i just finished scraping off about 14 feet of 12" high cheapass red helvetica letters from a metal panel that was painted with drippy house-paint. this sign is _not_ new.
the cheapass red vinyl left a lot of adhesive behind. i tried the rapid-remover but there's just too much goo up there. can i just prime over it? what kind of primer? Jay Cooke's, 1-Shot Acrylic Bondig Primer, or what?
the sign is 18' off the ground, so minor imperfections will probably not be noticed. (i'm not sanding down the housepaint either.)
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
And so the now lazy signdude is gonna paint over left behind adhesive from the cheapass red vinyl just to re-do signage for another cheapass customer.
Umm, a match made in heaven
BTW Scooter I'd love to have the talent to know the difference between house paint and sign enamel just by looking at it
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
hi Joey, although you didn't help answer my question, I'll answer yours.
House paint is soft, and has a lot of builders/fillers to make it cover and seal rough textures. House paint is also not high gloss, and doesn't usually have much pigment.
Sign enamels are designed, as I expect you know, to be thin, opaque, glossy high-color coatings.
Since the paint I'm dealing with is off-white, eggshell finish, very thick, soft (I can score it with my fingernail) and poorly applied, I'm calling it house paint. I suppose I could be pointy-ass and refer to it as "economy grade latex emulsion."
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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Yes, Joey, I hope some day you'll have the ability to tell sign enamel from house paint just by looking. I can only tell up-close when I'm scraping at it.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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I'd be concerned with priming over that crap. Even if the customer is "willing to accept it", I doubt he'll be too happy in a year.
There used to be a product called "TiCote". It was used as a barrier coat so you could paint enamel over a vinyl banner. I would think that something like that would prevent the migration of the adhesive a bit better. I don't know if it's still available. On the other hand, Frog Juice may even work. No guarantees.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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I think you could use Zinser or any alchohol based primer. Kills would be good also as long as you don't get the water based version.
I don't want to lecture but really!
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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NO. Do it right. OR pass on it. But, don't do it cheap.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Hiya Scooter, I agree with Curtis on this. Do it right or pass on the job. Even with a good primer, the adhesive will eventually shrink, crack and disfigure any paint or coating you try to cover it with. Just break out the Rapid Remover and let it soak for a while and scrape the adheasive off. It's a few minutes of extra work, but the finished product will be 100%.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Any adhesive left behind will break down after time and ruin the finish. Soak rags/paper towels with Rapid remover and let it sit for a good time, then scrape off the adhesive with a plastic squeegee. It may take several tries, but leaving the adhesive on is sure to make for a failure sooner than later.
Scuff the whole thing down with a scotch Brite pad and repaint as needed.
Hope this helps... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
This whole scenario is absolutely rediculouse!
Why would anyone want to spend hours peeling vinly then cleaning residue off an old sign repainted with crappy paint.... 18 feet in the air ? Then have to repaint the background and reletter, hopefully off a manlift, and not a ladder!
Wouldn't it be easier, cheaper and result in a good looking sign....simply have a couple of sheets of aluminum cut to fit, and lettered in your shop, then screwed or riveted in place?
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Scooter, I agree with Si. Aluminum will cost less that the labor it will take to remove old vinyl and adhesive. I would rather replace the material any day than remove old brittle vinyl and all the adhesive that's left behind. Has anybody ever used a steamer to remove old vinyl like this? I hear it will remove all vinyl and adhesive. I bought a steamer but have not used it yet. If a steamer removes everything and does it quickly then it might be feasible to remove the vinyl. Judy
-------------------- Judy Pate Signs By Judy Albany, Georgia USA 229-435-6824
Live simply...Love generously...Care deeply...Speak kindly...Leave the rest to God. Posts: 2621 | From: Albany,GA,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
typical of this industry i guess....i often wonder why people go through these procedures when they could save themselves time & $$ and face it with aluminum. listen to da man si!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I agree with Si as well. Any money spent to pay me to go 18 ft in the air, scrape off vinyl and repaint, would be better spent on a new substrate and provide a better product for the customer. Just my humble opinion.
Of course, sometimes the customers have other ideas.
-------------------- Patrick Wedel North Country Signs Barron, Wisconsin Posts: 72 | From: Barron, WI | Registered: Dec 2004
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#2 Rule: Never do a half arse job ... it will return to bite you in the bum every time!
#3 Rule: Unless it's Heritage listed, never restore ... replace. 99% of the time it will be easier and cheaper.
Take Si's advise ... he's been there, done that. Few of us have too!
Edited to PS:
At that height why bother cleaning off the vinyl? I've just undercoated straight over the lot, repainted and then lettered the sign. That's the 1% of rule #3
But then Rule #2 applies because the vinyl will continue to shrink and open up gaps in the top coat!!!!!
[ March 15, 2007, 05:12 AM: Message edited by: Jon Butterworth ]
posted
that's why I suggested the cheapy option of screwing a banner over it- lettered at ground height of course. Short term & cheap, but you're not likely to get blamed for failure in three year's time.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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The sign says "Extra Parking In Rear" and it isn't really worth the extra $250 to reface. Especially since I bid the job already, and I really hate to go back and try to ask for 50% more.
The sign panel is 24' long... so refacing would cost me a lot of time and effort - 3 sheets of aluminum, plus a lot of tricky work on a 20' ladder. (The offending adhesive area is only 12' long). I tried the "rag soaked with Rapid Remover" but there is so much residue, and so much texture, that it was taking about 20 minutes per letter.
I've primed it with 1-shot Acryllic Bonding Primer (which is made to go over vinyl) and I'm going to cover it over with the background color. I warned the guy what the problems are and he said he'll probably move in 3 years, so I'm gonna X my fingers and see what happens.
I'll let you all know in a few years.
Oh, I would have painted over the vinyl to begin with, but it was curling up so much on the corners that I had scrape it off.
Its a sucky job either way. If it was for something better than a parking lot sign i would reface it.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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NEVER give a firm price on removing and cleaning old signs.... doesn't matter if it is 20 feet in the air, or a pickup sitting in your parking lot! It will ALWAYS come back to bite you in the butt!
Simply give them an estimate... if they don't agree, tell them to call you AFTER it has been all cleaned up! Once they try to clean it themself, they will be back and gladly pay your price!
[ March 15, 2007, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
good advice, but too late to solve this job...
i'm counting on the guy going out of business before the sign fails, and then i'll get to re-do the job again the right way. (well, he said he's retiring in a few years...)
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Scooter, I know I'm too late on this one, but anytime you have old vinyl and glue to deal with and it is a cheap temporary big outdoor job like that, get some dtm acrylic from sherwin williams give it two or three coats and press on. It dries in about an hr for the coats, makes a thick coat and covers anything. Letter on it with enamel, it stays a bit sticky but will do fine. Bill
-------------------- Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud 10 year Supporter of the Letterheads Website www.artssigns.com "MrBill-" on the chat page MailTo:biggsbb@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
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