posted April 13, 2007 01:22 AM
I registered as a visitor on these boards early last year after Googleing "Pricing HDU Signs" and ended up in Nettie's thread of the same title, where I was roundly and rightfully torched for my "low ball" pricing approach for routed HDU signs. One resident in here that flamed me, who's name I won't mention, actually confided in me later on the phone that although I was cheap, he could get it cheaper. Nevertheless, I raised my prices as far as my local market would allow. My shop is in the woods next to my house, and most of my work is sub for local small sign shops that gather and handle the customers and even furnish the HDU and files to me once the deal is done. All I gotta do most of the time is rout, paint, deliver, or install if requested. I raised my prices from $25.00 to $35.00 per sq., installs extra, always. My local shops can then mark it up and still make good money @ $60.00 per sq., even after buying the (expensive) HDU. I'm telling ya, folks, you get much higher than that in my neighborhood and you lose the job. There is a wholesaler nearby that does it everyday for $55.00 out the door and does nice, finished 2.5D work. That's just the facts. Not to mention that it's getting to where there's a ShopBot on every corner.
Now, I remember in Nettie's original thread how some in here are commanding up to $150.00 per sq. I say more power to ya. I got a couple of jobs on my own like that last year and got cocky about it. I insisted to my local sign shops that they should charge that, and I would charge them $90. They reluctantly agreed, and didn't sell a single routed sign for 3 months. They were still doing fine, as that is just a small portion of their business. I was starving. Too damn lazy to chase customers all over God's creation myself and deal with them, I relented and went back to my old deal, "$35.00 per sq., you take care of business, supply files and foam, I'll supply the paint and do the work."
Today was typical. I routed a 4 x 8 subdivision sign this morning in 2 1/2 hours. Using high-quality exterior grade latex enamel and a big drying fan, I had the background spray-painted and dry in another 3 hours with several light coats. (I don't prime HDU. Waste of primer!) 2 hours later, I had the border and text roll-painted and dry. An hour later, I delivered it to my customer (Signs By Tomorrow) and collected a check for $1,120.00. Paint cost me maybe $60.00. I made $1, 060.00 today and even had time to do a little fishing between paint coats. (I live on a lake.) I have 2 more similar signs to do next week, and several smaller ones. It's been steady and it's been good.
So here's my point: Not everyone that routs CNC can be a grandpa Dan and do exotic (and beautiful) 3D work and command fantastic prices. It's much more important to know and understand your market and be comfortable with what you do, who you are and what you're are good at. And if you're lazy like me and would rather fish than work, then you already understand the gist of my post: 'Go see the "Sticky People". Let them do the REAL work. Relax. Enjoy.'
[ April 13, 2007, 01:38 AM: Message edited by: Mark Tucker ]
posted April 13, 2007 07:08 AM
Mark, you're right, there's a tremendous difference in markets, but there's also a big difference in styles & that can play a big part in pricing. I get over $100/sq.', with doming, gold, carved appliques , etc.., over & above that. However, we usually have a pictorial, & often our signs are quite small (residential), so it's not easy to compare. Although it is generally deemed un-necessary, I always prime my HDU. 1 - it makes the finish more comparable to wood, 2- if you're gilding anything the loose chunks don't stick all over, & 3- dust & dirt don't stick as much (this is an issue because very few lakeside cottages are along paved roads). I can't get my head around router software, & I wish I could, but I don't have room, don't have 3phase, & don't want the overhead. My grandfather sold the best farm around here many years ago after his boys all left home, because it was too big to work with a team, & he couldn't get the tractor to co-operate - it wouldn't come when he called it.......... That's kind of the way I am with CNC's.
-------------------- Rodger MacMunn T.R. MacMunn & Sons C.P.207, Sharbot Lake, ON 613-279-1230 trmac@frontenac.net Posts: 472 | From: Sharbot Lake, Ontario | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted April 13, 2007 09:18 AM
I want to see some of the pictures of your $35 per sq ft HDU sandblasted Mark.
Read the post again, as I tend to overlook things the first time. So.....you are really charging $35 per sq ft for CNC work and painting backgrounds and flat front surface? And your CNC is fully paid for then?
[ April 13, 2007, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: Deri Russell ]
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted April 13, 2007 09:21 AM
Mark - if you are happy and your clients are happy, then more power to you! Since you have no time invested in either customer service or design or the cost of HDU, then you are only providing a service to other shops, which is great if that is what floats your boat. Although I don't agree with your rate, you certainly are putting up some impressive figures.
We do some work for other shops, but not all that much. Our ShopBot was purchased to allow us to do more detailed work more effeciently and to take the mundane work detail off of Mike. Anything that we do for other sign shops is considered a service to them and extra income for us.
My passion is design. My satisfaction comes from seeing what is in my head produced as a solid object. Routing work designed by other folks is mechanical, and not very satisfying...unless it was designed by Mark Yearwood (we have used the ShopBot to help out Mark).
The pricing for subcontract work is still in the formative stage. Right now I charge around $65 an hour for whatever time I have in the situation and $45 an hour for when the ShopBot is running. If I'm standing there watching it, that's $110 an hour.
We've done only a few jobs for local signmen because the price scares them off, evidently. Our pricing has the sign coming to about $60 to $75 a square foot (unfinished), and that is usually more than the other shops are getting for finished work, installed.
What we sell is design. That may be in the form of MDO and vinyl, business cards, or dimensional signs. After all is said and done, our clients are paying for the positive image we produce for their product or service.
Since I don't care for hunting or fishing, my "extra time" is spent doing just what I love to do...making signs.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Mark used some rather impressive figures. Since I wasn't there to see it happen, I take his word for the time figures. I just know that I could not have done it in that length of time.
But, my procedures may be different, and my designs may be a little more detailed.
Also, I would have had some time for consultation with the other shop owner, some time for purchasing materials (paints, etc.), clean up, etc. Maybe I'm just slow.
One process that would take us longer is that we don't roll on the text or whatever. I've just never liked the look and the detail is rather rough.
In the past, several have asked to see photos of Mark's work, just to compare his work to some of what others are doing. I know that he lost a lot of photos, but maybe you could take some of recent jobs and let us take a peek.
[ April 13, 2007, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted April 13, 2007 05:33 PM
Here's some samples, guys. (Click to enlarge) The first one is a design I did (not the sign itself, but the structure around it) that sold today. I do get to do design work on occasion and in this case the developer loved the design, which I will get paid for, and I will make the 4 x 8 D/F sign.
The rest are some of the signs that I've managed to get pictures of after they have been installed by me or others. None are particularly "fancy" or incredibly detailed. They are subdivision signs.
"Olde Trail" was one of the ones I managed to get on my own and make top dollar with no middle man. It's very nice when they come along. Meanwhile, I'll do the "sub" work all day long.
P.S. Deri, I purchased a used ShopBot about 5 years ago for $4,500.00. It has paid for itself many times over. I'm thinking about a new one, as Raymond knows, but the thing is, this 10 year old machine is still doing the job!
[ April 13, 2007, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Mark Tucker ]
posted April 13, 2007 06:24 PM
Hmmm.... Just sold two single-sided 36"x60" HDU panels, raised bevel lettering with 23k gold leaf and a black smalts background for $4500 plus installation.
posted April 13, 2007 06:24 PM
I know where you can get rid of that old shopbot when you upgrade. There is a guy in Mississippi that will take it off your hands. He might even come pick it up at no extra charge.
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Taylor: Hmmm.... Just sold two single-sided 36"x60" HDU panels, raised bevel lettering with 23k gold leaf and a black smalts background for $4500 plus installation.
Good or bad?
Not good. Not bad. Great! But I don't have much call fer fancy fan dangled work like that thar!
posted April 13, 2007 08:07 PM
But they do, Glenn. I can gold leaf and do other applications as well, but no one ever ask for it. I made some small samples last year with Zolatone http://www.zolatoneaim.com/z20_1.html backgrounds and gold leaf copy/graphics for my local sign shop customers to try and sell the look, but no luck so far. Maybe I'm just surrounded by cheap-o's, I dunno.
posted April 13, 2007 08:31 PM
"but no one ever ask for it."
