them, that's all. I have never intentionally insulted anyone in here nor will I. I'm sure if you and I met in the real world, we would get along just fine. Like Gramps says, the internet can be a poor place to communicate.
Raymond, the job I turned down would have netted me $2400.00 PURE PROFIT and I could have completed it in 3 days. That's $800.00 a day.
posted
"At the last minute, he found a friend of a friend of a friend that has a sign company that will do it all for $2,400.00"
Now, I'm getting more and more confused.
You were thinking of matching the other guy's price of $2,400 and it would take you three days and you would make a profit of $800 a day - clear. Three times 800 is 2,400 which is the selling price. What about materials and overhead?
Must be the New Math.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Raymond, he's figuring the $500 he's already been paid would cover the cost of the materials and design time... so that'd actually be $2900 he got paid for the entire sign.
Mark, one day you're gonna learn.... it doesn't work to argue real world logic with principles here in Letterville. You will never get a go-ahead from the old-timers to bump your price a little bit to get a job. That would be admitting that you are on the level of the competition around you, and that will never work.
On the other hand, I promise you that anyone here that is still in business, has adjusted their prices a few times to get an easy-money job they wanted. It may have been BEFORE they gave the price to the customer: they bid it just a little lower than they normally would have, because they knew the other shops who were going to bid on it... or it may have been afterwards, cleverly disguised as 'well, we can leave off this flourish and it'll save you $500..'
Now that goes for companies who are NORMAL sign shops, not ones that only specialize in something like hand-carved gilded signs that only THEY can do...
Don't get me wrong, I respect the pros here and have learned a TON... but I do think that if you spent a week in some shops, you'd find them to be a little more normal than what the owners like to portray here....
/putting flame-retardant suit back on.. //phew this thing is hot in the summertime...
-------------------- Jon Jantz SnappySign Walnut Hill, FL Posts: 3396 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I'm with Jon here...I think people are ganging up on Mark a bit....
and I don't think I would believe that none of the "old timers" have ever compromised their Esti-Mate prices to get a job that while lower than what they might hope to get, would still net them a significant profit.
quote: Mark, you're missing the point. $800 a day is a lot of money IF you can do that amount of work every day and IF you have no overhead and IF your cnc was free and IF your cnc will never need repairing or replacing, etc. etc.
Most of us need to make more than $800 a day when we can, because there's going to be days when we make nada. Now that $800 day is only a $400 day. And when the word gets around about your discount, your $800 day may drop to a $600 day and the downward spiral will be tough to stop.
One thing I'd like to have explained. I'm not being a smart-a$$, defending Mark's position, or trying to start trouble. I totally understand from a matter of principle where Dave, Ray and Cam are coming from.....
However, all three of you have said.. "yeah, it'd be great if we could make $800 profit every day, but you have all this other stuff that makes this not possible..." What in the world does that have to do with the fact that he DID have a job that would make $800 a day in front of him... and how does turning down that job for less profitable jobs HELP his bottom line?
Other than the part where you think the whole world is going to find out and come beating down his door for lower prices... (which I find to be a little dramatic, you could offer FREE signs and the advertising wouldn't get around THAT good) what would be the harm in taking this job? Turning down an easy $800 a day, seems like a SURE way of getting to the place of making 'NADA' as Dave said....
"The big picture, the big picture..." you say. Well, in the big picture, if he insists that his signs are worth way more money than the customer and/or competition thinks they are, he'll not get ANY work.
Again, I understand the principle of pricing by the signs value, rather than by the actual materials.. but as all of you have said, the type of work Mark specializes in and also the area that he's in, he will not be able to command a super-high price for his work just because he and God knows it's overall advertising worth over the next 10 years. If he continually turns down good-profit jobs because a bunch of folks that are in a totally different market and niche tell him to, he'll be out of business in no time...
It's easy to say, start offering a totally different type of product and you can command the prices you want. That's easier said than done, and not even possible in some areas... for example Cam Bortz is (apparently) very successful in his area in Connecticut, and is probably known far and wide for his high-end work. But I promise you, if he moved down here, he would never sell a sign in Atmore, AL, and would even have difficulties making it in Pensacola... the demand for his type of work is just not that great here.
It's comparing peaches and grapes, folks...
-------------------- Jon Jantz SnappySign Walnut Hill, FL Posts: 3396 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
If I'm not mistaken Mark began this thread complaining about the low ball price of his competitor and is now defending that same price as something he can get rich doing. Why did we change horses in the middle of the stream?
