posted
well we found out Gemini letters does it now we have another to add to the stack econochannel. tried to bid on job today thru a builder. buidler said customer bought his own signs and had to hire another sign company local to install. I contacted that sign company and sure enough he said it was true.
Im getting sick and tired of this. If your going to do it, just admit it. Dont act like your faithful to sign companies be cuase we are going to find out.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Shouldn't make any difference. They ask for proof that you are actually in the sign bizz. And they say to the industry only.
Does that mean except when they some customer pays full price?
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Curtis hammond: Shouldn't make any difference. They ask for proof that you are actually in the sign bizz. And they say to the industry only.
Does that mean except when they some customer pays full price?
Curtis, I'm thinking the reason they want proof you are are in the sign business, is so they don't give their "40% trade discount" to an end user, or "consumer".
Are they giving the discount to our customers?
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Folks...this is simply NOT TRUE. I've read this on here a couple of times and I'm going to respond once again and then am simply going to give up trying to convince you of something that some seem determined to believe without any sufficient proof.
Gemini does NOT sell to your customers. We probably do more than any company out there to ensure that we do not. We have no retail plan at all. It's not that we sell to them but only at the retail price...we simply do NOT SELL TO THEM PERIOD.
You would all be amazed at the length that some companies will go to in order to try and convince Gemini that they are indeed a sign company. On rare occasions, we get tricked. Part of my job as an outside representative for Gemini is to weed out any of those who have slipped through the system. I visit between 40 and 60 customers every week and over the past 3 years that I have worked for Gemini, I have removed maybe a dozen companies that were not true sign companies. Some of these would have been considered very good customers in regards to the amount of product that they were buying and etc. but they were removed regardless of how much they buy. Gemini has flat refused to sell to some very large companies that have approached us to buy direct for their new stores. Walmart, Walgreen Drug, many others.
I've seen this subject come up here a couple of times and it's always the same. The customer bought the product directly from Gemini but there is never mention of who that customer is and that makes it impossible for me to follow up on. There are many places that an end user can buy Gemini products. There are many sign companies out there now that not only have a local storefront but also an internet presence. Many of you have your own websites also. The end user may have obtained the products through those sources. There are also some sign distributors that sell Gemini products. Maybe some of them have sold to end users, I have no idea if they have or not.
All I can tell you is that Gemini goes above and beyond to prevent anybody from buying direct. To do so, the end user has gone to an awful lot of trouble to do so. They have send us tax ID numbers, yellow page ads, received a visit from me or one of the other outside reps to confirm that they are truly a sign company, etc.
I don't know what else to tell you. Give me some hard information about this alleged end user that has bought direct from Gemini and I promise you that it will be investigated.
Don Nelson
-------------------- Don Nelson Gemini dnelson@axcesswave.com Posts: 43 | From: Oberlin, OH | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Try buying building materials from a wholesale only supplier and see what happens. They will tell you darn quick that they sell only to building material retailers.
Hats off to Don Nelson for being so quick to reply. Thanks!
[ April 26, 2007, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Roy Frisby ]
-------------------- Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
OK...I'm sorry that I can't do anything about that. Some sign companies seem to not have a problem making it hard for everybody to make a living. Once again though, Gemini was mentioned as a company that sells to end users. I would challenge anybody here to call Gemini and try to buy direct as a retail customer. You won't be able to do it. It's easy enough to confirm.
Thanks, Don
-------------------- Don Nelson Gemini dnelson@axcesswave.com Posts: 43 | From: Oberlin, OH | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
__________________________________________ Yes, we WILL sell to architects. I visit with architects every week with the goal being to get Gemini products added to their specifications. We encourage them to NOT buy direct and they do not get anywhere near the same discount that sign companies get. We estimate that less that .5% of architects buy direct. __________________________________________
this was a comment made by Don Nelson on the last time I brought this up. If GM said I could buy at car at cost but encouraged me to go thru a dealer....please folks. I dont know about architects in your area but down here they are greedy and not only handle the building and interior but they like to jump in on signs. and when all is said and done WE ALL wish they would not do that. they suck at it!
ONCE AGAIN, I LOVE GEMINI ALWAYS HAVE. I ALWAYS WILL. PRODUCTS ARE AWESOME. GEMINI SELLS TO ARCHITECTS. WHICH SHOULD BE OUR CUSTOMERS. BLACK AND WHITE RIGHT THERE. why argue anymore about it?
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
"Give me some hard information about this alleged end user that has bought direct from Gemini and I promise you that it will be investigated."
Bruce, if you have a gripe about any company/supplier, a phone call prior to posting on the BB may be a better way to address the issue. Don's statement is very clear...show me what happened and I'll take care of it. Many of the other merchants here, and not here, take the same position and are more than willing to follow up a complaint.
