quote:Originally posted by Mark Tucker: I "perceive" the 2' x 4' 2.5D sign that's being cut in the shop as I type this to be worth $7,000.00, but my customer don't "perceive" it that way!
Aspire to work with, and only accept, those clients and commissions that do; work less, make more.
I would much rather work on one $100.00 dollar job (what I read Dan as saying much of the time) then one hundred $1.00 dollar jobs (what I read your approach to be).
It’s all in the ride. Some like Chevettes, some like Corvette’s, and some prefer to use Gulfstream G5. Everybody may eventually arrive at the same point, but the energy and resources expounded to get there varies greatly. The G5 will get you there quick but at what expense? The Chevette will get there as well, but at what expense? In my opinion there is no free lunch in this world; either pay now or pay later but we will pay one way or another at some point (being it money, time, etc.).
-------------------- Bob Gilliland InKnowVative Communications Harrisburg PA, USA
"The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." Benjamin Franklin Posts: 642 | From: Harrisburg, PA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dan, As usual, thank you for another of your inspiring posts. Please keep them coming because I very much enjoy reading them.
To Mike, Mark and the others who don't get it, did you find the arrow yet?
Seriously though, Dan is a big boy and he can defend himself. If you choose not to agree with his comments, that’s fine too. However, if you don’t have anything positive or constructive to contribute, please do the right thing and keep your comments to yourself.
From what I read, Dan is offering words of wisdom that comes from many years of experience. You may think he's patting himself on the back, but, to us that "get it", he's offering sound business advice. And, believe it or not, he is in a competitive environment, just like the rest of us. If you don't believe me, just google "Themed Environments" to see what he's up against.
From what's he's been saying in all his posts, he has chosen to grow and market his business using a different path or approach, one that is not based on traditional methods, “itemized pricing” or “time or materials”. His business offers turn-key advertising and promotional solutions, solutions that will practically guarantee an increase in revenue for his clients.
If you take Dan’s approach to marketing and apply it to your business, I think you’ll notice some changes. If you told your client that you can provide a 15% - 25% increase in sales, do you think they would listen? I know I would, and it doesn’t matter what you’re selling.
Naturally, the next question would be what would you willing to pay for these services? Even a small business, only earning $100,000 a year, can see a $25,000 increase in revenue in one year. So, would it be safe to assume that this client would be willing to spend $10,000 to get $25,000? A business person that “gets it” wouldn’t hesitate if they were properly presented with such an opportunity.
So, what do you do next? Well, that’s up to you. You can continue running your business the way you always have. But, be prepared to get the same results you always have. Or, you can start to think outside the box and start providing unique advertising and promotional solutions to your clients.
Before you say “we can’t do that here” or “we can’t get those prices here”, just take a look around you and look at all the money being spend on "advertising". The money is out there; you just have to figure out the solution to pick it up
Havin’ fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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The sad fact is that in the design business it's practically gotten to the point where most people are doing design "by the pound".
I personally find Dan's posts to be very inspiring and get a lot out of them. Rather than being resentful for the success he's acheived, I'd rather be honest with myself and examine where my thinking and expectations have limited my success.
-------------------- Paul Bierce - Designer pabierce@hotmail.com www.paulbierce.com Posts: 330 | From: Dix Hills, NY | Registered: Jan 2005
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Where did I say I was resentful and where did I say I wasn't honest with myself?
Man, grampa dan, you wouldn't BELIEVE a couple of the sick hate e-mails I've received from my comments in this thread! Truly sick! All from Canada, BTW! Threatening, ugly, vicious, all of that stuff from the usual "Internet Tough Guys". Sad! Truly sad! Of course, they wouldn't say who they were. Typical cowards.
What should the records show, Dan? That you should never be second guessed, questioned or challenged? That there should never be another opinion, thought or "way of looking at things" after yours? That your word is golden and never to be looked upon as anything other than the Holy truth?
You know I don't feel or think that way, and I know you don't either. Please calm your Canadian neighbors down before they come down here and kill me!
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I see where Dan is coming form and I always enjoy hearing… err reading what he has to say. Out of the goodness of his heart and on his free time he comes on here and shares his stories and experiences with us. From reading what Dan has to say I only think he is trying to help inspire those of us on here that complain about how we aren’t getting the dollar we deserve, not to brag about his success. When I read something like this it gets the gears in my head turning. I believe that is what he is trying to do. He is successful and is getting paid well to do what he loves. I don’t know about you, but that is where I want to be.
