I am refering to the Polycarbinate face that has the copy on it. It slides into the cabinet by way of a track and then secured into place.
I just recieved a supoena to be a witness in a court case involving a taking of a sign without establishing the actual ownership of said sign. As I understand the law, it states that the sign belongs to the property onto which it was installed unless other arragements were made, such as legally selling or giving away said sign.
A sign company here removed a freestanding pole sign and cabinet from the premises of the property that was bieng leased by his customer. The company of the second part claims that he purchased the sign from the local Pepsi distributor. However, the sign did not belong to Pepsi, but the sign face was bought and paid for by Pepsi. They often do this for customers that have thier products for sale on the premises...with the customer getting a third of the space and Pepsi getting two thirds for their logo. (By the way, you qualify for this perk with just a Pepsi machine.) The original owner of the sign in question is my customer...so naturally I have been drug into this conflict as an "expert witness"...what ever the hell that means. The judge wants to hear from my lips the official defination of Sign Face vs Sign.
I checked our local codes....nothing. I next asked L&I for thier definition. The comment from them was...?? we don't know. Wait...it say's in the official Labor & Industries handbook that certain codes refer to sign faces....but you don't know the definition? Methinks that they didn't look too hard. No help there.
Maybe I am asking the wrong question?
So now I am sceduled to give my expert testimony before the judge on June 11th.........I don't have a definition....sorry your honor. (gulp)
Any ideas of where to look next?
I am rather nervous about this anyway, because it involves another sign company here that I am friends with. Besides I haven't been on this side of the judge before...mine was when I was a lot younger and I had to stand in front of the judge and be yelled at. Yikes!
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Also, any "Sign Shop Lawyers" care to add to the discussion of legality, please feel free.
Thanks.........Jackson (the not-so expert, expert witness)
-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun" Posts: 1000 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
The "Sign Face" is the description of a component of the total "Sign".
The "Sign" belongs to the property on which it is standing unless sold etc. as you say.
The "Sign Face", although a component of the sign is not an integural part of the total sign structure and as such can be removed or replaced at any time. Hence it remains the property of the person who made it, paid for or disposed of it in a legal manner. If Pepsi sold or gave the finished face to the owner of the sign then it is his. If not Pepsi owns it, or whoever Pepsi had it made for and gave to.
The main fact is: The "Sign Face" is the description of a seperate COMPONENT of the total "Sign" structure.
How's that for a "Bush(ie^) Lawyer" ?
Seriously, I had a similar problem when I built and installed illuminated sign cabinets on a building for a customer.
When he moved a few years later we took the "Sign Faces" out of the cabinets and put them in new ones on his new premises. The original cabinets were deemed fixed and wired into the building as improvements and remained the property of the owner of the building. The "faces" were not because they were removable. Therefore not a "Fixture"
Quote that to the Judge!
[ May 10, 2007, 02:58 AM: Message edited by: Jon Butterworth ]
posted
Hiya Jackson, If your local sign ordinance is any good, it should contain a chapter of definitions which should define what a sign face is. Here's what google turne up for me... Sign, Face - The part of the sign that is or can be used to identify, advertise, communicate information or for visual representation which attracts the attention of the public for any purpose. Sign face includes any background material, panel, trim, color and direct or self-illumination used that differentiates the sign from the building, structure, backdrop surface or object upon which or against which it is placed. The sign structure shall not be included as a portion of the sign face provided that no message, symbol, or any of the aforementioned sign face criteria are displayed on or designed as part of the sign structure. It was taken from this sign ordinance, which I though was fairly well written... http://www.townofsmyrna.org/planning/pdffiles/98SIGNOR.pdf
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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That is exactly what I needed,Checkers.I have a call into the ISSA. I would imagine they would also have a clear defination of a sign face. I can't even imagine why our sign code and L&I code would not be able to define this. Oh-well.
Bushie^....by checking a little further, I find that the original sign face didn't belong to Pepsi either. It was the original face installed with the sign 22 years ago. Pepsi just paid to have it re-signed for the new customer. The sign company assumed that Pepsi had the right to sell the whole sign. They cut it off at the ground and re-installed it at the new business without checking as to ownership of said sign. Now the original owner is taking them both to court to get her sign back.
What a mess. I would assume the sign shop would at least check into this a little more before committing this heinous crime.
hahaha get the rope boys!
Thanks again guys..
Jackson
-------------------- Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun" Posts: 1000 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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