Over the last four years, I've read dozens of posts where someone was disgruntled by a company's policies, customer services, shrinking vinyl, tech reps and numerous other complaints. Some, but not all, involved merchants here in Letterville.
I realize that one of the strongest points of even reading this board is the wealth of experience and knowledge that we all share on the BB, but in my own experience, not every single piece of advice here should be taken as absolute. There are no perfect answers here, just the best we can offer to each other.
The bottom line is that the people who manufacture and market materials to us are still the FIRST people we should contact when we have questions or problems...especially before taking our complaint to a public forum.
my 2 cents... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Let me take just a moment to tell you about the architects in my area. I just checked my database and these are the facts. My area includes OH, Western PA, Western NY, Eastern KY, WV and MI. I have 2,229 architects listed in my area. Over the past 5 years, 26 of those 2,229 architects have purchased direct from Gemini. Of those 26, all but 2 have only purchased one time and the other 2 have purchased two times. Likely for their own buildings. The total dollar value of all these orders was VERY small.
What does this mean? To me it means that architects have better ways to spend their time than worrying about things like signs that make up a very small part of anything that they design. I think that if anything, those 26 that did buy from Gemini would be pleased with the product and more likely to specify Gemini which in turn, would lead to more orders for us and therefore for you.
I hope this makes sense.
[ April 27, 2007, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Don Nelson ]
-------------------- Don Nelson Gemini dnelson@axcesswave.com Posts: 43 | From: Oberlin, OH | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I can vouch for Don AS I have been having a lot of trouble starting an account with gemini.As a brand new sign co, one man, low key operation it is difficult to break into the sign buiss in some aspects.
posted
I wish all my suppliers were as diligent in all aspects of their business, from customer service, to tech support to product quality, as Gemini is.
Don, since I see that Michigan is in your territory, if you're ever going through Michigan's Upper Peninsula, plaese stop by.
I'll be placing an order today for some letters.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5398 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
ray confronting any company about anything is waste of time these days. back a few years ago I had a problem with signwarehouse.com. emailed, called, waited, emailed, called, waited......NOTHING.
I posted on here bout their crappy service. i got a phone call from a tech rep that day! anyone that knows signwarehouse. you call tech support and they call you back 2-3 days later. it was just that way.
I respect your 2 cents but when I drop 4000.00 on some equipment I expect some tech support. when qa company says we sell ONLY to sign companies and/or designers I expect that. it did not say contractors or architects, did it.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
quote:Originally posted by Dave Sherby: I wish all my suppliers were as diligent in all aspects of their business, from customer service, to tech support to product quality, as Gemini is.
I totally agree Dave. Whatever you other heads do, don't deal with APCO. I got a shot to bid on redoing a hospital here a few years ago. I made the contacts, established raport, got the plans, called APCO and asked for a bid and they said they needed the plans. I sent them the plans but didn't hear back from them for a couple of weeks. I called and got the run around. I called the customer and they had already awarded the contract to... you guessed it - APCO.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
damn ricky you have got ot be kidding. i think they send flyers to me but I end up trashing them. hell when i submit signs to others to quote I make up fake names....I trust noone
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
I had a similar experience to Ricky's a few years ago. My alma mater needed signs for an apartment complex for student housing. They wanted very high class.
I designed the program and had samples of etched metal signs made by a company (not Gemini) and sent to me. The company's name was on the back. I almost covered it with my sticker but didn't do so and dropped off the samples. After a few weeks of no one returning my phone calls, I got a call to come and install their signs. They ordered them direct. It was the same amount of work for me but less $10K in profit.
I sent a nasty-gram to the president of the company and got a very apologetic reply. It seemed the person ordering from the college had misrepresented who they were. They weren't as diligent as Gemini.
A couple years later, the same college, "to make up for things", had us design the package for more student housing and said we were listed as a "sole source supplier" for the signs. We sent the same bid to every contractor bidding on the construction of the apartments and when it came time to actually do the job, the winning contractor bought from someone else. Once again, we were burned. If they ever call again, it will be design fees up front. I'm slowly learning.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5089 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Another bit of bad news, and this could be a trend.
Illinois State University in Normal, IL decided to open its own sign shop. Located in the Bone Student Center with an office and production in the back using college students as workers. One of the students I talked to was the son of a sign shop owner in the Chicago area. He knows what sign making is all about!
They joined the sign organizations (ISA) and others. They have a Sol-Jet and plotters. They order sign cabinets from N&F Sign supply and others. They focus on providing the various departments with low cost signage.
We have done a lot of work for ISU, and its dwindling steadily. One of these days, they will have a CNC router.
Oh well... you knew it was coming!
[ April 27, 2007, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
I'm really green, maybe someone can explain this to me?
