posted
We don't price by the hour and material costs nor by square foot in our shop. While those methods are sometimes used as a checkpoint, they don't make much sense to me.
When I first got my router and started making signs from HDU I wasn't very fast nor efficient. It was all new territory. We are still learning daily and getting faster all the time. If I had been pricing by time and materials (with a markup) my signs would have been pretty expensive at the start - comparitively. As we got better and figured things out my price would have in fact dropped significantly as I got more efficient and the work better. It doesn't make sense. The opposite should be true.
Pricing by the square foot is also almost impossible for our signs. Everything we do is dimensional, all is custom, and the work involved varies greatly from piece to piece even if the signs are roughly the same size. On one job we would do well and on the next same size sign we might be choking.
Anyone who comes to us has a pretty good idea of the type of work we do and most set us loose to be creative. We generally work by one of two ways... one is regulated by our customer's budget. If they give me say... $5000 to work with then I design something to fit that budget. Its based on value. I do up the design, they sign off on it and we make the sign.
The other approach is somewhat the same... we have a meeting to discuss the client's needs, then I go back to my drawing table and work up an outrageous design... If the customer likes the idea we discuss what it is going to take (as far as money) to pull it off. The final budget is set after the design is done.
Because our signs are so unusual in most cases my clients expect a fairly good sized price tag... it goes with the territory... but in return they get signs that draw a lot of attention and work well for them. They get what they pay for.
I did up a small sign system late last fall for a customer in the city. They had budgeted $900 for a new sign and a sign guy had taken a 50% deposit and then dissappeared. They then saw my work and contacted me about a sign. We didn't discuss budget at the initial meeting except fleetingly, they simply said to go wild. My signs came in at $7000. When I made the presentation they took one look and said GO! When I delievered the signs they were blown away! I got a call a few weeks ago from her thanking me once again for their new signs... for their business was up by 25% because of them. I provided value and based my price on that rather than the time and materials I had used to make them. They could see the value and it has been proven over the last months.
I believe we should strive to work in a standard that is as high as possible, well above the 'normal' or typical sign we see on a daily basis. If we can do this and establish a reputation for it we will separate ourselves from the competition we face daily. We will also put ourselves in a position of being able to price based on value instead of simply having to be the cheapest to get the job. Its a place I like to be!
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
Since you work and style is so unique, perhaps you can do free art to help the client establish their budget. You've apparently done very well at it. Lets all start doing this. It's going to be fun.
I can't wait to get back ot work Monday, we'll do away all those hourly charges, and forget the overhead completely. Were going for the outrageous.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
What was the point of this post again? God bless America! I hope you know a good elbow doctor cuz yours is going to get dislocated patting yourself on the back like that.
I will say this, though - you do some cool work. I checked out your website and your stuff does indeed look outrageous.
[ May 06, 2007, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Mike Normington ]
-------------------- Mike Normington Custom Graphics Burbank, IL
"The only thing permanent is change." Posts: 43 | From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sounds like my post was expressed very poorly on my part. While I am extremely proud of the work we do in our shop, pointing that out was not the intent of the post... not at all.
I hear lots of discussion here on the bb about intense competition in various areas... all the time. I hear it locally too on occasion. I hear plenty of complaints of low prices too. I also see how many price themselves based only on their time and materials... or discussions on square foot prices for various types of dimensional work... mostly too low in my experience.
While I sometimes do design work on spec when the situation calls for it, most often I charge a good dollar for it which is paid for before any production starts on a project. Ideas ARE worth a lot of money, sometimes more than the finished sign. Unless I am designing to a specified budget I find it very difficult to price an idea until it is drawn out. Explaining our ideas to a client is virtually IMPOSSIBLE without a design which is most often done as a full blown rendering. This concept art makes the sale in most cases and justifies the money we are asking for - both for the design and for the finished product.
The point of this post like many of my posts is to encourage others to try a radically different way of doing things... different than the norm. Why stay in the same rut if its not working??? I speak from hands-on experience.
Most sign shops undervalue their work, and charge too little. The sad fact though is that if someone doesn't like their price they can go down the street and get a similar sign for less in many cases. The point of my post is not to tell folks to simply charge more for the work they are currently doing for that might be hard to get away with. I would encourage those who have a desire to to improve their skills, learn new things and incorporate these things into your signs. Differentiate YOUR work from the norm and you can charge more... based on value and quality. Build it and they WILL come!
Its a fact that most people sell themselves short... way short. And when I hear of others struggling I feel the need to share what I've learned and been successful at.
We are building it here and they are coming to Yarrow...
-grampa dan
[ May 06, 2007, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks for the re-post Dan. You had me worried.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by goddinfla: Completely understood what you were saying Dan. I guess if the best you can come up with is Custom Graphics it could go over your head.
Ooh nice shot. Very weak, but nice. Custom graphics says what I do perfectly. It doesn't need to be cute like - what is yours? Oh, it's nothing. Well, I guess if it says what you do then it's perfect. BTW - " GODDinfla" ??? Get real.
Nothing went over my head. I read the post and it sounded like a grand self-congratulations. That's basically what it was. If you can't see that then maybe your head was the one being overflown.
[ May 06, 2007, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Mike Normington ]
-------------------- Mike Normington Custom Graphics Burbank, IL
"The only thing permanent is change." Posts: 43 | From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have always been convinced that Steve pays Dan mega bucks to post his "Feel good" posts. But knowing Steve, he's too cheap to do that!!!
I make a point of reading all of Dan's posts...Have never met him..But he always has an upbeat swing on things. Makes me feel good.
It beats reading the "poor me" posts that make me want to ask.."Maybe look at what you are doing wrong?"
I am by no means in the same league as Dan, either creatively or profit wise, but I like to think that his attitude has helped me in some way.
I may be wrong, but I believe that Dan pursues both creativity and profit with the same zealousness.
Looking forward to your next post Dan, from profitable Granton Ontario.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
The internet really sucks as a method of communicating sometimes. Sometimes even in real life those who don't know me take offense at what I try to say. Here on the BB its even worse I guess.
I'm passionate about what I do and do it with a vengeance. I love to share that passion and what I have learned. Sometimes when I express my thoughts badly it comes off as pompous.
Through the years so many folks have shared with me what they knew, as artists, business people, and as friends. I try my best to do the same.
When I am talking with someone in person our conversation is by mutual agreement most often. We can read each other's body language, maintain eye contact and instantly clear up any missunderstandings in real time. Its so much easier in person.
Here on the internet conversations are unsolicited, expecially the first posts in a thread. In this case I expressed an opinion and statement based on my personal experience in making signs. You replied that I had posted "a grand self-congratulations".
Then the post went downhill from there in a hurry as Dennis came to my defense. You replied and it could get real messy from here in a flash if we let it. I hope not.
Now you may think me a little proud and full of myself. You certainly wouldn't be alone. And that's OK. You may even be right.
Its my hope we can someday meet eye to eye, sit down and have a spirited discussion about the things we love and are passionate about. We may just agree on a few things, maybe not. I would suspect we at the very least would gain some respect for each other. If not we could then make a better informed decision about each other's character.
-grampa dan
[ May 06, 2007, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
quote:We don't price by the hour and material costs nor by square foot in our shop. While those methods are sometimes used as a checkpoint, they don't make much sense to me.
Am I ever getting a laugh out of this one!
Just pulling number out of you head is a real dream or is it?
You just might want to look at your next door neighbours Cow and ask 'JACK' How do we trade for 3 beans!
Please be real about.... Materials/Labour Time/ Travel Time/ Overhead/Insurance/Profit Margines/.Etc!
Man my guts are bursting!
[ May 06, 2007, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
You're right, Dan. The internet can truly suck as a place to communicate. Even phone calls are better 'cause a tone of voice can say a lot more than words. I have been misunderstood myself more than once, not just in here but on other boards and with e-mails as well, but I take it with a grain of salt. It just happens and it can happen to anyone. I try to never get into a pizzin' match in Cyber Space. It's a little like competing in the Special Olympics, IMO.
You do have me "thinking outside the box" in one regard, grampa; I want to go nation-wide, as in shipping signs across the country. Some (many) sign makers in eBay are already doing it. I'm not into the outrageous stuff like you, but more the basic CNC stuff like, well, you know what I do.
That being said, and with all due respect, you do have a way of coming across in here sometimes as "Y'all ain't doing it right! Look how I do it!" I don't think you mean to come across like that, and I do enjoy and often reply to your post (sometimes tongue-in-cheek), but I'm sure you are aware that most of us are just fine with how we "do it". For me personally and with 2.5D, a price per sq. ft. works out very nicely in most instances, thank you.
quote:Originally posted by Stephen Deveau: [QUOTE]Please be real about.... Materials/Labour Time/ Travel Time/ Overhead/Insurance/Profit Margines/.Etc!
From reading Dan's posts in the past, I never got the feeling that he is unaware of the costs associated with running his shop. On the contrary, he knows those numbers, but he also knows the value of the work. He doesn't limit his pricing to just covering the costs of doing business. He is willing to go much higher, if he feels the work is worth much more.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks Russ... THAT is what I was trying to say but obviously didn't.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
I've enjoyed your posts, also. Its sort of like you are writing your book, or memiors, on line.
If you ever do write a book, and I think you should, I won't have to read it because you have covered most of your life here already, but I would buy a copy!
Your perspective on things has merit and value. I take what I can use out of your brain, and leave the rest for that Texan guy to joke about!
But I can prove with all the break downs of cost it will only be $5,000 Talk about putting your own foot in your mouth?
I have never just gone to a Garage and said "Fix It!" I would like to know the Parts and Labour of the job. You will also never walk into a Grocery Store and pick up an item without looking at the price first.
Like asking your insurance compamy "I need insurance!" Well this is the break down on what we offer!
Now I am bursting at the seams!
Dan I am not saying your work isn't outstanding. It is Great! But over 35 years in business most customers like to see the breakdown of their project. Knowing how it was spent.
Not by pulling dollars from your hat, but providing real facts
[ May 06, 2007, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Stephen, you are comparing items that are similar, like cans of Campbell's Soup. Those things are commodities that vary little, and can be found anywhere. What about paintings from a famous artist? Those things are more than the cost of materials plus labor. The actual cost of a canvas and paint is pretty low, but the price in the gallery can be thousands and thousands of times more. If there is only one source for something, and it's something worth having, the price can be high. Would someone come into an art gallery and start griping about the cost of paint and canvas?
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, you laugh all the way to the bank with your $5000 and Dan will laugh all the way to the bank with his $10,000 and you can both be winners, Stephen. Nothing wrong with that picture. That's one of the things Dan has been saying....place yourself where there is no competition....offer a unique product. Whatever you may think of Dan's ideas and attitude...he is proof his way works and he tries to help and encourage others to think that way. I'm not sure I understand why anyone takes offense at that, but the fact that there is a large contingent that appreciate and look foward to his posts tells me it is all in the way you want to read them.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ooops, I must have thought that was worth saying twice.
[ May 06, 2007, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Thorson ]
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
Please tell myself that you insure your customer the best of materials that can be used in the Design or Image.. But you like to walk around the corner and find it for a lesser price. Now it doesn't last but you convienced your customer it was all and good. As a consumer in life I like to see the break down of if my house was made from MUD or BRICKS!!!
[ May 06, 2007, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Stephen has a good point, no? How many of us can honestly just pull a price outta our azzes without giving at least a little thought to materials, overhead, time and labor? That approach don't make much sense to me. I'm known as a lowballer, but even a catfish like me has his limits. Dan says he has no competition in this universe, so he can pretty much name any price he wants. I doubt that. I swear, I just do.
Customer: "We want a routed sign, 4 x 8, 'The Oaks at Jackson Mill' with a 3D oak tree. How much?"
Me: "$20.00."
Customer: "What? Are you outta your MIND?"
Me: "Yeah, sorry, I didn't think about it. Ummmm.....let's see,......$250,000.00."
Customer: "What? Are you outta your MIND?"
Me: "Yes."
Customer: "I see. I'll be going now. Ummm, thanks. See ya."
It ain't all about "art", y'all, even though the sign business can be "artsy". It's about profit and a fair price for a good job. There is NO universal standard as to what a fair price is in any regard and in any market. A convenience store will sell you a bottle of aspirin for twice the price at Wal Mart, but they sure are handy, aren't they? Same aspirin, though.
The best approach, IMO, is to calculate carefully the cost to do each job and decide what is a fair profit for you. It ain't rocket science. I have my own margins, as does everyone. It's just good business sense, me thinks. No?
posted
Mark, judging from what you just said, I don't think you read the previous posts. You and Stephen are comparing things like aspirin that can be bought at any store, just about anywhere. Not everything is a commodity. Not everything has an equivalent that can be found "around the corner" - or on some internet website, or wherever else you want to find it. Some things are originals - unique. The more unique your product, assuming it's something unique and valuable, the more you can charge for it.
Edited to say, Where has Dan stated that he is pulling prices out of the air?
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Russ, I've read everything. I've NEVER argued that Dan's work wasn't unique (at least it's unique in HERE), and if he can command any price he thinks of without actually sitting down and thinking about it, (materials, labor cost, time, etc.), and make a lot of money and sell lot's of jobs, GREAT!
But c'mon, man, let's keep it real amongst us "ordinary" folk. We have to consider such things like the competition down the street, shop rent, labor cost, insurance, power bills, material cost, allowances for "mistakes", rush job surcharges, PROFIT MARGINS, etc. Dan sometimes comes across like the "Pied Piper", like... "Follow me. Do what I do. Don't worry about all that. Just build it, and they will come."
Well, first ya gotta consider what he's 'building'. My guess is that maybe 10% of the folks in here run a router table, and 2% of them do exotic 3D work. I run a table, but mostly just plain Jane stuff as compared to Dan. Most folks in here are paint artist, muralist, pin strippers, or run vinyl and digital printing shops, etc. Am I wrong? If not, tell me how they (we), are supposed to follow Dan? Build what, exactly? I think most folks in here know EXACTLY what they are doing and with no more of a failure rate than in any other profession. P-R-O-F-E-S-S-I-O-N! It takes talent, education and skill to be successful in the sign biz, but no more so than it takes to be that way in any other biz, be you a plumber, electrician, carpenter, dentist, soldier, mechanic, surgeon,...whatever. You do what you do and you do the best you know how to do it.
Ain't nothing special about sign folk. Nothing special at all.
There's plumbers, electricians, carpenters, dentists, soldiers, mechanics, surgeons just about everywhere. Most do 'ordinary' work and get 'ordinary prices for their particular trade. But some manage to get only the top jobs and in the process command top dollar. You can bet if I applied the same passion and skill to any of the above as I do in my chosen trade I would be in the top 2% and commanding top dollars.
The example I quoted above in the first post of this thread was for a sign - not some fancy, schmancy sculpture... a real live SIGN and it was pretty 'ordinary' by my standards although it was out there for some. The first guy who got the job quoted $900 bucks. Unfortunately he didn't perform. The customer happened to drive by my place (90 miles from where their business is) and liked what they saw.
I gave them a tour of our facility and they liked what they saw. We talked about a sign and although they KNEW I would be much higher than the other guy they asked me to come up with a proposal. We based our designs on the same logo. The signs were the same size... they had to be to fit onto the wall.
My quote came in at $7000. The client LOVED my designs and thought they were a good value. They featured 6 layers of routed and textured HDU all hand painted.
When I delivered and installed the signs my clients were delighted. Six months later she phoned me to tell me how HAPPY they still were. She stated that their business was up no less than 25% because of the signs we did for them.
The signs I did were GREAT VALUE and the price was NOT based on time and materials. I did NOT give her a detailed accounting of how I arrived at my price, nor do I to any of our customers... ever. We both knew she could get her signs in a thousand other places... probably for less. We also both knew they would be like I made them ONLY at our place.
quote:Ain't nothing special about sign folk. Nothing special at all.
ONLY IF YOU BELIEVE THAT TO BE TRUE. I believe we have a special trade... one that requires skill and passion to do well. And if we do that and apply the added skills to develop a market for our UNIQUE product we can command TOP DOLLAR and still provide excellent value to our clients - not one based merely on our time and the materials we happen to use.
THAT'S my point!
Doin' it in little ol' Yarrow...
-grampa dan
[ May 07, 2007, 02:00 AM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Mark Tucker: if he can command any price he thinks of without actually sitting down and thinking about it, (materials, labor cost, time, etc.), and make a lot of money and sell lot's of jobs, GREAT!
Not thinking about it is your phrase, not Dan's. Where does he say that? Where does he say he doesn't know what the costs are? On a previous thread he even mentioned he has been watching for changes in the electric bill since purchasing the router. Sounds to me like he keeps track of his expenses. But, what if the numbers say he can make a profit if he sells a particular project at $5000? Is he limited to that number? Stephen seems to think he is. Dan seems to disagree.
My own interpretation of Dan's message, in a nutshell, is: You only have to ordinary if you choose to be. If you want to change your income, change your methods. Change your thinking. Change your customer's thinking. Do what you love. If you create a custom product that requires your particular skillset and creativity to produce, competition will have a difficult time duplicating it, and your customers will worry less about what it's going to cost them because you are looking for something different.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
1. All projects carry a certain value. If your work is unique and rare and people really want it, you are positioned to command the price you want and the folks who will buy it see the value in it. The median level housing market is in a slump and they're all competing on price but in the high-end home market ($3 million and more) the demand for those homes far outweigh the supply, but you can bet those high end homes are not priced just to cover labor, materials and a little profit. There's a LOT more margin in the higher end simply because the client places more value upon it despite what the actual costs are.
2. If your price is determined by what the shop around the corner charges for the same thing, your work is not unique thus it's not worth any more than anyone else's, and you have positioned yourself to be in competition with everyone else. You have no latitude in pricing whatsoever. If some other local shop will do your $10,000 project for $5,000, you either haven't sold your client on the value YOU bring to the table or YOUR work simply is not unique enough to create a very distinct difference between it and the other shop's work.
3. OF COURSE Dan is pricing work to make sure his expenses are covered. DUH!! He's covering expenses AND THEN SOME, but because of his market which he has created for himself, his expenses ARE NOT THE MAIN FACTOR DETERMINING HIS PRICES like the other biz owners here allow.
How hard is this to understand?? You charge what the job is worth, not what it costs you. However, what the job is worth SHOULD cover the costs plus much much more.
The ONLY reason to track labor and material costs on jobs is for INTERNAL USE, to see if you are making money in the end or hemorrhaging it. If you're not making money on what the jobs are worth you either need to streamline efficiency or raise prices. If raising prices puts you out of your market, you need to make the decision to either stop making the item you're losing money on, or make it so different that people just GOTTA have it and are willing to pay the premium for it because you're one of the few places they can get it.
If your customers demand an itemized list of expenses, you're not selling them on the value of your work, you're just perpetuating the commodity mindset AND you are giving them MORE opportunity to butt heads with you on the price. They'll see on your list what a 4x8 of MDO costs and now they'll want to dicker on substrate to save another $10, even though now it costs that same $10 in time to research some other suitable material.
At some point, you just have to grow a pair and take control of your own business, tell your customers "This is what will be best for you, this is how much it will cost, I'll take care of everything and you will not be disappointed."
Instill some confidence into your clients that you can provide what they really need, and they WILL put all their trust into you.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Most folks in here are paint artist, muralist, pin strippers, or run vinyl and digital printing shops, etc. Am I wrong? If not, tell me how they (we), are supposed to follow Dan? Build what, exactly?
That's for YOU to decide. Seems to me Dan has done many different trades over the years. Fine artist, muralist, sand blasted signs, themed environments, font creator and I probably missed a few in between there. I have absolutely no doubt that this isn't the last trick up his sleeve either.
No one is stuck anywhere unless that's what you're choosing to do. Ask me how I know. What the heck can I flip my vinyl biz into? I work on that thought daily.
The point is, we DO have choices and we make them daily. Seems to me everyone has the same 24/7 ahead of them. It's what you do with it that really counts.
I've said this before awhile back, but during my graphics course, my instructor told me one day, "Charge as much as you can without laughing." He meant place a worth on your 'art.' (not standard schmandard sticker output!) He was talking about logo design. Why can some places charge $2k for a logo and some only charge $250? I've charged $2k before and $250. The $2k range was when I was pumping them out and my confidence level was in high mode and I didn't flinch when I stated that price, because I truely believe that's what it was worth. In other words, my unique product was selling for that price, take it or leave it. Go ahead and try the guy down the road but it won't be the same as mine.
There ARE no set prices on unique custom work. But there is indeed industry standard pricing in place for stuff anyone can do.
quote:Originally posted by Dan Sawatzky: We don't price by the hour and material costs nor by square foot in our shop. While those methods are sometimes used as a checkpoint, they don't make much sense to me. -grampa dan
To me, THAT'S where he says it, Russ!
Now hold on here, this is a great thread and a good debate.
I was educated in the sign business by a strict boss that built his business from scratch and who was a stickler for every little detail! The man was a tyrant by any definition of the word, but a smart and successful businessman nonetheless. He was ruthless about pinching pennies until Ol' Abe SCREAMED, as well as arrogant, abrasive, demanding and EXACTING! He was a miserable SOB and I hated him at that time and for all those years, but I learned a lot from Bill. It was an 9,000 sq. ft. shop and office complex with an average of maybe 25 employees. In all those years I worked there as a designer, I can say for a fact that not one job went through without Bill's involvement and thumb print during pricing. Everything had to be accounted for before, during and even after fabrication and installation, no matter how big or small. If anything was missed, God help us! And while he had absolutely NO talents as a sign man himself as far as design and such, he retired a multi-millionaire 15 years ago at the age of 55. Raises Arabian horses on his ranch in south Florida and travels to exotic far-off places frequently. Sweet.
Bill got filthy rich in the sign business but he was nothing special other than being what he was,...a smart and competitive businessman. He wasn't doing anything the competition wasn't doing: Lit cans, plastic faces, channel letters, neon, vinyl, pole signs, installs, crane lifts, etc.
I'll be 55 in a few weeks and I'm nowhere NEAR accomplishing what Bill did and the way he did it, and I honestly can't say that I wouldn't like to.
posted
The BOTTOM LINE is what it costs in time, materials, overhead to produce a sign and provide a reasonable profit, livable income.
Every dollar above this "Bottom Line" is pure profit in your pocket. Every cent below it and you will start to struggle to make it up on the next one.
How you price a job using the bottom line depends on your market. If you are producing "competitive" signage ... yes you need to compute accurate costs. But when you can offer more in quality, uniqueness and service, the market "value" raises in a steep curve.
It boils down to experience. I can tell without figuring out detailed time, materials etc basicly what a job is worth to ME and the MARKET. That's my "Base Line". I won't go below it.
This is what Dan is saying.
I figured out long ago how much time and money I was losing doing "competative" quotes I never got or lost profit doing.
Just my 2c worth ... make that $200 ... my time is worth a lot more nowdays!
posted
Donna, honey, I don't have any beef with Dan (or anyone else in here for that matter), at all. But we all arrive at the same thing, one way or another, or we'd ALL be out of business, no?
Picture a big circle. In the center of that circle is a tiny and sometimes elusive dot called "success". That crazy dot can be interpreted many different ways. There are 360 degrees (points) of entry around the circle that lead to that dot in the middle. Pick one and go for it. I'll be the LAST one to tell you that the point of entry you picked was wrong, because although you may hit the dot, it may mean different things to you than it does to me. Kopesh?
quote:Originally posted by Jon Butterworth: The BOTTOM LINE is what it costs in time, materials, overhead to produce a sign and provide a reasonable profit, livable income.
posted
Mark, for a start I object to you refering to Donna as "Honey".
She is not your wife and in my language any else of that word in reference to a lady is demeaning.
Don't talk down to a very talented and self sufficient woman.
Your anaolgy of success leaves a lot to the imagination.
As for Dan's Posts ... I think they are constructive. Yes, we have the syndrome here in OZ of "cutting down tall poppies" ... successful people.
But Dan is SHARING his experiences. Most are good because he is successful. We can learn from that and strive to be as good because he tells us how he got there.
The biggest turning point in my life was to stop putting a dollar/cent value on things and started being me, doing what I like, loving what I do, and sharing that freedom.
posted
Well Jon, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, but where I'm from, the term "honey" is a compliment and nothing else. If a lady is nice to me, I may say, "Thank you, sweetie.", or "Thanks, honey". That's just "Southern Talk", and is meant in no way to be disrespectful. It's a natural way of speaking around these parts, and I won't apologize for it.
My analogy of success is mine alone. I'll leave yours to you. If you tell me that mine should be the same as yours, I might beg to differ, honey,...ooops, I mean, sir. In any case, I happen to LIKE your definition of success. It may not be the same as mine, but I can like and RESPECT it nonetheless.
I have not insulted anyone, especially Dan. If I have, show me where, would you? I may have questioned and challenged, but insulted? Where?
What you're missing, Jon, is that Dan enjoys a good debate and I'm trying to give him one and not be a "nod head".
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
For me personally and with 2.5D, a price per sq. ft. works out very nicely in most instances, thank you. 
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic