posted
Since large image digital printing is "state of the art" in our industry can someone explain to me why the people doing it are making the same mistakes the sign industry has for centuries?
They now have the capabilities of perfectly duplicating a Rembrandt in 20 minutes and digital people are still selling their goods for a lousy $5.00 to $10.00 a square foot and some even offer discounts to other sign companies.
In my ever to be humble opinion a huge mistake has been made. Digital printing should be maybe 5 or ten times what hand lettering and vinyl applicators are charging.
Already so many have fallen into the trap of low balling one another...it's a shame that someone goes out and buys 20 to 50 thousand dollars for equipment then has to beat the same old horse for a living.
So please explain the pricing practices ?
I talked to several digital reps and asked why they don't teach their customers that it is worth so much more when you can provide people with images of their product ...children ... or even scenery that no one could reproduce in a weeks worth of work.
Their answer? "It's not our job to tell people what to charge for their work"...maybe if the reps. had taken more responsibility at their end the digital people would get what they deserve and the rest of us could get on about our business by raising our prices.
In the mean time I'll use anyone of a dozen sources for my digital work ...I mean after all why should I invest in digital when so many are giving it to me nearly for free.
Just curious ...would like to hear every ones thoughts on this.
[ March 24, 2007, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
Years ago when digital printing was in it's infancy I looked at it. The rep I talked to was a good friend and a man with a lot of insight into what was going to happen with the industry.
He warned me off! Reasons were mainly the investment at the time meant to make a buck at reasonable retail prices meant running the thing very long hours. He said that the technology was progressing at a rate that today's machines would be obsolete before they were paid off. He wasn't wrong. So unless you had extremely high volume turnover you would make a loss eventually.
This would create the vicious circle of cutting prices to increase market share, but by reducing prices you would need more volume to cover costs.
The problem is now esculating because people with investment money who are not necessarily signwriters are chasing a fast buck by buying into the industry. Money can be made but you need the volume turnover.
Thus warned, I steared clear, stuck with paint and the basic vinyl system he had sold me previously and continue to make a comfortable living. In fact my skills now demand a price higher than I ever imagined because us "old signwriters" with a brush are a vanishing breed with only a few keen to learn and replace us.
I too outsource the prints I need. I get a very good deal on high quality prints without the investment and headaches.
posted
Because they are incompetent in the business world. They may be great technicians or even be rated master at their craft. But they are terrible at running a business and placing value on what they do.
This is exactly why certain profesions banded together to form governing bodies to prevent this type of failure. This forming of a governing body is something many sign a person finds completly intolerable and out of the question. Hence, any old joe schmoe can grab some technology and open the doors in direct competition with the true masters. Once open they find themselves trapped by a $6g's note each month a month and will do anything to meet that note including giving away their work. Too many open and say " that other guy is charging way to much. I can beat that and make money and get all his customers too". Unfortunatly this sets a bench mark for others around him that is unfortunate and bordering on pure stupidity.
Why? because they do not have the training of the business side. They have no business discipline. They live in fear of failure. And they simply do not know what they do not know. I refere to one of the three laws of incompetance.
What make me so smart? I am not smart. But i do have the pleasure of past powerful experience. This is my fourth restart in life from a weather related assault. Just before this last assault I was living a business life of setting record growth and income. Each month was growing at geometric rates. The pay off of years of work was at hand. Three previous times the task was minor. That is just restart and build momentum. This time is a complete and total financial loss. I am restarting again in a new place. I lived fear before but now I live in complete confidence this will work. I charge the right amount. Already I am looking at opening a new office on a major artery of town. Where once I was broke I now have funds to reopen something.
So, I speak from pure experience and observation. Likewise, the sign biz is not the only one to suffer this way of life. It is occuring in most other unregulated professions as well. However, a few of those others are forming business training groups or whatever you wish to call their governing bodies. They are raising their level of business skills and with it a much higher level quality of life.
All of this is in my humble opinion of course.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
After what went on with the computer driven plotters when the came out, this is only a natural progression, not to mention the trade ( if you can call it that anymore ) is already over run with the "I'll do it cheaper" mentality, the price wars, in regards to digital printing, started almost immediately. I've said it before and I'll go on and say it again. There have always been people working way too cheap in the trade...................................................................................................the computers have just increased those numbers a hundred fold.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
When we first got our printer/laminator it was suggested that we charge 10x cost. I can't do that now because Tom, Dick & Harry all got new technology and are cutting each other's throat. My volume dried up. Anybody want to buy it?
-------------------- Mike gatlinburg Sign Crafters Posts: 1051 | From: Gatlinburg, TN | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Just like Curtis said, the people entering the sign industry suck when it comes to the business end.
Incidentally, when they go broke and move on to some other industry, they will fail at that too because they still haven't learned the fundamentals of business.
When the cost of entry into a trade is so low ($50k for digital equipment is pretty low and easily obtainable) plus the fact there's no *regulated* educational requirements whether it's technical ability, artistic talent, best business practices or ETHICS, you're going to have a lot of people entering the trade and fighting for the piece of pie.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Some(actually most) sell a commodity and compete on price. Some sell a professional service and charge accordingly. Actually it's more expensive to get in this business than it ever was (if you go digital). When I started you needed about $100 for brushes and paints. There were plenty of hacks then too, just seems there's more than ever.
posted
It's been my opinion lately that this industry has gone south largely due to the fact that the big equipment manufacturers prices have came down to too much of an affordable level. That might sound odd but it seems that every Joe-Blow can afford a machine of some sort and is willing to buy one. Now they can sit in their home-based garage (no offense to anyone), with a far lower overhead expense and start making signs. Now the manufacturers (both machine and media) all offer vehicle wrap training. They are essentially teaching everyone how to do the same thing, thus drving wrap prices and digital pricing down as well. Why? so they can sell more vinyl and more machines to more people. Your nowe seeing computer driven routers sold at Sears. Do you think that a vinyl plotter will never end up in some sort of similar stores ctalogue?? keep thinking it won't, but it will.
It would seem that the manufacturers would rather sell 4 $10,000 machines instead of 1 $40,000 machine. The first option probably would have kept a 'value' to our product, while the second option will ultimatley send prices in a downward spiral. This is in contrast to the old theory in this business - double your prices and take in half the workload. You'll make the same amount of money. They don't appear to be taking this approach. They seem to be taking what i'd call the "Sony/Microsoft" approach. The may be willing to make far less (if any) on a machine with the forcast of selling the supplies (games) that will be needed for these machines. Hence, why OEM parts and supplies are usually always more expensive. That's where they make their money. Look at Epson and HP. I would venture to say that the ink sales profits exceed that of the printers.
This is in no way saying that it's the manufacturers fault. We are still responsible for placing a value on our products. When their are more and more competitors in the market who have faces to feed at home, they are forced to make what they can i guess.
The manufacturers are no different. They are in the business of selling machines and vinyl and also have faces to feed. They are unfortunately at the top of the food chain and their business decisions trickly downward.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 912 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
This is addressed to no one in particular. Just a philosophical question.
We have a volume driven production vs. quality design and craftsmanship on opposite ends. They're not the same markets. Can you do both and do them well? Do you want to?
-------------------- Mike gatlinburg Sign Crafters Posts: 1051 | From: Gatlinburg, TN | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
All this sounds so sad, but it doesn't have anything to do with the SIGN business. This is the nature of business in general the world over, always been that way and always will.
As long as you are selling the exact same product as the next fellow, the only way to get steady business without slightly undercutting him is by offering a better product, better service or some other object of value that will make people choose you over him, even if you are higher. This is true no matter WHAT you are selling.
So, either you market yourself as a highend shop that convinces customers they will end up with a better product (be it design, product, or service) or compete in the beating the other guy's price game that rules the world...
I guess from that standpoint, this is some kind of self-pity party, bemoaning the by-gone days when a person could buy a vinyl cutter / digital printer / whatever and charge what they wanted... paying the machine off in short order and then making tons of money from it... BEFORE a lot of people caught on that the sign business was lucrative and easy to get into..
Now it's become just the same as the carpentry/roofing/computer repair/body shop/mechanic/rest of the trade world... to stay in business you either do it cheaper or better... you can choose.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I just drove past a restaurant that I made a "Painted" sign for in 1983 and the sign is still working and in decent shape. Today I could not see anyone getting the money that I made on that sign. Actually 2 of them... (Snapped that sign BTW) I happened to be working at a sign shop in Sacramento, at a whopping 16.50 per hr at the time and a dollar went a long way compared to todays dollar. They big money here today for a (Graphic designer) is $9.00 hr. This picture just don't look right.
Jack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I'm not surprised at all by the price wars in digital printing. Most of the people going into it are the same one's who drove vinyl pricing into the dumper and are doing it all over again with 4 foot color prints.
The saddest part is that they still haven't a clue what they are working with and what it's really capable of, preferring to slap a wide variety of bad clip art and oversized-pixel photos into bad layouts.
Just another case of making the weapons of this business widely available to people who don't know how to aim, much less aim higher...and they continue to shoot themselves in the foot repeatedly. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
We have a versacamm and it has been a good investment for us.. But then again.. we are not the lowest priced either on our work. We also wholesale to a few shops and sign designers..
We charge between 10 -15 a sq ft for digital prints..the average cost to make them range about 1.00 a sq ft. for materials.. Now if its something we have designed that of course earns us design time.. If its a big sign with a complex design.. Its not unusual for it to run to 500 plus for the design fees.. depending on how much time is involved..
If you make a quality product you can charge enough to make a pretty good profit with this machines.. The people putting out poorly designed or poorly printed products are not my competion and take no real business from me..
We have had the versacamm for about 8 months now.. and just in the last 4 weeks alone.. it has earned over what its purchase price was. ($20,ooo) I am sometimes amazed at the crap some people put out with their printers.. and have no doubt they will not be in business long.
-------------------- sue brown american instant signs pasadena, calif Posts: 90 | From: southern california | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
I have seen nothing less of the companies saying... Give me your J-Peg at 72 DPI and I will Rip it at $5.00 a square '.... Don't worry about the band lines in the print!
Hello.......
I wouldn't send anything to a printer under 266 DPI "Tiff format". Not even business Cards.
I will be charged to the specs. and I will charge the customer the same in amount and plus 'Graphics and Handling'fees.
But there is a lot of 'BEDROOM HOUSES' that will jump on the "JOB" and think the customer doesn't know any better.
So Monte I will never purchace any machinery as I will make sure when I order "A Print" if not done to specs then I will not pay for it.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Several folks have identified the problem fairly well. I think Jon Jantz made the most sense out of this.
Bill Lynch gets my vote for putting the solution into words: "Some(actually most) sell a commodity and compete on price. Some sell a professional service and charge accordingly."
And Sue gets my vote for putting that solution into the bank! good going Sue!
I brought in $20,000 from digital prints in the last 4 weeks also. (maybe we shouldn't be telling anyone )
I did 5 of these 10'x 10' prints, laminated, mounted & installed:
I also did these 12 prints, laminated & mounted to PVC, w/ custom painted backs, edges & borders and installed on this kiosk.
You hear lots of folks who don't have printers talking about how they are a bad investment because they will be worthless before they are paid for... but, with a few exceptions, you almost never hear the guys who got a printer say this (sorry Mike Faig.. I hope you can turn that situation around)
I sell full color double face 18x24 signs on .032 aluminum for $125, or 5 for $500. I'm sure I've sold at least 100 of these & my material costs are under $10 ...full color pairs of magnets for $200... and these prices are all after design fees.
Nettie is probably the one who really convinced me that asking prices higher then I even thought I should get was just another skill that takes practice... you won't get it if you don't ask.
Jon Aston was the one who helped me realize that in my efforts over the years to apply everything I've learned from Letterheads, & elsewhere, to giving my clients the most bang for the buck... I had begun to take for granted that this does have value, & not only is it the right way to push myself to stay viable in the sign trade... but I can advertise that fact AND I can charge for it.
Sure, prices are a little higher in Maui... but there are lowballers here too... I just don't stoop to that. I lose some bids, but I have many clients who wouldn't even consider shopping for alternatives. They feel that the service & workmanship & integrity they can count on from me is going to make up for any increased costs over the long haul... & I have made sure that is true for the ones who have already been around for the long haul.
"They feel that the service & workmanship & integrity they can count on from me is going to make up for any increased costs over the long haul"
It works for me..my client's trust me and I trust them.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Lets say holograms in 2025 are available to every Tom, Dick & Harry on their home computer. Your best response to this is to incorporate holograms, when needed, into your professionally produced sign products & charge accordingly.
Just because it may be newer technology that everyone can get doesn't mean you can charge 10 TIMES MORE!
The same goes for digital today. Tom, Dick & Harry's digital prints are badly designed & don't last outdoors. Supply a more professional product & charge accordingly!
Go ahead & make money.... sell the technology/digital for as much as you can get, as long as it shows demand & you are happy with the profits.
This is just the tip of the iceberg for digital technology being available to the general public if you ask me.
-------------------- Michael R. Bendel Bendel Sign Co,. Inc. Sauk Rapids, MN Posts: 913 | From: Sauk Rapids, MN | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Ive said it before and Ill say it again. owning a digital printer is not worth it. I f I can create a high res images and that can be printed by someone for 3-5 dollars a sq ft. why would I want to own a machine that the work can be subbed out for this cheap??!!
let them but their machines and beat each other down. I could care less. As long as Im turning out great work and I get a cheap price, "owning something" mena snothing to me. Im sorry it has come to this but thats just the way it is
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Well for several years I did just that. I subbed out my digital. Then it got to the point where I was spending more on shipping and the little off colour problems and time management than it was worth. I lease my printer/cutter and spend less on the lease than I was spending in "trouble." Not that it was suppliers fault. It wasn't. I just didn't know enough about the printer to get satisfaction from what I was getting back. It wasn't until I was operating it myself that I really learned the ins and outs of the game. I am really happy I lease mine now because until I did I really couldn't get the bugs out enough to be pleased with my end product. I say that, but here I am working on a Sunday morning, have started at 8:30 to work on colour correction for a file I did yesterday. So............
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Bruce... say it till you're blue in the face if you want... ignorant generalizations are not only ignorant (& inaccurate half the time)
...but proclaiming "the way it is" from way up there on your perch... doesn't change the facts you're oblivious to.
In you're little world, you may well be correct in you're assumptions, but to have the audacity to think the same factors exist globally is pure folly.
Deri is on to the fact that seems elusive to so many others.
Why is it that when we justify our own price... we think our work is NOT a commodity, by the pound...
...but then the same people think anyone who owns a printer, has the exact same value to offer when they trip over each other cutting prices??
Not only foolish logic, but while the value you DON'T get from them may be obvious sometimes... poor print quality, cheap media, unreliable response times... other times, it may sneak up on you like a repeat order printed with different settings, that doesn't match the original, or contour cutting that is not ideal for weeding.
posted
Thanks for the acknowledgement Doug. I'm really happy that I had abit of influence with your mindset about pricing. I'm very impressed with the business you are creating for yourself! That's just cool beans!
I don't take much heed to how other's are pricing their work, digital or otherwise. For me it comes down to this. There is just no way my paychecks are going to be going down each year, instead of up, just because some bozos are too wussy to make a profit.
I've been in business a long time. I've paid my dues. It's about moving forward for me, not backwards. So I prefer to remain clueless to what the clueless are doing.
If you suck in the design aspect of signmaking, you're definately not going to be confident enough, nor should you be arrogant enough to charge what digital prints are otherwise worth when created by the hands of professionals.
There are plenty of true believers mixed in with the Walmart Sign shoppers that will pay you a good wage for digital printed products exhibiting good design qualities.
These people will continue to follow you around and not complain about paying a decent wage for a decent product.
I personally wouldn't and won't do business with anyone who argues price. I feel I'm worth X amount, and if that doesn't sit well with them, I tell them to go get their graphics from the fireman down the road - but don't expect quality materials, good design, and someone professional enough to back it up.
I think if your personal business in digital printing is showing nonstop gains, then it's perfectly reasonable to consider purchasing the equipment for in-house use...why not?!
posted
Wow, I'm really glad we are not pricing in the American market. Here in New Zealand we make a great profit on our digital printing. The industry here is pretty smart and somehow at the beginning we managed to convince the market that digital print is expensive. Three years ago when we bought our Versacamm Sp-300 we were charging $190+tax per lineal metre of print. Today we are down to $140+tax. It costs us $6.92+tax per metre of vinyl and approximately $9+tax per metre for ink.
We then add on costs for laminating and installation. We do as much digital as we can as the profit margin is fantastic!!
Life is good in New Zealand!!
-------------------- Anne McDonald 17 Karnak Crescent Russley Christchurch 8042 New Zealand
"I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure" Posts: 877 | From: Christchurch | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
I sub out my printing to a very close by signshop that has a big ol Motah printer. For me it's a brezze. I get him the artwork, he prints it, I mark it up, no fuss no mess. He used to just have the Gerber printer (Which I hate) but when he upgraded, so did I (Without the expense).
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3821 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
We make money with our 30" VersaCamm...A LOT OF MONEY!!!
Our machine runs all day - every work day. I haven't done any wholesaling yet.
So much printing in fact that I bought the 54" SolJet yesterday. Monthly payments are about 700 bux - that's $ 185 per week. I'll make that IN ONE JOB!
Last week I bought 10 of those pricing guides from SignCraft. I've been passing them out to other shops in town telling them, and showing them, what I am charging and getting for my work. I let them know that I am not trying to set their prices for them but that I can charge a certain amount for a sign and stay extremely busy.
"But we can't get those prices here...."
YADA, YADA, YADA...
-------------------- Pat Neve, Jr. 321-537-8675 Capt. Sign
posted
doug...what the hell are you talking about. If you read my post you'll see alot of I's in there. Not you's or us. Im not talking about everyone Im talking about me. I never had the audacity to think anything about anyone else. those are your words
everyones situation is different. this town is overun with digital printers. Plus there are several companies in GA that are real cheap also. I take advantage of that. Im damn sure not the lowballer in this worn Im always getting beat left and right.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Well I had no intentions of stirring the pot...I'm just trying to figure out the why of digital printing...it just seems strange to me that if a customer orders a digital on one of their signs I tell them it will double their cost for the sign and nearly everytime the customer agrees that it's worth it.
It just got me to thinking...why do the digital providers leave so much money on the table...If I had enough digital work to call for it I would make the move and buy the equipment...but as long as the competition will keep it at a price I can double and keep their profit for my own I guess I'll do it as I have been.
For those of you that see digitals are worth more and are making loads of dough by pricing it right ...bless you.
For those of you that are selling it for the prices we've been getting for "just plain ole signs...think about it.
Oh and have a good day
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
I mean, I pay $7 a square to sub it out, I'm going to mark it up at *least* 100%, maybe more if the design is so cool I feel it commands more.
Considering the product you can provide with printing, eye-catching full color, design opportunities not limited by production process (like cut vinyl) that's worth way more than one or two colors of vinyl.
Nettie produced some prints for me. I photographed a family that races jetskis. They wanted full length portraits, printed at ACTUAL SIZE, to put on their enclosed trailer. When the prints came in, they were so astounded, they were literally standing beside themselves. HYUK-HYUK!! LOL. Seriously though, when you see and touch something like that up close, it is just SO impressive. It's worth every penny.
I also relate the outdoor digital pricing to what it costs me to order a poster sized enlargement from a photo lab. The outdoor digital stuff needs to cost MORE than an indoor photographic print from a lab and that's how I price it, yet there are people pricing outdoor stuff below the rate for indoor.
One day I would like to have my own printing setup and that day will come when I have a solid market for it. I'm working on that right now, not because that's where I think the industry is headed but because it compliments my photography and design services which I am pushing more and more.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Monte, I think there are two very different situations that affect the pricing of digital prints.
If you are selling an exterior sign, the cost of the print is irrelevant. The price of that sign is based on the value of that sign, not the commodity price of the print that happens to be on it.
If you're selling print output only, you are often in competition with some pretty big players. The large photo reproduction houses are now all digital and they run million dollar production machines that they have to keep busy. It's impossible for a small sign shop to compete with them on price.
They are the ones who have lowered the market price, not the little shops. And they do it based on sound economics, not stupidity. Their printers cost them almost nothing to run. Their material cost is often less than fifty cents a foot.
So they do pretty well selling for $5 or $8 per foot.
And a small shop can either sell to a different client or use the print in a value added way, such as you do on your signs.
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Wow, there are some good thoughts here and a very good thread too. For the last 11 years I've been charging $5 sq. ft. for plain, no frills cut vinyl. It comes off a $2,000 plotter. Why in the world would I pay $30,000 for a printer that takes up a lot of room, another $3,000 for RIP software, PhotoShop and a spectrophotometer, attend classes to learn color management, buy special inks, spend time correcting colors, and charge the same or less? We've got an HP5000 (60" using UV inks) that paid for itself in the first year. It's not the latest thing out but for what we use it for it's great; it outputs beautiful stuff and it's fast.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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