I understand getting burned for design work, I'm a designer. But $10k profit just to resell pre-fab letters? Is it standard practice to make profit off materials, I mean above what's reasonable for stocking, accounting and whatever?
Does the same practice translate to other sign shops... for instance client A wants a digital banner, I say $500 and then pay $300 to sign shop B to do the work, then hand it over and cash the $500 cheque. Is that a no-no?
Don't take it the wrong way, like I said I don't know so much about the biz, I'm just trying to learn. Set me straight.
posted
Yes it's standard practice to make profit off materials. I can't think of any business that doesn't do it.
And I've seen one sign shop mark up another's retail price and resell. This post is about wholesalers that are selling directly to customers(not Gemini ). And customers that approach our suppliers and wholesalers.
I had a call not long ago that wanted the specific name of a simulated etch vinyl. Needless to say I didn't tell them. I figured they either wanted to ask another sign company about it or do some googling to see if they could find it on line.
posted
Gemini had billboards up in our area last year & I thought the policy there was changing. They have not. I work with several large builders in the area & they order letters & such through me because they can't do it themselves.
Companies that chose to sell to individuals lose their true "wholesale" status immediately.
Do you think you are getting better products & service when you buy something from a "wholesale warehouse" like tools or furniture for example? Not usually.
Don't sweat it & for God's sake, DON"T buy anything from them.
-------------------- Michael R. Bendel Bendel Sign Co,. Inc. Sauk Rapids, MN Posts: 913 | From: Sauk Rapids, MN | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm sorry... but I have always been under the impression that the reason for two prices that are given is to help the sign guy get what they should for the Gemini product by them posting a "List" price then offering a 40% discount.
Sometimes we use the list price sometimes we charge more... sometimes less...I just appreciate Gemini giving us the "pricing tools" we all need to operate our business.
At the very least you have the same knowledge our competitor has and we can bid as we see fit...makes for a much more even playing field when bidding.
Gemini has proven themselves to us,over and over again and I for one love their products and find their service second to no one.
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Incidently...I'd jump at the chance to Install a set of letters the customer supplies (reguardless from who)simply because it is pure profit without the responsibility involved ordering them...bringing them in and paying shipping costs.
Simply put... chances are you will get more for your install because of the time involved checking out what they have... making patterns and then doing the actual install.
Sorry... but I don't feel your pain on this one.
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
This job involved 240 signs which had to be installed with tamper resistant hardware. I had broken out the installation separately and that’s what they insisted on paying. I was foolish to agree to that price for install only since it was based on our getting the whole job in which the real money was in the wholesale to retail markup.
Also, when they ordered the tamper resistant screws, they didn’t order the bits that go with it. We had to chase them down. I always get lots of bits when I order that type of fastener. We barely worked for wages on that install, especially since it was a 60 mile round trip to the jobsite and it took several trips to do the job.
The following year, they had us install more signs they managed to order themselves and we charged considerably more for the installation and made the job worthwhile. Like I said, I’m slowly learning.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5089 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lee Kembel: I'm really green, maybe someone can explain this to me?
Say you order $500 worth of plastic letters (or anything you outsource for that matter) and charge your customer $500. Come tax time you'll probably owe about $115 Federal, $30 state sales & use tax, $30 state income tax, about $20 in overhead, accounting and administration costs (if your sales and overhead is fairly typical), your sales and consultation time that you spent with the customer, placing the order for the goods, receiving them, calling the customer, etc.; you put your own price on that but lets assume you spent 45 minutes doing all of that so we'll call it $45. You just lost $240. If you charge the typical 40% upcharge,that's barely enough to cover your cost of goods sold. Yes you'll be getting paid for the install too but that's beside the point; you can't lose money on one part and subsidize it with something else; that's just not good business practice.
David, sometimes you get the bear; sometimes he gets you. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt that Glenn Taylor did for me.
[ April 28, 2007, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Ricky Jackson ]
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I lost 2 jobs in the last 8 months because the owners called Gemini direct and got the letters. One was a resort in the lakes region and the other, a restaurant in the Dartmouth region.Even after I got them a sample.I'll think twice er' three times next time.
-------------------- Dale Flewelling Art Attack Signs & Design Newport, NH Posts: 114 | From: Newport, New Hampshire | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ricky Jackson: If you charge the typical 40% upcharge,that's barely enough to cover your cost of goods sold.
I understand charging for your costs, your time, paperwork, tax, and all. I thought profit is costs deducted. WHen I figure out painting prices I always figure actual material costs, which includes shipping, my time, etc but no profit. I always figured material costs is "what the materials cost me" (all the costs/time/etc), not profitable just a cost to cover. Maybe I'm getting too formulaic though, or have a different definition of profit.
posted
profit is the money left at the end of the day.. after every thing is paid.
