posted
This is the second time this has happened (previously on a roll of Intense Blue), and it seems to be specific to the individual foil. In this case it's Tomato Red, and it keeps getting these funky marks in the print - every time I try it:
I could run the whole job and the Red is the only color that would have marks. The spent foil also seems like it sags more than usual in the areas where the color is missing. Did Gerber make a change to their foils? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I would guess Russ you have an underlay image issue or nodes that are not closed? The last one on the right shows that it doesn't know where to place itself Can't seeing it as the fault of the printer.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Maybe try a test, Russ. Stick the red foil in when it's asking for another color, and see if the same thing still happens. Then maybe you can see if it's something weird with the machine, or if it really is the foil.
-------------------- Tracie Johnson Signovations Ventura, California Posts: 444 | From: Ventura, California | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
If I put in another color it will work flawlessly. The last time this happened was with a roll of Intense Blue. I did test after test. If I used any other foil it would work. Those marks are not in the file. They are made from tiny folds in the foil material. It's very frustrating.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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Not knowing exactly and I hesitate to even post. But it would appear to me that foil is wrinkling.
If you have the time you can order another foil and run it again to prove that the foil you have now may be defective.
The red that is staying inside the white slits, does that come off if you put a small piece of application tape over it then remove it? That might be just an example of over print. I have had that happen on tomato red on other jobs.
[ April 09, 2007, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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In my experience with the Gerber Edge... this type of "mark" or absence of color indicates a wrinkled foil...or a foil that is wrinkling over itself somehow as it is undwinding....
Look at it as you have the cover open and advance some foil (you can always rewind a few feet, right?)....and see if it is coming out with bridged areas in the foil or if it is advancing nice and flat...
The foil is especially suspect if you say other foil cartridges print just fine....
I say "Good call" Bob.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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I assume this is a Gerber foil and not Z-9 or Duracoat and that you are printing on Gerber material.
Cut the foil, remove the used portion and then reattach the foil to its take-up roll. Try it again and see what happens. Also try adjusting the heat/pressure setting (Light - Normal - Dark) and see if that affects anything.
If you are using 3rd party foils and vinyl, what are they?
posted
It is a Gerber foil, and the foil is indeed wrinkling over on itself. I haven't specified anything to overprint. Those marks are random, and not anywhere in the original file. I wonder if the plastic part of the foil is thinner than normal.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Russ, What Glenn says. I've had foils go slightly out of square for some reason and have done the same thing. Cut the foil and pull all of the used stuff off the take up roll. With a thin strip of double faced tape, reattach the new foil and give it a try. Or too much heat. What Glen says. . .
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1356 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
From what I've seen in the past with Summa printers (thermal resin printer, just like the Edge) what you have there is a heat problem. Too much heat for that ribbon causing it to fold/crease. Try lowering the heat spec for that ribbon and my guess is you'll be fine.
Mark
-------------------- Mark Sheflo Renton, Washington A-Squared Signs, LLC Posts: 145 | From: Renton, Washington | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Russ I've had my FX For a year and a half now, and this happens all the time, all on Super Duper Gerber foils, and let me tell you it can happen on all of them from time to time. Just imagine all the money and time going down the drain, I really wish Gerber would own up to this problem, I'm going to start rattling the cage on this, enough is enough!
What you have to do is set the speed back to Edge 1, I know that's not why we bought the machine, to go back in time, but it seems to work. This seems to stop the wrinkling, mot of the time.
This is only one of the problems with the Fx, there's still a tremendous amount of over print happening, especially noticable on fades.
Another thing that happens is "Burn Through" where the foils actually melts causing tearing and again ruining all the print.
[ April 10, 2007, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Tony It is appreciated, but, They knew about this problem from day one I bought the machine, so this is nothing new, Sorry for being straight to the point, but this has to be addressed and we need results.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I know they have heard this before. I'm just passing this on to them and letting the folks here know. Thats the best I can do. Just POINT IT OUT.
-------------------- Tony Teveris Gerber Software Engr South Windsor, CT Posts: 92 | From: South Windsor, CT | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Welllllll, if this happens to enough people and enough people lose enough money, do I smell a class action? Don't mean to be a radical but when the shoe pinches, do something to pinch back. Good Luck, I hope everything gets worked out ASAP! Don
-------------------- Donald Miner ABCO Wholesale Neon 1168 Red Hill Creek Dobson, NC Posts: 842 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Oh good grief people. Its time to get a grip.
This kind of thing happens. It happened when I had my Edge, my Edge-2 and my Edge-FX.
The problem for Gerber is to be able to track down the cause. To do this, they need information. Detailed information. The problem has to be repeatable in order to be able to track it down and solve it.
If Russ were to purchase another red foil from the same lot, does the problem repeat itself.
If Russ were to purchase another red foil from a different lot, does the problem repeat itself.
Does Russ's Edge have the latest firmware update?
Does Russ's software have the latest profile updates?
The reality is that not everyone has the exact same setup. Not every user is of the same knowlege level. This makes it difficult for any company to track down and solve any problem. I don't care who they are - Gerber, Summa, Graphtec, Roland et al.
As for me, even with the occasional wrinkle or bridging problem, my Edge makes a boatload of money for me.
********
Russ, my suggestion is that after you have tried my previous suggestions, purchase another roll of the same color foil from a different lot. If it solves the issue then I think you'll know the cause. Just contact your distributor and ask to return the defective roll.
If the problem persists, then the problem is either in the software or in the printer.
Make sure you have all the latest software updates and that your firmware is current.
If so, contact your Gerber rep and have him come down to your shop. I suspect he'll be more than happy to help get the issue resolved.
posted
Thanks Tony. I'll wait for a response. Glenn I doubt any Gerber Rep is going to come down to Newfoundland and see what problem I have..it's just to far off the beaten track.lol Lets see where this takes us.
[ April 11, 2007, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Glen's a little dingy? What did he say? Hahahahahahaha!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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My reason for posting was to document the problem we are having, and to see if it's been seen by anyone else. Apparently it has. I'm glad that Tony is passing the information along, and I hope someone at Gerber will have additional suggestions for what to do. We had already tried changing the heat settings, with no improvement. It seems like the area in the middle of the vinyl is less likely to see the problem, and the edges are more prone to it. We are finally able to get a successful print by flipping the graphic 180 degrees. Sometimes this works, and sometimes it doesn't.
The pattern of marks is very random. Sometimes it puts the marks really close, like in my photos above, and other times it will make a single mark every few feet. I spent hours trying to print some graphics for an airplane a while back. I just kept running the job over and over until I finally got a set of graphics that would work. It look the entire roll of Intense Blue, and a corresponding roll of green - not to mention the vinyl we were printing on. We had promised the customer we would have them ready so it was very frustrating.
Unfortunately our closest supplier is an hour's drive from us, and they don't have a delivery route to our area. Getting replacement foils can take a day or two.
Tomato Red is one of the foils we use most, and we haven't had any previous problems with it. I suspect that the roll of foil is the problem, but I also wonder if a different, thinner plastic sheet is being used in the foils.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Russ - I'm telling you - by the marks on that sample - the foil is wrinkling over onto itself....and leaving a void.
I feel 90% confident that the foils were wound up "off-square" from the factory....and when the foil gets pulled from one core to the other side, it is skewing itself and causing wrinkles to develop....
Did you say you tried advancing foil and watching it with the top up?? What's the foil look like as it advances from one core to the other in the cartridge? Are wrinkles popping up, then going away, then developing again....?
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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I feel 90% confident that the foils were wound up "off-square" from the factory....and when the foil gets pulled from one core to the other side, it is skewing itself and causing wrinkles to develop....
posted
That is exactly what's happening, slowing it down seems to keep it from happening. Russ you just select edge1 mode. It's in the plot menu, device select icon, then go to print mode and select edge1.
Here's a shot of a print that shows a couple of screw ups, I hope you can make out The gradient fade but it just sucks, Olympic blue on the bottom and intense red on the top, both are crap, so what do we do> We print, take out of edge, squeegee down transfer tape, take off transfer tape, which removes the overprint, reinstall on plotter then cut. Oh the wrinkling, that's what really ruined the print, and as you can seethe black extends the full width of the vinyl.
[ April 13, 2007, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
It's just a shame that you'd have to take your nice Edge FX and slow it down to old-technology mode....isn't speed one of the big selling points for that machine?
I'd be on Gerbers' case like you can't believe.
But having dealt with them on a few Edge 2 issues/Omega issues.... I wouldn't expect an expeditious response....
Hope you guys get this thing solved....have a good one.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Neil, I think it was about a year and a half ago that my boss traded "up" for the FX.
I've been working away from the office for the past few days so I haven't had a chance to inspect the foil. I will do it next week.
We sent back the last roll of Intense Blue, and we will be sending back the Tomato Red. The unfortunate thing is, stuff like this has happened at the worst times.
The first time it was graphics on a small plane. The customer was a commercial pilot that had 2 days off. He wasn't going to be available for another 2 weeks, and we had already had to cancel on him once. He was being patient, but he was anxious to get the plane done. I had run most of the job on another roll, and it was going fine. All of a sudden, with the new roll, we started seeing this problem. It was hard to know whether we should make a 2-hour round trip to get another foil, or if we should keep trying with what we had. It was random so we were getting some pieces to work, and others we had to rerun, and rerun...
This time we had a customer schedule a number of dump trucks for us. They are an earthmoving company, and this warm weather has their business hopping. The same thing happened. I was most of the way through the job on another roll, and then I switch to the new one. No problems right at the beginning, but it wasn't long after. I had promised the job by the end of the day, and I had an appointment I was supposed to leave early for. Well, I'm glad we were able to get the job finished, but I sure hate when something that should take a few minutes turns into hours.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Glad that it worked out for you Rick, but as you can see that was suggested before and I found that it worked also, but we are still waiting for an answer to the problem. When did you get an fx?
I'm starting to get a little worried that there are no solutions, after 2 years they should have a sollution by now.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
So far we have been doing jobs that have small amounts of red. I've been waiting for the creases to show up again, but so far nothing. When it does show up again, I'm going to change the speed. Hopefully that will do the trick. My boss wanted to try that instead of sending the foil back. Of course the problem will show up again when another deadline is looming.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
That's too bad, I was hopeing that someone from Gerber would have an answer.....? I'll keep checking back to see if Dana or Tony will have a solution.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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