I also hear what Mark is saying I think in some areas of the country this especially holds true. Customers like to see how their money is being used. I don’t think a lot people understand the value of their own business image. And it’s our job to do that. I think a lot of our competition out there fails to educate the general public how valuable what we do truly is, therefore we find ourselves in a pricing war with the guy down the street. I think that is where Dan’s point comes in.
>> Rather than trying to compete with other sign shops on price, compete with them on value. << This is the approach our shop is trying to take.
I believe this all partially related to the type of sign as well. On smaller jobs I don’t think it’s worth it for our business to try to educate a customer how valuable signs and designs should be. We would be wasting too much time for a job that we might not get. We simply pull open our Estimate software, type in the figures and out comes the price. I also believe that some customers like to see this type of system in place. They don’t want to see us pull a figure out of our heads, whether the figure is fair or correct. And even though we think, eat and drink signs, to the average customer a sign is no different then any other product they can pick up at a retail store. I wish it weren’t that way but I believe that we as the sign industry have let it get to that point.
But this is completely different for the larger product that our business produces. We take our time and all of us, designers, workers and owners get together and come up with a quote for that project. This approach probably won’t work for most of you. But for us it works great, Ben and myself are learning how to better price a project and we are all giving our input on how much money and time we are going to spend to finish the job. It won’t always be like this but it does help us become more involved in the whole process and in return we can charge what we believe we are worth. The customer isn’t just paying for our time and material and overhead they are paying for our knowledge and experience. I think that is what Dan was trying to say.
That being said, I don’t think Dan is going to convince Mark how to run his business any more than Mark can convince Dan. They both seem to be perfectly happy doing things the way that they are and that’s the important part.
[ May 07, 2007, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Joseph Diaz ]
-------------------- Joe Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, IL 61764 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 538 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mark honey, perhaps you didn't stop long enough to hear what Bushie was trying to tell you. Endearments to people you don't even know ranks right up there with calling names. Particularly if they are followed by a condescending paragraph with a drawn "picture". So I too am pointing out to you that Donna deserves far more respect than you gave her. In smaller words. Do you understand sweetie pie? When you are on here you are not in Georgia where you profess the women accept that a man is just talking Southern talk.
Now as far as
quote:What you're missing, Jon, is that Dan enjoys a good debate and I'm trying to give him one and not be a "nod head".
What makes you think that Dan is on this board to try and debate anything? Dan has been on this board since I came on and well before and is one of the fine people who has helped me get out of the non-profit business that I had been running and on my way to retirement, with money. Which brings me to another point.
quote:I'll be 55 in a few weeks and I'm nowhere NEAR accomplishing what Bill did and the way he did it, and I honestly can't say that I wouldn't like to.
Being the self professed bottom feeder that you say you are you WILL be working and fishing for a long time to come, instead of retiring. And when someone comes on the board with great advice as to how to get out of that rut of working by making good money, why do you consistantly argue that he shouldn't? Because although YOU don't seem to be getting the larger picture, that Russ, Dusty, Ray, Bob and Checkers have all pointed out the larger picture still remains. PERCEIVED VALUE. (Perceived means what everyone thinks its worth, ok honey?) And our work has more value because the plumbers, painters and brick layers can't do it. They don't have the imagination. But if you want to provide them with your services for $1 a square foot you run with that. And then go fishing. Because you're going to need that for supper.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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After I posted I noticed Marks post before mine, Mark, I can’t say I feel sorry for you. Dan seems like such a nice guy and from what my parents have said after they met him he truly is, AND… when you start to notice all these people get on this post to defend Dan whether they think he’s wrong or right… ANNNND that fact that Dan never loses his cool and always stays positive; there is no wonder why you might be getting flamed. I’m not totally convinced you aren’t enjoying it. People do love drama… am I right? That being said I totally see where you are coming from I just think it’s your tone. It’s hard to portray emotion on a forum such as this.
-------------------- Joe Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, IL 61764 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 538 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mark Tucker: Where did I say I was resentful and where did I say I wasn't honest with myself?
Sorry for any misunderstanding. I was actually refering to MY OWN impulse to become resentful and be dishonest with myself when it comes to other people's success.
-------------------- Paul Bierce - Designer pabierce@hotmail.com www.paulbierce.com Posts: 330 | From: Dix Hills, NY | Registered: Jan 2005
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Deri, honey, calm down. Donna has my complete respect, as do you! But when I'm in here, I am who I am, and that's all I can be. I don't knock anyone else for who they are, but I do reserve the right to disagree, question, and forward my own opinion, wrong or not. No?
Plumbers, painters and brick layers can't make a good sign, but can you plumb a house, paint it, or lay its' foundation first? Can you build the kitchen cabinets? Can you perform open heart surgery, operate an M-1 A-1 Abrams tank, design a 70 story office building, or coordinate a meeting of thousands of people from around the world in a convention hall? It's all work and it all takes skill. That's my only point with that. What we do as sign makers and sign writers is important indeed, but no more so than what everyone else does to make the world go 'round. No?
posted
And I totally agree with Deri! NOTHING gets my dander up faster than having some guy I barely know call me "sweetie, honey or baby"!! I don't care if it IS the way that Southerners talk or what excuse you have....MOST women don't like it. PERIOD! It's degrading and I will usually take offense...and if you're a customer, you're in for a price increase!!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Jane Diaz: And I totally agree with Deri! NOTHING gets my dander up faster than having some guy I barely know call me "sweetie, honey or baby"!! I don't care if it IS the way that Southerners talk or what excuse you have....MOST women don't like it. PERIOD! It's degrading and I will usually take offense...and if you're a customer, you're in for a price increase!!
It's no "excuse", Jane. It's just the way it is 'round here! Sorry!
Women in my neighborhood expect it and get right upset if they don't hear it. It don't mean nothin' but I can tell I'll NEVER convince you of that!
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Mark, my widdle Lamby chops doodle noodle, I'm not getting back down to the name calling anymore.
I suppose the brick layers, plumbers and painters in your area all charge less because you just can't get a good buck for quality work there, no? Or is that just the sign business that doesn't get a good buck for quality work in your area?
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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I do love a good debate, but when comments turn personal the points we are trying to make quickly get forgotten.
I suspect Mark knows he can pull my chain in a hurry. Arguing for the sake of arguing isn't really a debate and that is what seems to be happening here a little I suspect.
We use a lot of non-traditional methods in my business - both in fabrication and in the way I charge things out. Its worked well for us and we've enjoyed a good deal of success. I've chosen to share some of that here along with stories of the happenings in my life. Its long been my hope that through my ramblings some folks might be inspired to try some of what has worked for me. The other stuff, well I hope it makes a few folks smile... perhaps even chuckle from time to time.
I understand my seemingly always positive outlook riles a few folks. I also understand my ways and methods of doing business don't make sense to some folks or simply won't work for other people. That's OK for its MY WAY and everyone needs to march to the drum of their own choosing.
Marching to my drum (with Phoebe banging) in Yarrow...
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8739 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Deri, sugar doodle, who said that we don't all get good money down here? Did I say that? Where? I charge a low rate compared to some, but I have high volume. It's all CNC work and nothing else, and the way I have it set up, it's easy enough. It's all good. Dan may sell one job a month for whatever amount, and I may sell 10 to make the same money. But believe me, it's the same amount of work.
Brick layers, painters, carpenters and plumbers all make good money down here, unless maybe if they're illegal immigrants. Y'all got any of them in Canada?
quote:Originally posted by Dan Sawatzky: I do love a good debate, but when comments turn personal the points we are trying to make quickly get forgotten.
I suspect Mark knows he can pull my chain in a hurry. Arguing for the sake of arguing isn't really a debate and that is what seems to be happening here a little I suspect. -grampa dan
Show me where I've ever gotten "personal" with you, Dan. I never have. "Personal" to me means insultive, demeaning and ugly, and while some of the women folk in here may claim that I've done that with them, I never meant to. My Moma would slap me, cyber space or not.
quote: It's no "excuse", Jane. It's just the way it is 'round here! Sorry!
Women in my neighborhood expect it and get right upset if they don't hear it. It don't mean nothin' but I can tell I'll NEVER convince you of that!
This was the daily meditation I received today, shortly after reading your post....thought it was relevant... "May 7, 2007 Feeling Our Words Words Have Weight Words carry energy and this gives language its power and its potential to heal or hurt. Most of us can remember a time that someone sent a word our way, and it stuck with us. It may have been the first time we received a truly accurate compliment, or the time a friend or sibling called us a name, but either way it stuck. This experience reminds us that what we say has weight and power and that being conscious means being aware of how we use words.
The more conscious we become, the more we deepen our relationship to the words we use so that we speak from a place of actually feeling what we are saying. We begin to recognize that words are not abstract, disconnected entities used only to convey meaning; they are powerful transmitters of feeling. For the next few days, you might want to practice noticing how the words you say and hear affect your body and your emotional state. Notice how the different communication styles of the people in your life make you feel. Also, watch closely to see how your own words come out and what affect they have on the people around you.
You may notice that when we speak quickly, without thinking, or rush to get our ideas across, our words don't carry the same power as when we speak slowly and confidently, allowing those receiving our words time and space to take them in. When we carefully listen to others before we speak, our words have more integrity, and when we take time to center ourselves before speaking, we truly begin to harness the power of speech. Then our words can be intelligent messengers of healing and light, transmitting deep and positive feelings to those who receive them."
[ May 07, 2007, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Jane Diaz ]
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Mark, I would seriously consider knocking that off. I'm all for trying to stay positive and seeing your point of view as a relevant one, but I don’t see your point of view when it comes to degrading other people including my Mother, whether you are joking or not and especially after she asked you not to. Please stop and let’s stick to the main subject
-------------------- Joe Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, IL 61764 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 538 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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Well, since this has turned into a free-for-all.... hehe..
Mark, you have to remember that some folks here live above the Mason-Dixon line and have their cords wound a LOT tighter than us southern folk... I made a couple stops in town this morning and was called sweetie, darlin' and honey by women I've never even seen before, and didn't even think about it more than a few seconds. So ladies, down here, I get called those terms a lot more than I actually use them for women...
In other parts of the world, those are fighting words apparently. I myself will be more careful as well.
Edited to add: This isn't to say I agree with you on your debate with Dan though... I understand what Dan is saying. My grandfather has done woodworking for many years and gets several thousand dollars for a dining room table. I could build one too, using the same materials and amount of time... and get about $800-900 for it if figured by TIME/MATERIALS method..
But when he has a real demand for his quality of workmanship, and people know he'll deliver a more-than-satisfactory product, they line up for his work... he has turned away LOTS of people asking for them. Now why in the WORLD would it make sense for him to even consider his materials and time, and try to price off that?? Like Dan, he knows exactly what those factors are, but they have absolutely nothing to do with his price. It's not even 'PERCEIVED value'... it is the 'TRUE value' way of pricing.
((I apologize if the word 'ladies' is inappropriate in some part of the world))
[ May 07, 2007, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Jon Jantz ]
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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Joseph, chill out dude! I'm not out to degrade or demean anyone! I like to think that I have no enemies in this world, but me thinks I may be making some rather quickly in here without intending to!
I hear ya, Jon. I never thought about that, it never entered my mind, I swear! *Whew*!!!!
Ummm,...I do sincerely apologize to anyone whos feelings I may have hurt in this thread. Please forgive my ignorant ways. Thank you.
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I see what your saying Jon, It doesn’t bother every one up north and I don’t want you to think that every one that lives up north has a rod up there buts and bent to the left. But I have learned that if you say something that is perceived as hurtful by the recipient you simply say sorry and move on don’t sit there and continue to push buttons. (I’ve also learned don’t P(*s off my mom. But that’s another story ) Be who you want to be and say what you want to say but keep in mind that the things you say do have consequence. Mark said something that obviously bothers my Mom and Deri which in turn bothers me… ( I mean its my Mom, plus I got to hear about it all day ) Marks consequence is that now some people don’t like him, and now he is going to get flamed from here on out, but I think mark likes a good fight so he will probably be fine with that. Not trying to preach just letting some people know where I stand. It’s not a regional thing it’s just me.
Mark it’s no big deal, don’t sweat it. You would have to do more to push my buttons like making fun of Corel Draw or something haha . Besides, I kind of had to, it’s my Mom. As long as you can simply say sorry your cool in my book.
P.S. I’ll probably regret saying this later , but, it wasn’t probably the best idea for my mom to get on here after you post and post here “daily meditation” she should have just let it go. It was only going to make things worst in my opinion. But that’s my mom and that’s why I love her. hahaha
[ May 07, 2007, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Diaz ]
-------------------- Joe Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, IL 61764 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 538 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mark... I'm way to busy (turning down those Benji's) to read all the F'n up of this thread that you caused... but I will say I think you can be a real jerk & I would prefer if you started your own "ordinary jerk" threads instead of trashin' other threads.
If you are Soooooo afraid that Dan is some kind of pied piper telling you to follow him....
quit following him around spewing your malcontent loser attitude so loud that it threatens to drown out what most of us check in on his threads to find!
quote:Originally posted by Doug Allan: Mark... I'm way to busy (turning down those Benji's) to read all the F'n up of this thread that you caused... but I will say I think you can be a real jerk & I would prefer if you started your own "ordinary jerk" threads instead of trashin' other threads.
If you are Soooooo afraid that Dan is some kind of pied piper telling you to follow him....
quit following him around spewing your malcontent loser attitude so loud that it threatens to drown out what most of us check in on his threads to find!
Amazing that you read the whole thread just to say that, Doug, but I'll post whatever I dang well please in here an not be nearly as insultive and disruptive as you are, thank you.
Folks, let the records show that I have never intentionally attacked anyone in here and never will. My Momma raised me better than that. I do, however, reserve the rights to my own thoughts and as long as I observe a proper code of conduct, I can post them here. Show me where I've called anyone a bad name other than "sugar" or "sweetie", if indeed that's a bad name.
Dan post about how he runs his business. I'm not the only one questioning his methods (read the thread), but I'm the only one that really catches hell for something that really means nothing! Dan is gonna do what he does, I'm gonna do what I do, as we all are. Chill out, Douglas!
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I gues I wasn't clear.. I DIDN'T READ THE WHOLE THREAD! (however, I skimmmed enough to see the unrivaled level of repetitive disruptiveness you have risen to)
...and "jerk" may be an insulting term to you... but it's just hawaiian for a square pegheaded fool forlornly stuck among round out-of-the-box thinkers
posted
Ladies and gentlemen, let the records show that although this has been a spirited thread that has taken many turns, nothing at all really got ugly or personal until Mr. Allan jumped in with his ugly and personal attacks on me.
I think you are a nice guy, who isn't shy about sharing his point of view, and is entitled to it. I don't think you've been insulting either.
I think what happens on here is what's called the "last word" syndrome. I think that happens when people feel their view is not being heard, understood, and validated.
Sometimes I feel as though I'll say something on here and it lands on "deaf ears", just because someone doesn't acknowledge it.
I've come to realize that many people really do "hear" us even when they don't respond. Also, that not everyone will hear the same thing, or in the same way it's intended. Some will hear only what they wanna hear. But mostly, I've learned that you just can't take things personally.
"am I seeing things as they are, ... or as I am?" That's one of my fav quotes, and here's another one. "look for the glimmer of truth in every opposing opinion".
Some people will get what you are saying, and other's won't. It's a wash.
As for the honey, sugar, sweetie stuff. I don't take offense at all. You can only best determine if it's meant sincerely when its said in person.
For me, whether it's intended sincerely or as a sarcastic put down, I don't give it much energy either way.
Still, a word of advise. If you know it offends someone ... then it may be respectful of them to refrain.
~nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
I think what it comes down to is that Dan is a very talented guy and has created a niche market for himself. That talent and niche market has allowed him to gain some reasonable financial comfort over the years. In his earlier years, he probably had alot more concern for crunching the numbers than he does now. Now he has the freedom to charge what he thinks he should be getting instead of what he needs to get by. If the customer doesn't want his product, someone else will. He knows that his product is alot more valuable than a calculated profit margin. Obviously he'll make more on some jobs and less on others, but his experience will always lead him to a good profit. If a customer chooses him over the $900 guy, obviously they must have determined that he wasn't screwing them and his product has a higher value than the other guy.
Others, like myself, are in much different makets and offer a product that isn't really unique for the most part. We have to know our costs since there is ALWAYS someone down the street who will do it cheaper. If we can't make money, we can't do the job.
I always used to hear the phrase, "Double your prices and do half the amount of work". That doesn't exactly work in most markets these days. You can double your prices and be out of business real fast.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 912 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Bruce, I think your point is well stated. Doubling prices would work for someone that has previously sold their work for less than it's actually worth. But, others may already be charging what the market will bear for the type of work they do. For them, a large price increase wouldn't make sense - unless they changed the level of quality, or the type of work they were doing.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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This is probably about a good a place as any to ask y'all about a new invention I'm working on.
An Automatic Peanut-Butter & Jelly Sandwich Maker. It will have a vacuum table to hold the bread down and an optional automatic jar changer so you can select different flavors of jelly without stopping operation.
I'm still not sure about the peanut butter and jelly spreading mechanism, whether I should have a mechanical spreading device that would smear the PB&J on the bread, or design a multi-nozzle device that would squirt an even coverage on the bread.
I'm thinking of branding it MultiJam, but have also thought that PeanutBot might work too. I'm naming it the "Capt'n's Peanut Butter and Jelly (or Jam) Automatic Sandwich Maker" which seems a little cumbersome but descriptive.
Anyway, when I have it made, I'm gonna invite everyone in Letterville over for PB&J sandwiches... it's gonna be a blast!!!
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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) Be who you want to be and say what you want to say but keep in mind that the things you say do have consequence. Mark said something that obviously bothers my Mom and Deri which in turn bothers me… ( I mean its my Mom, plus I got to hear about it all day ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
, but, it wasn’t probably the best idea for my mom to get on here after you post and post here “daily meditation” she should have just let it go. It was only going to make things worst in my opinion. But that’s my mom and that’s why I love her. hahaha 
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