That is every thing. Wages texes retirement, savings etc. 10% and the end of the day should be put away for net worth.
So, if you make intake 100 bux today. when you close teh door you should have paid every thing includign yoruself. And then put 10 bux into the coffee can.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lee Kembel: I always figure actual material costs, which includes shipping, my time, etc but no profit. I always figured material costs is "what the materials cost me" (all the costs/time/etc), not profitable just a cost to cover. Maybe I'm getting too formulaic though, or have a different definition of profit.
You should be marking up materials. Everything you buy has been marked up by the person selling it to you. Your supplier is marking up their cost before selling to you, their distributor is marking up their cost before selling to your supplier, the manufacturer is marking up their costs before selling to distributors, the folks that supply the manufacturers with raw materials to make their products are marking up their costs before selling to manufactures. Who knows who had their hands on the raw materials before the manufacturer's supplier, but you can bet they marked up their costs too!
You're just another link in the chain of product markup.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks guys, the business end is where I'm really lacking.
Sorry to sort of derail the thread, it just seemed like suppliers selling direct is good, you're not a retailer, gives you more time to make signs rather than place orders.
posted
I think that a lot of people who say that they are buying letters direct from Gemini are actually buying them from a middleman. I can not explain why people think that buying these letters this way are going to save them all kinds of money.
I have seen sign shops use that catalog's price as the installed price. That is real smart... using your mark up as the installation fee.
I have seen people buy letters off the internet from places that have them drop shipped from Gemini to the end user. That is how they look like they were bought direct. Shipped direct and bought direct are two entirely different animals. I also laugh when I find out what they paid and the hassles of dealing with yet another vendor. They saved NOTHING.
As far as people imploring you you to use celestial guidance to not buy from these vendors... whatever, dude.
I have met Don Nelson when I owned a shop in New York. He struck me as being a stand up kind of guy. I believe him when he says that Gemini works hard to prevent direct sales.
Just try calling them and asking them questions if they don't know who you are. They don't tell you jack.
I get tired of the constant tirades of people trying to prove some point or push some unknown agenda by these baseless accusations. Just because a customer said it does not make it true. Heavens to Betsy... a customer wouldn't ever lie, would they?
I have heard stories over the years about people here in Letterville here being drunks, dope smokers, crack heads, lying cheating POS, tax evaders, international gun smugglers, etc. Not to mention certain married Letterheads that have been carrying on a sordid love affair behind their spouses back for years. All great fodder for the rumor mills.
Just because someone claims it, does that really make it true? Where there is smoke, it doesn't always mean there is fire. Sometimes it is just smoke being blown up your butt.
BTW... The rumors of me being a hapless loser with a real job are true. I have a great job with a great company. Too bad.. so sad... LOL! Life really is sooooooooooo good!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have to vouch for Gemini's efforts to screen buyers. I have been using them for over 30 years and have had no problems convincing them who I am. A friend who had been in the business for many years, but had never needed Gemini's services, had to really jump through hoops a few years ago to get them to sell to him. I think I even wrote on his behalf.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5089 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I got a call from Gemini once, to verify the validity of another alleged sign company here in Maui. I forget the details, so it must have been a legit company, & not so memorable of an event, but I did appreciate that proof of their diligence.
By the way, Bruce forgot to mention that once he met me, he was convinced that I wasn't really a drunk, dope smoker, crack head, lying cheating POS, tax evading, international gun smuggler. after all.
Last year one of my clients ended up with a very expensive set of metal letters fabricated to a custom typestyle. They were Gemini letters. The client got them off the internet & then called me to install them. After 10 years of doing signs for this company, I wasn't thrilled by the obvious loss of the letter mark-up revenues... but I was rather thrilled to see that the clients secratary ordered letters to fit a 6' x 20' wall & what they got would have literally filled that wall up with letters jammed right to all 4 edges
(so I re-ordered smaller letters from Don, & someone's secratary has about 50 paperweights now)
posted
Meeting Doug in Atlantic City was a Letterhead highlight for me. He is one righteous dude.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was speachless when I read Bruce's reply this morning... but then I realized what made my "righteous dudeness" so noteworthy.
Bruce was the first guy here I ever posted an insulting comment to. I told him to "quit worrying about the speck in anothers eye & worry instead about the plank in his own" because he had taken some n00b to task for being an idiot or something... & being somewhat of a n00b myself, I got defensive.
Anyway, Bruce called me up & we were fast friends. So I realize that meeting me was about confirming that I'm not the assclown I act like half the time... or at least I don't act like one half the time in person
I'd hope that was the realization of at least half the other heads I've met since then... because I guess they might not know otherwise
Glad to have met you Bruce, (& hope it ain't the last time)
[ April 29, 2007, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic