posted
I've never trusted Sintra but seems like the trade loves it. Recently I had 12 signs returned because vinyl didn't stick to it -- peels off like static cling. I denatured the surface and painted it with 1Shot. 1shot peels off the same way.
Anybody got a clue?
-------------------- Bob Parsons 907-258-6283 rparsons@gci.net Posts: 118 | From: Anchorage, AK / USA | Registered: Aug 1999
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What if you took the 1shot lettering, turned them over, hosed them down with super 77 then stuck them down on some aluminum? Seriously, I don't have the slightest idea what to do about that; with it being a common signage material it would seem logical that common signage materials would stick to it. I know that they make Sintra Top, which has one side that is very slick and the other side the leathery texture. If you used that material and used the slick side I can see there being problems. I can just see you sticking down the vinyl then overlaming it, wrapping it around the other side and sticking it back onto itself like a big christmas wrap, LOL.
BTW, are the kings running yet?
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Hiya Bob, I've been using Sintra and Komatex for years and never had a problem with vinyl not sticking. I don't do much painting so I can't comment there. I think your method of preparation is questionable and would recommend that you don't use denatured alcohol. If you wikipediadenatured alcohol, you discover that one of the additives in it is Naphtha, which contains paraffin. In overly simple terms, is wax. So, I would suggest that switch to Rapid Prep or, at least, Rapid Tac as your cleaners. If you've never used them before, call or email Roger or Jeff and they'll send you some free samples. Just out of curiosity, what brand and grade of vinyl did you use?
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Vinyl is highperformance Gerber. Interesting observation on Denatured Alch. That's been my default cleaner for years... never knew that particular fact before. We don't have Rapid tac up here. Maybe I can get Sun Supply to get me some.
Thanks,
ricky... a bit early for kings in the rivers. but they do hang out in Kachemak Bay all year. Many folks don't know that. Some of those kings have all white meat too!
bp
-------------------- Bob Parsons 907-258-6283 rparsons@gci.net Posts: 118 | From: Anchorage, AK / USA | Registered: Aug 1999
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Yeah, I was just trying to get your blood pumping good. It's been two years since I've been to Homer; that's TOO long!! I've never had a white king but if they are better than the normals ones they're off the scale. We entertained guests and had meals for a year off that 63 lb Kenai monster that I caught with the Guffer.
BTW, thanks to Checkers for the heads up about denatured alcohol; I wasn't aware that it had naptha.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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I do pretty much the same as he suggest except that I clean the surface first with Rapid Prep to remove any oil or grease and then do a follow-up with Rapid Tac to neutralize the Rapid Prep.
Its probably overkill (which tends to be SOP around here), but I've not had any failures.
posted
I've not had that problem with vinyl, and I use denatured a lot. As for the paint I've done a bit and we scuff lightly, clean with denatured and paint. I wonder if it's the material? Is it Sintra brand? Because that's the one I prefer.
posted
Gents, thanks for the time and expertise on the subject. At Sun Supply my rep was all about trying to make this ordeal right if it was material or vinyl. We put vinyl on the Sintra they had in stock and it just doesn't stick like it does to a truck door, glass or even plex. You gotta admit to that. It makes me nervous. I don't have a good track record with it that's for sure. But I sure appreciate your time!
bp
-------------------- Bob Parsons 907-258-6283 rparsons@gci.net Posts: 118 | From: Anchorage, AK / USA | Registered: Aug 1999
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Hello Bob! We use sintra Id say almost daily(mostly routered then painted) Any time the application calls for vinyl on sintra its been strictly interior. As far as the 1-shot we have to prime our letters to get pretty much any paint to stick. I know mary at sun usually has rapid tac but havent seen prep over there in a few months or maybe even years. Love your work and always been a big fan. Hunter
posted
Si, there are actually hundreds of differing formulas for alcohol, denatured and/or iso. Your spot on, "who knows whats in it".
Glad folks are starting to "get it" about the cleaning practices they use, even if they were told by film manufacturers (dosn' make it right)to use these solvents/
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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I had a run in with that problem several years ago as well. My supplier TOLD me to use isop whatever alchohol. I did a test patch. Still not good. I then flipped to prep and tac, test patch, better but not great.
I replaced much of the vinyl on the sign and watched it for quite awhile driving by on occasion. Never did fully figure out the issue, but I even ordered up new vinyl in case that was the culprit.
I've used sintra for years and this was my first failure at it as well and naturally it was a 4' x 8' sign too. One blames the other, it's the cleaners, no, the vinyl, no the crazy sintra. Never did come to a conclusion on the whole thing but I've never used it since. Just can't take chances like that.
My theory is there was a slick coating on the sintra that was embedded. It was part of the substrate IMO. Some plastics just do not take vinyls well (I do some plastic race car pods for a friend and vinyl flakes off them, just the way it is) and I fear someone messed with the recipe on this product. Use with caution.
Nice to know we've bonded over not bonding. There's a cartoon in there somewhere!
How about this: 3 substrates walk into a bar. They all order beers. HDU doesn't drink his because he feels like a cannibal because of the high density foam. MDO doesn't drink his because his edges delam after spilling a bit on himself. The Sintra panel doesn't drink his because he keeps sliding off the vinyl barstool.
Oh well....
thanks again for chimin' in
-------------------- Bob Parsons 907-258-6283 rparsons@gci.net Posts: 118 | From: Anchorage, AK / USA | Registered: Aug 1999
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Hey Bob, We use Grip Guards Acrylic Polyrestofthebigwordhere Base clear. For all the GG and GG+ we use that clear first on all non metal surfaces. If Im just edge painteing I'll skip the clear and jump in with the one shot. Aaron PS on getting vinyl to adhere better I often use a heat gun and rag to really get the adhesive gelled and in all the lil inconsistances of the pvc surface.
posted
A moose goes into a bar... the bartender says "Why the long face?"
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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The fabrication manual for Sintra says to clean it with vinegar. We did that for a year but didn't notice any difference between the adhesion when we used vinegar or alcohol. The constant smell of Easter eggs got to me, but it is cheap and readily available.
I used to use Naptha because it flashed so quickly that I preferred it to alcohol.
And of all the choices mentioned, I think Rapid is probably the best bet.
To paint PVC, it is recommended to use a two part paint system. We use Matthews acrylic urethane and have excellent results.
To paint with one part paints, we used to prime with lacquer, but I don't know if lacquer is still available.
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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Ok, ok... A walldog is trying to layout a 4' letter P on a bill board. He's having great difficulty with the P because of an enlarged substrate...
How's that?
(ricky. the rule is you have to make up your own joke)
-------------------- Bob Parsons 907-258-6283 rparsons@gci.net Posts: 118 | From: Anchorage, AK / USA | Registered: Aug 1999
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![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
Seriously, I don't have the slightest idea what to do about that; with it being a common signage material it would seem logical that common signage materials would stick to it. I know that they make Sintra Top, which has one side that is very slick and the other side the leathery texture. If you used that material and used the slick side I can see there being problems. I can just see you sticking down the vinyl then overlaming it, wrapping it around the other side and sticking it back onto itself like a big christmas wrap, LOL. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[For Your Information]](graemlins/fyi.gif)
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
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