And they won't, either.
From the looks of the rock work on those entrances, you are not surrounded by cheap-o's.
My ShopBot is running in the background now. Two 3' x 7' single faced dimensional signs - no gold leaf or other extra hand work. Will be finished in 100% acrylics. No installation. $7,000. (Includes posts)
And the customer came looking for a painted, MDO sign but saw the photos and samples on the wall.
They don't come in the door every day...but they do come in the door (or over the internet, or phone, etc.)
[ April 13, 2007, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted April 13, 2007 08:57 PM
Well, Raymond, I gave everyone my prices for the "upscaled" work along with the samples, but they ain't sold any yet.
"I gave 'em the price for the gold leafed version and the Zolatone, Mark, but they want the paint instead."
"Uh, well, ok."
Selling is not one of my strong points, but I'm sure I could do better if I had a storefront shop and all the overhead that comes with it. Meanwhile, I'll just stay back in the woods and let others do the selling. I'd rather just do the work as ordered and besides, selling interferes too much with fishin'.
Dang, Raymond, you're coming in at about $166.00 per sq.! Like I say, more power to ya!
[ April 13, 2007, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Mark Tucker ]
posted April 14, 2007 03:35 AM
Quit telling Mark he's under priced!
Nice work Mark. I'll be contacting you on my next 3D project! I'm sure I'm not the first one here to consider using your services. You make money, & I make money.
Between here & signcraft, when the "pricing" subject comes up, most fail to mention it's their "top end" pricing which includes gold, hand carving, detailed design, etc.
Some, like Grandpa Dan, as you mentioned & a few select others here actually demand & get those high square foot prices because they time after time create a product so superior to the norm & are widely recognised for that.
You will also get slightly exaggerated pricing estimates here as you are well aware. Some of the signcraft design/cost submissions are ridiculously priced.
Stick to your profit margin Mark & raise your prices based on demand, which you may see more of after this post.
Wishing you continued success!
-------------------- Michael R. Bendel Bendel Sign Co,. Inc. Sauk Rapids, MN Posts: 913 | From: Sauk Rapids, MN | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted April 14, 2007 09:18 AM
Like I said earlier, if you are happy and the client is happy, there is no problem.
I would not care to do subcontract work for others (using their design) for the majority of my day, but then I am not going to be making the same kind of money that Mark is...I guess it's where the satisfaction of your day comes from.
Although it sounds like money is being dumped at my front door by the barrel, remember that a few months ago I was trying to scrape enough money together to pay Mike.
A consistent cash flow from subcontract work might give more security than high end custom designs, especially in a smaller town.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted April 14, 2007 09:33 AM
I just can't waste too much time anymore with people who want to argue their right to make less money. I've resolved that it's their call.
For me, there's something that will not allow me to move backwards in my life. As I mentioned in my previous post on this topic, we were getting more than 45 per square foot back in the eighties. Redwood back then was cheaper than HDU now. Everything was cheaper.
I don't know about anyone else, but my paycheck will be moving in the direction of my cost of living. Crazy theory eh?
The value of yesterday's dollar doesn't stretch quite so far in today's market. I realize that many of you are content with the money you are bringing in. However, if you are not raising your prices, you are actually making less for a living each year. Unless you are putting in more hours.
I started that post on HDU pricing last year because of an increase in HDU prices. At that time I was feeling the increases in a lot of things. I started that post as a wake up call to those of you who are still in the dark ages with your pricing.
I'm at 125.00 per square on most dimensional signs. I'll go as low as 95. p.s. for simple signs in multitudes. My minimum for small orders is $150.00. This is pricing for basic panels, not including installs or gold leaf etc.
I had a big job last month for a regular client who is a builder. He paid an ad agency to design a more current version of his logo, and then had me redo ALL of his existing signage. Site signs, mags, permit boxes, pick up trucks, dump trucks. The gamut.
He then wanted me to do a dimensional sandblasted sign for his office. I gave him pricing for various sizes, ranging from 800.00 to 1500. bux.
His flippant response to me was, "too rich for my blood". (written in an email) I had to chuckle, as I typed out my response saying that I understood. I'd be willing to bet that he'll spring for the sandblasted sign later, when he finishes paying for the new logo and all his sign redos.
However, I was real tempted to ask him if the double garage he priced out for me 10 years ago would still be 25 thousand.
There is a double garage being built down the street from me right now to the tune of 100 grand. hmmmmm. Nothing fancy, just a garage.
So why do some people's paychex get to go up, and not others?
I say because some of us DON'T ASK!
Mark, the part of your story that really leaves me scratching my head is the number you landed BACK on. You say you tried to raise your price to from 35. to 90. per square, and when that didn't work, you went right back to 35???? huh?
I think I would have at least brought it to something in between. Maybe 65 per square? Heck, if nothing else bump yourself up at least 10 bux! Give yourself a raise buddy! Sheesh! I'd hate to have you for a boss! hahhaaa
posted April 14, 2007 11:45 AM
I've always believed that when it comes to pricing, we are our worst enemy. Not the customer. Not even the competition.
If you have what the customer wants, they'll pay for it. In many respects, it is up to us to tell the customer what he wants. The tricky part is in knowing how to do that.
posted April 14, 2007 12:21 PM
Like a lot of discussions, I think apples are being compared to oranges.
Mark is not marketing and selling a complete turnkey sign. He's not dealing with the customer, not stocking the supplies, not doing the design and generally not installing the signs. You add in a sheet of HDU with the proper markup, setup time, installation, other supplies and then figure it for retail it would give a hefty hike to his square foot price... probably put him around $100 a sq. ft.
He is basically providing a wholesale custom routing service at $35 a sq. ft. And while his customers may still be putting the final product out there for less than the high dollar figures quoted here, it's not Mark's fault, he's selling it WHOLESALE.
If he can average one 4x8 sign a day for every working day of the year, that's over $291,000 a year gross, and a LARGE percentage of that is profit when you again consider that he's not having to buy HDU and other supplies, or spend time hassling with customers and design.
And if after his power bill, maintenance etc. he can pocket $200k a year... I'd keep doing what I'm doing exactly like I'm doing it.....
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted April 14, 2007 01:46 PM
Like Nettie, I think it was a bad decision to go back to $35/sq.ft. after trying to raise the price. You could have raised it by 20%(!) and still only charge $42. Instead you raised your price by almost 260% and when it didn't work out, you went back to 0% raise.
posted April 14, 2007 06:58 PM
I think Mark is doing fine. I may have to learn his approach and buy a Shopbot, that thing must fly! He gets the sign routed before I would even have the G-code ready.
If I could crank out signs as fast as Mark does I would be thrilled. We put about 10X the work and materials into a sign and we sure don't get 10X the money.
ernie
Posts: 405 | From: Malta, NY | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted April 14, 2007 07:56 PM
Jon Jantz has me pegged. I am,in fact, a wholesaler. That is indeed the niche I have filled, and it's a good niche to be in. Very profitable and very steady. And although I do enjoy doing design work when it comes around, I'm not out to win any awards with it. The companies I deal with have their own designers. I let them fuss with the customers over design and colors, etc. I'd rather just do the work. Thank you, Jon.
I am currently working on a website that will advertise what I do and how I do it. I can buy the HDU locally (per order), and box and ship anything up to a 4 x 8 routed and painted sign nationwide for less $$$ (and faster), than most can get it down the street for. Doing one per day (or the equivalent of), is my goal. My overhead is as next to nothing as "nothing" can be. I own my shop and it's paid for. My only employee is my ShopBot, also paid for. I make good money, and in turn, I help retailers that need my services make good money.
Now, to Nettie and Lotti, I did try to find a middle ground with pricing last year after my "huge" rate increase failed miserably. A local sticky shop had a customer needing two 4 x 8 routed signs, typical subdivision type. By this time, my ShopBot had sat idle for weeks on end, so I said; "Well, let's come in at $90.00 per sq., and I'll do it for $55.00, you supply HDU as usual." We lost the job to another (well established) sign company that has a CNC and did it for $65.00. We found this out through the grape vine. I was sick! SICK! I could have made $2,240 (minus paint cost, maybe $100.00), for a couple of days work at my current rate. Instead, I got nothing. Zilch. Zippo. Nadda. Goose egg. Back to plan "A".
It's competition, folks, the good ol' American way. And I'll ask you this: If you were shopping for, let's say, a new toaster and saw one in the window at Neman-Marcus that you liked for $175.00, then went home and found the exact same toaster on eBay for $45.00 including shipping, tell me what you're gonna do. I realize this comparison is a stretch, but you catch my drift.
I'm not selling fine art. I'm selling a service.
[ April 14, 2007, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Mark Tucker ]
posted April 14, 2007 09:41 PM
Is this bottom feeding? Sound like it!
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Joe Crumley: Is this bottom feeding? Sound like it!
Well, that wouldn't be the first time you've attacked me, Joe, and probably won't be the last. You call it what you will, it doesn't bother me.
There's plenty of business out there for you "top feeders". I'm not so proud as you, and I don't ever intend to be. In the meanwhile, I'm doing just fine on the "bottom".
quote:Originally posted by Janette Balogh: We are selling a personalized item, not a toaster, which is stocked on shelves in lots.
That's besides the point, which somehow got lost. If you want to keep making less money each year, have at it.
I still don't get it. But ...what do I know.
~nettie
I'm not selling a personalized item, Nettie. I mostly sell subdivision signs. "The Oaks", "Bear's Run at Jackson Creek", "Sanctuary Hills", "The Windmills at Lost Canyon",...or whatever other ridiculous name they (the developers) can think of. They are custom made, yes, but hardly "personal". Subdivisions are springing up around here like summer flowers, there's no end to it. I don't necessarily like the over-development, but until they run out of names for them, I'll make their signs as fast as they can rip all the trees down and pave paradise, and for what I deem a fair price. Why? Because fishin' don't pay!
If all of the "Top Feeders" in here are doing as well as they claim, then they should understand that I am no threat to their pocketbook. I have repeatedly said "More Power to Ya!" I'm happy for ya! But by the same token, please don't feel sorry for me. I don't want your pity (or your scorn). I want your leftovers. I want all the folks that have enough good money to spend on a quality product but simply just can't afford your rates. Don't just send them down the river,... send them to me! Odds are, I can hook 'em up and not make a big deal about it. Just refer to me as "Catfish".
I don't have a vinyl plotter. I don't own a digital printer. I don't hand letter or pin stripe. I can hand-carve very well but I'm lazy. I can cut thinner (.040 to .080) aluminum quite well on my 'Bot, but I don't do metal as a rule, much less anything electric or illuminated. I just mostly do routed HDU, and I'm not some retired shoe salesman or bathtub re-finisher that decided to buy a CNC and start making signs. While I certainly don't know (or pretend to know) everything, my education in sign work has been extensive enough to make me a living, although I learn something new most everyday.
It may sound odd to some, but I'm in it for the money, purely and simply. I'm not out to set records or win awards. I just want the money. Show me the money.
Joe and Raymond are both regulars on the ShopBot message boards and they know as well as I do how often the post there come up that read like: "Hey! Just got my 'Bot put together! Yep! Quit my job at the factory, gonna make signs! Say, by the way, how do ya make a sign?" 6 months to a year later you see the same poster under "ShopBot for sale.".... "Slightly used 2005 PTR96 model, many extras, best offer. Local pick up only. Can't ship the damn thing." Hahaha!
You may think me foolish, or even downright stupid, but I know exactly what I'm doing with my approach and how to do it.
quote:So here's my point: Not everyone that routs CNC can be a grandpa Dan and do exotic (and beautiful) 3D work and command fantastic prices. It's much more important to know and understand your market and be comfortable with what you do, who you are and what you're are good at. And if you're lazy like me and would rather fish than work, then you already understand the gist of my post: 'Go see the "Sticky People". Let them do the REAL work. Relax. Enjoy.' [Smile]
[ April 15, 2007, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Mike Faig ]
-------------------- Mike gatlinburg Sign Crafters Posts: 1051 | From: Gatlinburg, TN | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted April 15, 2007 08:50 AM
Hiya Mark, I've been following this post for a little while now and I thought I would add in my 2¢.
I don't think you're stupid, but I think you're unaware of the disservice you're doing to yourself and your clients.
From what you describe, it sounds like you have created a decent job for yourself. However, you're really not running a business. This is not meant to be a slam, it's just my observation.
Here are some things to consider... When was the last time you took a real vacation? Do you drive a new car or truck? Are you relatively debt-free? Can you really afford to fulfill your wants and needs - like your ebay addiction? Remember, your business is supposed to provide for these want's and needs.
When it comes to running the business, here are some more things to think about... What happends when you get sick? Do you have health or life insurance? What about some sort of retirement plan? If your shop-bot breaks down tomorrow, can you afford to fix or replace it right away without affecting your client's deadline? Your router will eventually die, are you saving for a replacement? What kind of warranty do you offer? Is your business growing steadily? Do you have plans to expand and can you afford to get another router? What about offering other services?
Sooner or later, something is going to go wrong and you will have no control over it. It could be a broken machine or a material failure somewhere down the line. It could also be a lot worse too. A personal injury or other personal interruption that you can not predict or account for can kill your livelyhood and your business depends on how you react to these interruptions. You need to be prepared or insured to cover those expenses, all of which cost money.
From my experience, you can't serve 2 masters. If you're working at a wholesale level, supplying other sign companies with signage and making money, you should stick with it. Your clients will appreciate it and they will have no reason to get their own router.
Now, the moment you cross over to the retail side and start selling directly to the public, you're in a totally different ballgame. Since you're "dabbling" in retail work, I, as well as most others, would not buy from you because you're now the competition.
Also, if you're effectively marking and servicing retail clients, your expenses will go up and so should your prices. And, even though you still may be acting as a wholesaler and serving those clients, you need to start charging your wholesale client for the overhead you've created by targeting retail clients, because, if you don't raise your prices, you're headed towards bankruptcy.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted April 15, 2007 09:22 AM
So are there a bunch of "The Oaks" signs laying around on aisle nine? If they are out of them, do you think "The Oaks" will mind a "Bear's Run" instead?
Again my main point seems to get overlooked. Even when I worked for someone else, I expected a raise each year. Maybe the cost of living hasn't gone up as much in Georgia, as it certainly has in Florida in the past 10 years. I dunno. What I do know is that even if I would want to stay consistant with my income each year, that would entail an increase each year.
There is another school of thought I hear from people that I don't understand and don't sign on for. I don't let the fact that I work from my home, or that I've paid off my equipment or my home have any bearing on my pricing. For me, the payments that were made on those investments, or any money saved for not having a storefront is better served in my bank account, not anyone elses. I get to reap those rewards for the choices I've made. (which is, afterall, the reason I made them) More money to put away into savings, and more importantly, some extra to play!
Mark, just to be clear. I don't think you are foolish or stupid and I'm not expressing pity. I can't possibly feel sorry for someone whose pulling in those kind of numbers while still having time each work day for fishing. (see quote below)
quote:If he can average one 4x8 sign a day for every working day of the year, that's over $291,000 a year gross, and a LARGE percentage of that is profit when you again consider that he's not having to buy HDU and other supplies, or spend time hassling with customers and design.
And if after his power bill, maintenance etc. he can pocket $200k a year... I'd keep doing what I'm doing exactly like I'm doing it.....
If that's true, there's no argueing with that! I don't make 200 grand a year, and that would certainly go a looooong ways for me. No pity from me buster, my hats off to you!
I also don't believe anyone here sees you as a threat to their livlihood. Personally, as long as you keep those prices wholesale, I wish you lived closer to me. I'd want to paint my own panels, but having cut and routed panels actually delivered to my shop at such a reduced rate would be sweet!
~nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
quote:Originally posted by Checkers: Hiya Mark, I've been following this post for a little while now and I thought I would add in my 2¢.
I don't think you're stupid, but I think you're unaware of the disservice you're doing to yourself and your clients. )Please go on,...I'm listening.)
From what you describe, it sounds like you have created a decent job for yourself. However, you're really not running a business. (I never said I was, did I?) This is not meant to be a slam, it's just my observation. (That's cool.)
Here are some things to consider... When was the last time you took a real vacation? (My life and my work is a vacation. No,...seriously!) Do you drive a new car or truck? (1998 Toyota Tacoma, first new vehicle I ever bought. 76,000 miles. Runs like a charm. Needs a bath.) Are you relatively debt-free? (I have a mortgage like you and everyone else.) Can you really afford to fulfill your wants and needs - like your ebay addiction? (Yes. The only thing I want is more money, and the only thing I need right now is a new harmonica.) Remember, your business is supposed to provide for these want's and needs. (I don't have a business, remember?)
When it comes to running the business, here are some more things to think about... What happends when you get sick? (According to some in here, I'm already sick. But to answer your question, I try to get well.) Do you have health or life insurance? (I'm a Viet Nam vet, and I'm fully covered.) What about some sort of retirement plan? (A what??? Retire? And then do what? Rot in a rocking chair?) If your shop-bot breaks down tomorrow, can you afford to fix or replace it right away without affecting your client's deadline? (Well, yes, and I have,...more than once.) Your router will eventually die, are you saving for a replacement? (I already have two replacements ready to go at a moments notice.) What kind of warranty do you offer? ("Till Death Do Us Part.) Is your business growing steadily? (Steadily enough for me. Yes.) Do you have plans to expand and can you afford to get another router? (I have plans to expand, but not to where I'll need a 2nd CNC.) What about offering other services? (I'm thinking about starting up an internet dating service. I don't think that's been done yet.)
Sooner or later, something is going to go wrong and you will have no control over it. It could be a broken machine or a material failure somewhere down the line. It could also be a lot worse too. A personal injury or other personal interruption that you can not predict or account for can kill your livelyhood and your business depends on how you react to these interruptions. You need to be prepared or insured to cover those expenses, all of which cost money. (Are you selling insurance? You are, huh?)
From my experience, you can't serve 2 masters. If you're working at a wholesale level, supplying other sign companies with signage and making money, you should stick with it. Your clients will appreciate it and they will have no reason to get their own router. (Uh, helllloooo....!!!) Now, the moment you cross over to the retail side and start selling directly to the public, you're in a totally different ballgame. Since you're "dabbling" in retail work, I, as well as most others, would not buy from you because you're now the competition. (No I'm not, but I could be if I wanted to.)
Also, if you're effectively marking and servicing retail clients, your expenses will go up and so should your prices. And, even though you still may be acting as a wholesaler and serving those clients, you need to start charging your wholesale client for the overhead you've created by targeting retail clients, because, if you don't raise your prices, you're headed towards bankruptcy. (I don't know exactly where I misrepresented myself, but I can promise you that the last thing I ever wanna be is retail.)
Havin' fun, (Me too, and thanks for your post!)
Checkers
[ April 15, 2007, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Mark Tucker ]
posted April 15, 2007 10:42 AM
Since your're a very active contributor to Letterville, wouldn't it seem appropriate to get off the VISITOR status?
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Joe Crumley: Since your're a very active contributor to Letterville, wouldn't it seem appropriate to get off the VISITOR status?
You are correct, sir. It would be appropriate indeed, and I will do exactly that this very week. These are great boards.
I thought you'd never ask!
[ April 15, 2007, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Mark Tucker ]
posted April 15, 2007 11:09 AM
As I said before, and Jon said, and you agreed to- you aren't selling or pricing HDU sandblasted signs. You are selling CNC router work wholesale. So perhaps you named the thread wrong. It should be called HDU wholesale routing, what I charge. Because you aren't really selling HDU sandblasted signs. You have left out a high percentage of the work of sandblasted signs.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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But I don't have much call fer fancy fan dangled work like that thar! ![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
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