posted
I've heard the comment here that routing 3D files takes too long to be practical. The comment got me wondering.
A wildly dimensional sign which takes up the full 4' x 8' table top can certainly take a while to route... the longest being 20 hours in our shop. That's a long time I suppose. But it has to be taken into context. Consider the piece.
The project was a highly detailed and complex sign with LOTS of dimension and textures... fancy work over every square inch. It was done in three passes... two rough cuts with a 3/8" bit and one beauty pass with a 1/8" ball nose over the entire surface with a high overlap. It was a thing of beauty.
While the router churned away I did other things in the shop, mowed the lawn and slept like a baby through the night. The file started one day and finished the next.
In the end the piece was ready... all we had to do was a few minutes of handwork and paint it. Painting the piece took just as long with the primer, base coats, coloring, glazes and gilding. When the dust had settled we turned out a wonderful sign in about 40 hours of work including the router time... not bad considering the piece.
Had we done the project by hand it would have been a far different story. It would have had to be done in multiple pieces, and many layers. Lots and lots of hand work and plenty of precision band sawing and jig saw work... all by a very skilled person. I could only imagine the hours that would have been involved.
I figure for every hour the router runs it saves us at least 4-5 hours of hand work. The reality is that many things we do with the router would be almost impossible to do by hand.
Recently we took a look at our power bill and compared it to the year previous... wanting to know just how much our bill had spiked on account of the router. I was pleasantly surprised to se it really hadn't changed.
As I gain more experience with the router I am learning to use it more wisely... routing more effectively and in less time. I'm learning to make every machine minute count. When we can do a task in a more more cost effective manner by hand we do so.
Most pieces we do are smaller and require far fewer hours to produce. Routing in layers reduces machine time and makes painting easier in many cases.
I compare the router costs and times to having a skilled employee doing the same work. The math is a no brainer for me and the router pays its way and makes us money if it only runs one day a week. Most weeks we run far more hours than that. On highly detailed and complex pieces (which are the norm in our shop) the value of the router is apparent in a very BIG way.
Having fun with the router (and making money too) in Yarrow...
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
With typical CNC router machine-time at $200/hour (typical rate used by cabinet makers) that's $4,000 in machine labor. How's that stack up against the final price of the job, Dan? I don't need specific numbers, just a "very well" or "oh crap" will do.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Same here Dan, besides, the time it's on the router is my business and nobody elses !
Here's a piece of 23'' x 47'' HDU that was on the machine overnight... I had supper with the family, enjoyed some time with Heather, watched the hockey game and like you said, slept like a baby.
The next morning, dusted the job, sanded some little lines I wanted to get rid of and started painting the job... Who else has employees doing such good labor on the night shift !!!
This is for those who realize that a router does so much more than cut flat plastic letters.
Having fun on the other side of the continent !!!
Don't mean to bump the topic Dan, it's just an example of a long job running overnight that I just finished today...
posted
This is exactly what I'm talking about Rene... and illustrates my point beautifully. Thanks!
And we did well on the job I spoke of above... The price we quoted was based on value - not machine time nor our time.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
The work of David McDonald and Gary Anderson has lead me in the direction of cutting & painting letters and ornaments as individual pieces. That way each part can be painted or gilded with less masking.
It should be mentioned, this could take more operator attention since you have the option to change up the materials to be routed. There by achieving some very interesting affects.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Dan Sawatzky: I've heard the comment here that routing 3D files takes too long to be practical. -grampa dan
I hope you're not referring to anything I said, Dan, because I didn't say that. I said that routing 3D files can take a long time (as compared to 2.5D and 2D). I stated that in a thread where I was advising people that might be thinking about investing in a CNC machine just so they might understand exactly what you're relating to,...routing full blown large and detailed 3D files takes time. Not something you're gonna pull off the table in an hour or two. I never said it wasn't practical or "You'd be better off to do it by hand."
posted
Assuming you can find customers for the 3D stuff, AND you have a reliable router and a tool changer. You should make it work second and third shift.
That is the best argument for leaving the hobby router behind and getting a commercial industrial quality unit.
Now if I just had 3 phase power....
ernie
Posts: 405 | From: Malta, NY | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I believe if you build the samples and get the outrageous 3D work out there, more than enough customers will come... from far and wide.
We don't have 3 phase power either here in our shop... but use inverters to remedy the problem. We DO have a AUTOMATIC TOOL CHANGER though... (in case you didn't know.)
-grampa dan
[ May 02, 2007, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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When Mr. D. posted his desires and criteria for a CNC, a TC was in there. So, it came with the package.
See Dan, I'm keeping up.
I full well understand Ernie Balch's view on CNC's. Most non-CNC people don't have a clue about all the options and requirements on these machines. Or what they could use or how it would fit into their kind of work.
I think 3D is great but there's tons of work to be done with a plain good old 2.5D unit.
When R. Chapman first got the hankering, I suggested to him, he would conduct business much different once he made the plunge.
Last week I asked him if the SB had proven itself to be valuable. He just laughed. It's just like your first plotter.
I love my Ez. It's a 5X10, armed with a very quiet 5hp Colombo Spindle. $14K. A plain ole 4X8 Ez is about $9K. A bargain for sure. It comes all put together, with a Mach3 installed and Vetric software. I had mine up and running in a couple of hours.
I'm not suggesting this is the only way to go. There are several CNC in this price range. Some better than others. I only have experience with Shopbot and Ez. There's also Shopsabre. It also looks very good.
Like Dan says, you should be sure about what your getting.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Well said, Joe. 3D has it's place, but 2D & 2.5D is where most of the work (and money), is at, in my experience. That's not to say that one can't do very well with 3D only, like Dan, but then who's gonna do all of the other stuff? I will.
posted
I agree for most shops the bulk of the existing and work in their immediate future will be cutting out bits and pieces for signs.... especially if they have no desire to expand their capabilities. And I also agree that type of simple work can make money for your shop and lots of it. If that's type of work satisfies you that's cool too. No problem - whatsoever.
I think most would agree with me that that type of market is also where you will get the most competition, especially as routers become more commonplace... and they will.
If you have a mind to and a passion for more creative work I believe there is just as much money to be made in that smaller segment of the market (I would argue more!). I also believe the work is much more satisfying. Its lonelier out in a niche market too and I like that a whole bunch! Its not often I get the privilege of bidding against anyone and I kinda like it that way.
Figuring out just what you need and will ultimately use in a router is a bewildering predicament to the novice... but I will guarantee you like Joe states above, it will change the way you do business, both in design and in the sign's execution. If you approach it with an open and inquiring mind there are no limits of what is possible.
When I spec'd out our router I set about doing so to purposely purchase a machine which allowed us the freedom to do virtually anything I could think of for years and years to come with few if any limitations. I wasn't out to save moeny... I was determined to spend it in such a way as to get the best possible value I could. And I spent a bunch, but in the process achieved what I set out to do.
The MultiCam has proven to live up to my dreams and was worth every penny I invested.
I can't imagine spending thousands and thousands of dollars for a CNC router only to use it like I did my jigsaw which cost just over a hundred... especially when with the application of a little imagination almost anything I could possibly imagine is suddenly possible. I couldn't imagine investing in a router and not getting the right (and ultimate) software to run it. The router certainly makes short work of cutting out accurate pieces in short order, but WHY stay there when so much more is instantly possible??? WHY?
Being creative with my router in Yarrow...
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
First it's cutting out various panels shapes, better and smoother than ever before, along with some nice letters. Low and behold you find youself making raised panels for your letters. A little area clearance here and there. And before you know it your hooked, doing some of the best work of your life.
All of this, never trying to be creative. It just happens.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Dan Sawatzky: I agree for most shops the bulk of the existing and work in their immediate future will be cutting out bits and pieces for signs.... especially if they have no desire to expand their capabilities. And I also agree that type of simple work can make money for your shop and lots of it. If that's type of work satisfies you that's cool too. No problem - whatsoever.
Being creative with my router in Yarrow...
-grampa dan
You make it sound like folks are simpletons if they're not cutting 3D only like Dan Sawatzky. Just to show you I'm no simpleton, I cut this 'sign' on my ShopBot and painted it last night:
posted
Very realistic - but your router must have had a power surge...something went very, very wrong with that sign.
Dan - a side question:
How difficult is it to create some nice wood-grain textures? I'd be very interested to see what kind of textures you came up with that have a nice blasted grain look.
Also like to know how you achieved them? Do you create them in some form of vector format first? Thanks for the info here.
I would like to do a personal sign - routed by Dennis Raap - but maybe a little different background grain texture than the last time.
My evil Grain Fraim is of little use to me anymore - just not worth the hassle.
Thanks.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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I use bitmaps to produce my woodgrain textures. Enroute (and other top end routing programs) use these bitmaps to produce G-code files which route convincingly. I have developed a variety of woodgrain and other files... some by manipulation of photographs I took of nice blasted woodgrain and more frequently from scratch as I learn what routes effectively and what doesn't. It comes from experience and experimentation. I am happiest with the files I am creating from scratch in Adobe PhotoShop.
I am working on a fair sized collection of texture files which we are thinking of marketing to router owners... but its a little ways off - probably fall before its ready. I know there are a bunch of folks who would put them to good use if such a disk were available. I also understand most folks are too busy to put in the R&D necessary to come up with their own.
Too many projects and not enough time in Yarrow...
-grampa dan
[ May 03, 2007, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Dan - that's a wonderful idea regarding the marketing of texture files for routing purposes.
So, if you were to create a woodgrain pattern by using Alien Skins' Texture program and their woodgrain effect....you might come up with something like I've shown below - just as a quickie example - and then you can give it some mega contrast and change it to a black/white bitmap image as I've also shown below, bring it into your software and adjust the 3d settings and be good to go?
And you can take these black/white images and adjust their depth, shoulder angles, high point radius, etc?
I ask these questions because I have no experience with routers...but have had a sign routered for me once. Am thinking I could provide someone with my own woodgrain texture for future signs?
or, again - a very symmetrical quickie (too consistent a pattern for sure)
To be effective the woodrain needs to be sharp on one side and blended on the other. Ideally the blended side is towards the top and the sharper side to the bottom so it catches the light and shows off the grain to its best advantage.
While good photos work good they often have to be manipulated and tweaked some. I have never liked computer generated files and I've tried a bunch as they look too even and computer generated for my taste.
These are flat grains you've shown and sandblasted wood is most often is produced as an edgegrain in real life. Varying widths and uneveness is cool. I have some in my collection with real knarly knots and splits which I really like.
It also takes some experimentation with the routing program and on the router itself to figure out what works best and what doesn't.
I've experimented with and generated some pretty convincing textures that include various aged and bent metal finishes, wood grains, rock surfaces and some others which defy description bit but look very cool.
You are on the right track.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I realize the quickies I whipped off are very "uniform" and not what I would consider a candidate for an actual route job....but just wanted to post a sample question of how the effect may get from point A to point B.
I'd be interested in a "grain" product should you come out with one. I do very little of dimensional type work, but what I've done I've really enjoyed. It might be something I'd do more of.
Any chance you can post a good close-up shot of one of your routed grain objects? I'd like to visually (edit - forgot a word) see what you mean by blended side and sharp side and how that looks in the light. I'm not quite sure I understand that.
I promise I won't do a Chinese Reverse Engineer job off it...
Thanks Dan. I really enjoy your work, the time you've invested in educating me regarding this post...and your outlook in general. Hoping some of it may rub off...hehe.
posted
Todd, The way I do it,It's actually done on shades of gray. White being highest point & black being lowest. If you do just black and white it will go from top to bottom without any variation. Here is one that I use that I made in photoshop.
-------------------- Kevin Sparling Georgia Airbrush & Signs 2323 Shallowford Rd. Marietta, GA Posts: 24 | From: Marietta, GA | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I have a sample sign hanging on my wall I use in my sales pitch when customers ask for real wood... and its a wonderful tool. Its a sandblasted cedar sign I did over 20 years ago. The sign wasn't up outside very long but it suffered the effects of the elemants just the same. Its split rather badly, delaminated some and the varnish I used to show off the beautiful woodgrain is peeling in spots.
Beside it I have some samples of our current routed Precision Board work. It features some woodgrain we make with our CNC router. Its painted with acrylic paints which I like so much better than the oil base we used to use on our signs. Customers have a tough time believing that it was done on a router... and is in fact HDU instead of real wood.
On the HDU piece I produced on the router I have so much more control over the depth of the background, the depth of the grain and even where I want to feature some knotholes and other quirky grains to their best advantage. The new pieces feature some layers and fancy borders, now so simple to do.
I also can sell the HDU signs with confidence knowing they won't throw the paint nor delaminate in a few years.
The HDU routes so fast and holds detail so well I don't think I'd ever go back to the old ways.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I hear ya, Dan, and I am fully aware of the benefits of HDU over wood for exterior applications. But Todd said he wanted a "personal" sign, so I reasoned it was for interior use,... maybe not.
If it is for interior applications, I like to use the real deal like pine. I glue it up, sand it smooth, cut it to shape on the CNC, then stain and polyurethane it. Then I apply masking, put it back on the CNC and V groove it. Paint in the V grooves, pull off the masking and I'm done. Beautiful.
Sometimes you just can't beat Mother Nature.
[ May 05, 2007, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Mark Tucker ]
posted
We all remember the Gerber 4B's. You could go to lunch & when you returned it'd just be finishing the first serif letter, but what a nice job it did! You didn't charge "by the hour" machine time. You utilized it competitively priced to hand lettering when needed.
The same goes for CNC I think. You include the daily overhead to run the machine plus profit & let 'er rip.
Trying to collect a hefty per hour price on a large project just isn't that practical.
-------------------- Michael R. Bendel Bendel Sign Co,. Inc. Sauk Rapids, MN Posts: 913 | From: Sauk Rapids, MN | Registered: Jul 2005
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-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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