posted
I'm pretty old school & just recently started using Alumacore & Diabond as an alternative to MDO. We've had great response & the price increase doesn't seem to be a factor. We're ordering a lot less MDO these days.
I would love to hear & possibly see pics pertaining to the pros & cons of PVC used as exterior panels & letters.
Info on thickness recommendations & installation methods from PVC users would also be greatly appreciated.
-------------------- Michael R. Bendel Bendel Sign Co,. Inc. Sauk Rapids, MN Posts: 913 | From: Sauk Rapids, MN | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I'm guessing that PVC (Sintra, etc) panels might not be a great choice for you up in Minnesota. It gets brittle when cold, and it expands a lot in the sun (not just in the heat - a dark colored letter facing south can get pretty warm even if its only a50 degree day), and you usually have to paint it for UV resistance.
Having said that, smaller cut-out letters (under 6"?) might be a good choice for you -- no worries about snow/moisture penetration.
The Dibond and other composite sheets don't have these problems.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I'm also old school but I did make the mistake some years ago (after listening to a sign supply salesman) of using PVC panels in some 18"x 24" job site sign frames.
I should of went on my gut feeling because sure enough they expanded and warped in the hot sun. Went back to the 'ol aluminum panels I've always used.
Keep in mind the temperature change can really effect the stabilty of the material.
posted
I posted under the other post but enclose it here too, we have been using 19mm pvc for lettering and backgrounds to signs for quite awhile as HDU is hard to get here and more expensive than in the US, in larger sheet sizes we buy PVC in 3m x 2m sheets and 1.5m x 3000m sheets which is the same size as our router 10ft x 5ft
I guess none of these signs would win any awards, but they are made using 19mm pvc on the lettering, we paint them sometimes and other times front them with vinyl.
We don't use Dibond or other composite aluminium products we use 1.5mm or 1.9mm aluminium sheeting in natural anodised or powdercoated, we have our own mechanical shear and box and pan folder for doing all the returns, its much cheaper than dibond lasts just as well gets good strength from putting 25mm (1" returns) we cut a pattern for the letters drill or rout and screw the letters from the back.
No problems and we have hot summers and very cold winters. You could use aluminium backing for oval signs and rout raised frames etc etc.
Another thing we have done is rout 4mm thick aluminium use a studwelder to put nuts on the back and then bolt it to an aluminium face with distance, and face the letters with reflector aluminium, all routs well looks like stainless, and holds up outside too.
Some PVC signs:
Just edit and add that we don't use thinner pvc as outdoor substrates for signs as it does warp in the heat and crack during the winter if it blows hard for for adding dimension to aluminium backed signs its great, and we use 3mm 5mm, etc for indoor signs in stores etc
[ May 07, 2007, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Henry Barker ]
posted
Thanks for the responses. I was still undecided about the product & did pay attention to the previous post. I had many more concerns & this has helped immensely.
Dave...I thought it warranted further investigation. Thank you for your agitated (for the lack of a better word) response, I did see your pictures earlier...that's one of the reasons I thought I'd look into this further... Thank you! I don't really understand YOUR response...? My question was pretty straight forward.
Again, a sincere thank you to the rest of you who graciously responded.
-------------------- Michael R. Bendel Bendel Sign Co,. Inc. Sauk Rapids, MN Posts: 913 | From: Sauk Rapids, MN | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I think Dave and Henry both have made it clear with pics and explanations that PVC is a great product that many of us may have been overlooking for whatever reason. I know for sure that I am gonna be heading in that direction and incorporating it more and more for my 2.5D routed signs, even if I gotta (ugh) paint it.
I did a little more digging since this topic initially came up.
Just like most substrates, there are interior and exterior grades of PVC. A good example would be Kömmerling USA'sKömatex and Kömacel.
Kömatex is a great substrate for interior signage. However, from my experience, it doesn't fair well in exterior applications. • It is not dimensionally stable when exposed to temperature extremes • It does degrade with prolonged exposure to sunlignt, and • It does become brittle and it can shatter in freezing weather
Kömacel, on the other hand, is designed for exterior use. However, I have not used it for exterior signage because I've always felt that there are better substrates available.
Keeping an open mind and willing to change with the times, I do have an exterior project where I am using PVC as the sign substrate. I don't recall the brand off the top of my head. But, it was a substrate that other shops I know have used in exterior applications and my vendor recommended.
So, you just have to do some homework and choose the right product for the job.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I don't see where there should be a price increase for a sign made out of Aluminum or DiBond. In fact, unless you can sand the face, sand the edges, fill the voids, round over all the edges, paint 2 coats of primer on both sides and all edges, then the same with 2 coats of lettering enamel in less than 30 minutes, MDO costs more to make ready to letter.
I've been steering clear of PVC for exterior because of what I've heard.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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