Certainly, $800 a day is nothing to sneeze at, but I can't see how he's going to do it. The first $500 was for 11 designs, template and a quick trip to Lowe's along with the time spent with the customer. There's no way possible for that to come up to our $800 a day standard, so we are already borrowing money from the three day production schedule. And there is still HDU to buy, paint for the finishing and some type of installation (which probably is figured in the three days allotement). No one works without any overhead, so we are slowly diminishing our $800 a day ideal.
Even with subtracting the cost of materials, overhead, insurance, equipment payments, and depreciation, there could still be a sizeable profit at the end...but then we have to do the same thing the next three days....and the next and the three days after that, without loosing any more time doing 11 designs and running to Lowe's.
Sorry Jon, that sounds more like real world logic to me.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I believe the real issue here is downscaling the price just because. What possible reason do you have for that customer if you do that? Stick with what you originally quoted, or if you move the price down, ensure you remove something from the project as well. If you want a lesser model of something elsewhere, naturally you pay less.
Or is this a post on how we can lower our prices to get the job after all? If that's the case, then we can analyze that aspect. The only way around that one I can think of is, offer to sponsor part of the cost for your name or plaque somewhere for advertising. Or swing in another benefit of some type.
Just don't move it lower just because it's what THEY want. We run our businesses, no one else does.
posted
Mark I've changed my mind. I definitely think you better call that guy back and go for the job. Right now. Call him. You better do it for less than the $2400 though. Because you've already got $500 out of him.
Why did you start this thread again?
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Let's remember this the next time we go car shopping.....please pay sticker and never negotiate the price. The salesman has to eat, remember....and to dicker him down is to diminish the value of the car and his ability to operate.
Don't use coupons at the grocery store, nor ever take advantage of "Sales" listed in the paper. Demand to pay full price.
Sometimes taking a little less than you normally would is acceptable - at least I think....I'd weigh the job, it's repercussions and make the decision.
I think it's ridiculous to think that just because you cave a little on price with a particular tempting high-dollar job - that all of a sudden the entire town will know about it and will demand concessions on every future job.
Donna makes a good point though on perhaps simplifying elements that might have otherwise been time consuming....worth considering.
Edit: Dan does make a good point in that if you have a niche market as he does - you can more easily command a particular price. Where else are people going to get what he has to offer??
This is definitely not apples to apples in comparison to what Mark does though.
posted
Do you have sales Todd? Last week Mark was asking X number of dollars but this week he is considering having a sale? Is that what you mean?
And just for the record, if I give a price to a customer around here, yes-everybody expects the same price. Why? Because its a small town. And yes everybody does know what I charged Jo Blow at the gas station. And Jim Blow expects to get that price because he is Joe Blows cousin.
Maybe Mark lives in a very large community that nobody talks. If he does he's got no problem then.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
The lower price is a 36% discount. That's not just knocking a little off for one of the good old boys.
Sure I use coupons because the seller offers them and I get a used car for a little less than the sticker price because the salesman will come down. In both cases I know that the orginal price was not "really" the price. Have you ever seen a time when mattresses where not on sale?
I'm in the business of selling images. I don't offer coupons or have sales. Yes, sometimes I will give someone a break just because I like them (or even do it for free), but it is my decision, not something that I am forced into in order to get the job.
I'm just stubborn enough to not play the game of working one side against the other.
At one of the seminars I attended in Charlotte, the speaker said that when you present a price you say, "The price is..." - not, "the usual price" or "our regular price" ...just THE price is.
I'm tired...must be time for a nap.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Mark Tucker: Anyone than can advise me as to where I went wrong with this "non-job" is welcome to.
You didn't go wrong Mark. You are not going to get every job that comes along. Nobody does. You were going to lose this one to the low baller, and yes it sucks, but like someone posted earlier, there's always someone who will do it cheaper.
quote:Originally posted by Mark Tucker: At the last minute, he found a friend of a friend of a friend that has a sign company that will do it all for $2,400.00, or $37.50 per sq. ft! I was floored! I'll work that price when I'm doing sub work for other sign companies, but that's when they supply all materials and the design! This was not the case!
I see your problem. It's your math. 3 days work divided into $2400 is indeed $800 a day. But you just stated that you had to pay for materials, (2 sheets of hdu) and the mounting template, and the price included installation, (was this magnetic HDU or am I to assume that there is more hardware to buy, fabricate, attach, etc.)
Plus it sounds like you already practically gave away your design time because you're only getting $500 for 11 designs plus fabricating 2 mounting templates and their costs.
You did the right thing by not dropping your price. Others have said it, you'd telling him you were going to gouge him with the original price (even though you weren't really)if you would have met the low baller. Years ago I took a very high powered sales training seminar. They taught me this on the subject of cutting price: When you cut price for any reason (other than cutting back on features) you will never have a satisfied customer. They are always going to wonder if they held out a little longer that the price might be even lower.
And again, you're complaining about him, and now you're ready to match him. That's the attitude that is causing this reduction in prices. It happened with vinyl, it happened with digital prints, now it's starting to happen with routers.
quote:Originally posted by Mark Tucker: I call it "CNC Proliferation"
And by meeting this guys low balling price, you're helping to perpetuate the problem.
You made the decision, correct? Rehashing the "800/day" aspect past that decision makes me think that you're now looking for someone to come here and justify changing your mind again.
I said it on the phone, and now I'll say it on this forum...
When you post something seeking advice, you will get some good, and occasionally, bad advice, but that's all it is. At the end of the day, the decision is still your's and your's alone to make in regards to what you will do.
One point I think needs to made... Whether or not your router is running is a moot point. My airbrush equipment doesn't get used every day, nor do my brushes. But that doesn't mean when they are being used that I'm 'LOSING MONEY" but not having my cutter whizzing away.
What do consider "billable hours"? I may be out here the shop up to 60 hours during the course of the week, but it's not all billable. Bookkeeping, returning phone calls, maintaining equipment, ordering supplies, sweeping up the floor, shooting out to the hardware store for some foam brushes because I ran out...I probably spend at least 10 hours a week doing things of that nature. Take that into consideration when you figure that $800 amount. You may be surprised at what that comes down to...and how quickly.
And now for the part you know better than to have posted... "I keep forgetting that I'm in the company of millionaires in here, and some of you fine-haired people snub your noses at money like that."
That's not only untrue, but uncalled for. It's only purpose for even being said was to be combative. I thought you were better than that. Rapid
[ June 29, 2007, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Ray Rheaume ]
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Welllllllllllllllllllll...I don't know about millionares in Georgia....but....here in So. California, this is the typical storage area of an average sign shop!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Well hold everything, everybody! Get a load of this: The customer called me back today and wanted to come by and give me my check for $500.00. I says; "Why don't you just mail it?" He says; "I need to show you something because I have a question for you." He gets here this afternoon with the check and a color picture/print of a flower, very detailed, and ask me; "Mark, this is what we've decided on for our logo for the signs. It obviously needs to be hand-painted. Can you do it? Because your competition can't." I says; "Sure, I can hand paint that, but I'd have to have more money,... above my original quote of $3,750.00." "How much more?" "$850.00" "Can you still have the signs installed by July 14th?" "Yep". "So, $4,600.00 total?" "Yep." "Can I write you a check for half of that now?" "Yep." He did so, we shook hands, and he left. All's well that ends well, folks! $72.00 a sq. ft.,...very decent for these parts! And painting the flowers? No big deal. Easy money! It'll be fun to whip out my brushes. Haven't seen them fer a while!
Now, to try and clear a few things up: I don't see where I was being combative, Rapid, and I'm sorry you took it that way. $800.00 a day is still damn good money in my book. My philosophy is that if I can't make a dollar, I'll go make 50 cents. I installed 14 double post signs in the ground at a church yesterday for a local sticky shop. I worked my ASS off in the hot sweltering sun for 6 hours to git 'er done, but I made $700.00. All things considered, I'd rather make $800.00 a day letting my ShopBot do most of the HARD work, but I'm glad I didn't lower my price! Look what happened!
A lot of folks in here criticize me for how I work and do business. Let me just say this: Other than my mortgage, I am debt-free. Everything I own, including my shop, my ShopBot, my truck, all of my equipment, everything, is bought and paid for. I have no credit debt and I have plenty of money in the bank. I got where I am by making signs the way I do and doing business how I do it. What's wrong with that?
One more thing: About the design time I had in with this customer,...yes, I did 11 different designs, but they were all variations of the same oval theme, mostly just different letter styles. I have a computer. I have SignLab. A few clicks of the mouse and "boom", there's another variation. I had maybe 2 hours in the whole thing. No big deal. It was easy!
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote: Everything I own, including my shop, my ShopBot, my truck, all of my equipment, everything, is bought and paid for. I have no
All the more reason to charge more,, you have no excuses to discount anything any more. You have no price fear.. Gouge em until you smirk..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5278 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
The old guys are pretty damn good, Jon. That's one reason I'm active in here. Thanks for taking my back, friend. I owe you one! (Come to think of it, I owe you two or three.)
[ June 30, 2007, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: Mark Tucker ]
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