posted
Here we go again... Another company just informed us that "it seems like you don't want to do business with our company" since you had the audacity to ask for earnest money up front for a sketch.
This has been the worse condition of our trade lately -- that there are those among us who sketch and design for free in order to buy jobs. Customers now feel this is standard throughout our trade and feel you have something against them if you dare charge for sketches and or ideas.
Hey let's all just work for nothing and when the mortgage is due on the house and we can't pay it, all we have to do is go to the banker and explain -- "Hey, this last month I spent more time doing sketches for nothing than normal and the cash flow has dried up, so you'll get your money when I get some of these jobs."
Let's all wake up here!!!!!!
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Just send him to your website and tell him it is not only a sketch fee it is a fee to guarentee that you can take him as a new client. You are way to busy to take on every lookiloo.
Maybe I can get a couple plumbers to try out for my next plumbing job.....hmmm
-------------------- Steve Eisenreich Dezine Signs PO BOX 6052 Stn Forces Cold Lake, Alberta T9M 2C5 Posts: 774 | From: Cold Lake | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I find that if I carefully explain that an ESTIMATE is free, but to design something is where the MOST IMPORTANT work starts. It sometimes takes several hours. I use to make hand drawn color sketches all the time for people. Half the time they wouldn't even come back to see them! Now days I take a $150 deposit, and still sometimes they never come in to see. But I got paid!
[ February 02, 2007, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: John Arnott ]
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I stopped designing in front of the customer, and giving away sketches with estimates two years ago. My business is better for it and I am spared the pain of working for free, only to see a poorly rendered version of MY idea done by someone else. If they are serious, they give you a deposit. Most customers have been quite understanding about this. Deposits really help you weed out the tire-kickers. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Generally, I give an estimate and get the clients go-ahead before doing any sketch work. I explain that I will be more than happy to provide a proof as a part of the job itself and work with them to the final result. Most people understand this. I say "generally" because I do make exceptions for established customers. But I'm not working for free to save the next guy design time.
-------------------- Patrick Wedel North Country Signs Barron, Wisconsin Posts: 72 | From: Barron, WI | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
WE DO charge a sketch fee, and we DO explain why, but it still amazes us that there are other shops in this area do it for free! When we say we charge for this to a customer, sometimes they say, "well, Soandso Signs did THIS sketch for me...how much would you charge to do this job?" They STILL don't get it when I say I don't want to see their sketch from somebody else! And it doesn't help that Soandso Signs will let the customer sit behind them and design it on the screen and then print them out a copy! The customer looks at us like we are "shisters" because we won't accomodate their sketch request so they can take OUR sketch around and price shop like Soandso does! AARRGGHH!!! WE DO have customers that respect us and value what we do and pay the fee if need be, but these price shoppers are really irritating!!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
WOW! Just had the same conversation with my better half over lunch.... this is one area where we loose money all the time... try getting an advertising company doing this for free... d-uh... I bet they won't look at any job for less than $500.00.
I'm trying to get at least a little money for a sketch, hey even it's $50. I bet the customer won't be totally put off, and the chances that they will be back to get it done.. Everybody wins.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
What percent of your shops work is paint compared to vinyl? The reason I ask this question is because i've found that painted work done well and different seperates from work done in vinyl where just about anyone can copy it. My friend Jeff sold the vinyl end of his business so he can concentrate on the money end which is painted signage, artwork and striping. He also let his family who were working in the shop go on their seperate ways because they were on the vinyl end.
Some may use the term sign folks when it comes to making signs but most know this business as the sign industry since the influx of computer generated signage. I'm not putting anyone down but just trying to preserve our craft and the sign folks who still use paint and a pencil to further their gradification and supply real customers with something vinyl can't do.
What I've found in all my years of working are persons who want it different and want it in paint aren't the lookyloos of those who can go anywhere just to get what they want. I'm not gonna fight here because we all know what I'm talking about. There are more persons arguing prices over vinyl, more problems concerning the quality of vinyl and more work out there then one can do with the right arsonal.
It you read this correctly you'll find this is right on the same topic as posted.
have a nice day
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
I always make 1 sketch rather than 2 or 3 mainly because to many people get involved in decisions of which one do you like best,you know their wife or people who know nothing about advertising.To many sketches does nothing but stall production time.Make 1 sketch and when they say "can I take this with me...your answer is...this is the only one I have and I've spent so much time designing it that I'm afraid I can't remember how it looked.If the are serious usually they'll say just go ahead with it...I know you'll make it look good.
-------------------- Bill Wood Bill Wood, Sign Artist 3628 Ogburn Ave., NE Winston-Salem, NC 27105-3752 336-682-5820 Posts: 397 | From: Winston-Salem, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Dear customer. We are not a respected professional in our field?
Do we not have proper facilities where we design and fabricate your custom made visual marketing piece
Have we not made the commitment to be the best in our busniess do a good job starting with our very first conversation?
Are we not booked with additional customers because of our good will within the community?
Are we not available with personal attention whenever you call?
Do we not attend continuing educational classes that improve our skills that in turn give you a better product??
Is it not true that the most time consumming and stressful part of doing your marketing piece is in visualizing the preliminary schetches, drawing them and getting approval.. all while developing you a custom piece that does your business justice?
The why would you wish me to spend several hours doing what I do best on speculation with the mere hope of getting your approval which may or may not be granted?
When my other customers allow me the pleasure of knowing that we will work together with, and communicate with each other all at the same time giving me a deposit so that I can guarantee them my full attention and proper time commitment.
I'm sorry there was a misunderstanding. But requesting a deposit is standard practice within almost all professional enterprises including the design and fabrication of a custom made visual marketing medium.
Thank you. Warmly yours Blah Blah....
Ignore the not so subtle accuastion that you are ripping them off. Even though you want to go over and pound them into a bloody pile.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
My answer to you, Joey, is that I have very few problems when it comes to hand painting and striping. The respect is there. Unfortunately we do more vinyl than paint. Many sign people in our area will use us as a bench mark. They secretly call, pretending to be a potential customer, to find out how to do a job or what does it cost.
I like what Steve said abouy having a plumber "try out" for the job. I like that term "try out." It makes me feel like a 7th grader "trying out" for the basketball team. After 2 weeks of practices from hell they'd post a sheet on the bulletin board with all the guys who made the team. I still remember looking over and around people to see if I made it. What a feeling.
A customer said to me when I informed him about the sketch fee -- "What if I don't like what you came up with? Do I get my money back."
It makes you crazy!!!!
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
It's just not all that complicated. For ANYTHING that takes time and work, a fee is in order. Designing a sign is time and work. No one should be expected to give that for free.
The customer that thinks that is being unreasonable. And I personally, have no problems cutting an unreasonable customer loose, to make way for the ones that pay.
It's unfortunate that there are those who don't see it this way, but maybe they have time to waste or not enough work to do.
People who think that creating sketches are a good investment in order to get the job are mistaken. They don't seem to understand that they are doing the work for free, without even having the commitment of a bonefide job.
Why?
Why some sign people don't place more importance on the sketch is beyond me. The design/layout is the most important part of any good sign. ~nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
I think the problem lies within the artist and perfectionist in us all wanting to generate the finished layout right off the bat and estimate the price from that, instead of learning how to draw a quick concept, and sell the job based on that concept (and customer confidence in us) at the true market value.
While a developer won't draw up plans for a house on speculation (this parallel always comes up in this topic) he just might whip out a quick concept of the front elevation on a bar/restaurant napkin to gain a client's interest and trust, then charge for detailed renderings and developing a set of plans if the client wants to proceed further than that 2 minute sketch.
Everyone knows how much the houses are. The prices are advertised everywhere so everyone has a good idea of budget going in to it. Signs don't wear their price tags so that's where a photo portfolio of recent jobs with prices right there that the potential customer can see will come in handy. The book qualifies them, helps them determine what type of sign they want for their budget, and at that point a quick concept to make sure you're both on the same page should be all it takes to sell it.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Thats exactly what I mean Bill, exactly. The difference is uncanny.
Unfortunately some shops refuse to take the same chance my friend Jeff has taken as his love for his work is what most came for to begin with. His vinyl end took up space as well as brought price shoppers and I guess he just worked with me too long to continue to put up with depending on other companies to determine the length on how long a sign would last among other problems.
Thus the difference between sign folks and the sign industry.
Imagination and design, its what you do with it that counts
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
We just sold a logo design to a construction group that came in after going to sign-a-digny. They wondered why sign-a-dingy didn't charge for their concept logo sketch. ( It was generic, early 90's same-o same-o.
After they seen the difference in our design, they not only bought the logo, two truck letterings and a trailer lettering are scheduled and we are going to build their web site.
Because we decided to get more into design work, we are developing a brochure that explains the process and the cost.
There will also be a menu printed out and hung on the wall that explains the logo creation process and prices.
Where we got into trouble was billing for a logo. Different client came in, ordered the work, we showed them the design, they liked it, saved files to disk, billed them and haven't seen or heard from them since.
posted
Bill; I, after 48 years of satisfying established merchants and new arrivals in my territory, can only suggest what has worked for me over the years. If they don't have an art department that can send a file, the responce on our part has been that our shop rate is.....per hour, and how much time do you want us to put into creating your identity and image? once that is established, the fee will be paid up front, thank you sir, and the time for presentation will then be established. Rarely, (from a time before 911) have I had the need to rely on my fencing and or hopkido skills by going nose to nose with hostile opposition.
posted
We know we have lost a few clients because we charge a design deposit (usually $500) up front. Some to members of this very board. But the amount of lost sales is minuscule compared to the amount of time, and therefore money, we would lose by providing free design drawings or sketches.
We feel that well designed signs are what we sell. We frankly tell potential clients that although we feel our signs are very well made, using only the best materials we can get, that is not what separates us from other shops that may also make fine products.
The value in using our firm is that the design is simply more attractive and more effective.
We advise all fence sitters to go to our website and view our portfolio; talk to clients who have used us; look at our design awards until they are comfortable that we are the right company for them.
If we are, for a non-refundable deposit of $500, we will start to work for them. If we are not, it's better for both of us that we know that now.
[ February 04, 2007, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Paul Luszcz ]
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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