posted
I can't answer this with any authority, but my sense is that the impetus for regulation and licensing comes from the perception of a public hazard or nuisance. Thus you have strict regulation, mostly, on large sign structures such as billboards and highway signs, and on electric signs, which if installed incorrectly can hurt someone. Its a lot tougher to decide who is harmed (other than the customer) by a sign that is merely ugly or unreadable.
Don't think this is a new phenomenon. Professional sign painters have ALWAYS been plagued by amateurs and so-called "artists" who undercut the market, and these hacks have always had a market among the sort of businessmen who value cheap over good. In the past twenty years we've become accustomed to blaming this on the proliferation of technology, but all computers have done is make ugly signs easier and cheaper to make. In past decades the unions took on the formal training of sign painters, but this has mostly disappeared as far as I know.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
In Alberta there is a Graphice Sign course offered at NAIT, I think that is what they call it .. it has been a few years since I was there and it was Commercial Sign writting then. This is a one year enrollment with a certification at completion. I have also seen in this course ppl going through in a modified appentiship program. I know this is not a journyman program but it is avalibe and does standardize at least the jump off point for signage and design.
posted
When I started in this biz 40 years ago...there was a very strong sign painter's union here in Southern California. In those days, most sign guys did 'side jobs' on weekends for extra money.
I was about to join, when the union, in it's greed to get more members, decreed "NO SATURDAY OR SUNDAY WORK". I guess they figured that way, the sign shops would have to hire more people.
The result was that everyone immediately quit the union. The result was that the union bosses had to get real jobs since no one was paying their $30/month dues!
[ January 26, 2007, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Union membership and participation was strong in many cities. The Letterhead movement was the result of a group of enthusiastic union school apprentices getting together after hours to further explore the craft they were committed to. Many of my friends are still paying union dues, but the qualifications are more relaxed today.When I was an apprentice and grumbled about any of the chores put upon me, I'd get one of these old guys telling me about some aspect of their apprenticeship before paints came mixed in cans and when wagons that came in to be lettered required the apprentice to tend the horses. There was always one night a week for classes as well as the training working in the shop. There was also training about ethics and honoring those that taught you.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6734 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Looks like everyone is on the same page with this. It was very much a part of the Union Movement.
I Googled it:
A journeyman is a tradesman or craftsman who has completed an apprenticeship but is not yet able to set up his or her own workshop as a master. In parts of Europe, as in later medieval Germany, spending time as a journeyman (Geselle), moving from one town to another to gain experience of different workshops, was an important part of the training of an aspirant master. In later medieval England, however, most journeymen remained as employees throughout their careers, lacking the financial resources to set up their own workshops.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
This is a trade where many either learned "on the job" from a signpainter who started in much the same way, or was "self-taught". Without any formal credentials, the teachers weren't really acredited by any "institution" to grant any form of certification, and therein lies the root for the lack of journeyman status.
As late as the 60's in Ontario, ( Pre George Brown College ), the only place where one could study signpainting, was in Kingston Penitentiary. When a shop hired a new guy who'd obviously had some training, but had no past resume, you just knew where he came from. The first few days were usually fraught with caution, since one never knew if you were working with a former axe murderer, or possibly a bank robber, or some other type of reformed felon.
I personally knew one of those Kingston "graduates", and he did turn out some rather nice work. He once told me that another trade that was taught in Kingston, was locksmithing. One of the initial things taught as part of their locksmithing course, was how to pick a lock. I thought this was a fine thing to teach to prople who were supposed to be locked up.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
My Father paid union dues his whole career. He was a Master and finally got paid up dues when he turned 75. We opted to not continue the union when I incorporated with him, as by then it was practically defunct anyway.
-------------------- Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud 10 year Supporter of the Letterheads Website www.artssigns.com "MrBill-" on the chat page MailTo:biggsbb@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
At the risk of sounding like a braggard, which I do not intend....
My first vocation was as a schoolteacher. I still have the accreditation..I put in 2 years obtaining it. It is considered by most as a "profession"
My second vocation was auto body repair..I did a 3 year "apprentiship" and obtained my journeyman status.
Finally, I "stumbled" into the signmaking business. It is a lucrative business. It is not a "professional" business and it is not a business where one has to be "licenced" like a school teacher or a bodyman. The business does not put people at risk from poor teaching or from poor frame straightening.
Other than the previously mentioned fact of a sign falling down and hitting someone on the head there is no real risk involved.
Unions have been mentioned..THEY have nothing to do with accreditation or qualification..unions are nothing more than bloodsucking companies who protect those who can't protect themselves by doing competent work.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
There were and still are many good journeymen and women around. And yes we were credentialed. I have had the priveledge of teaching a class Illinois Central College, for sign painters. I have taken many classes myself from the west coast to the midwest. That journeyman card made me a lot of money. The craftsman level was also where a student of the "TRADE" became familiar with the term... professional. That was way before the computer had anything to do with signs. I do not denigrate those who only know the way of the computer, plotter or printer but I will say that I am glad that I made more money on a percentage basis with paint than any one could with electronics. I could work outside in the daylight without the need for electricity. Put your workspace outside today and see how long the equipment would last.
CrazyJack Just a professional opinion !
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
In the UK, New Zealand and Australia, there is still a 3 year apprenticeship before one is certified as a signwriter. This would be a perfect time for these Letterheads to tell us how it all works.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
My guess is that 2 trends have geen going on:
Union membership in general has gone down and down in the US since the end of WWII. One factor, as Dave said, is "..unions are nothing more than bloodsucking companies who protect those who can't protect themselves by doing competent work." Also, there have been more job opportunities that pay well, with good working conditions, and so unions were less-needed to protect jobs. Irony is that humane working conditions (e.g.40-hour week) are largely due to the union movements of 100 years ago. Many of their demands are now law. Maybe they've worked themselves out of a job.
2. If that's the trend, then it cannot keep up with the technology of sign-making and train people for certification. Somebody would better start from scratch ... in the US, that is. I'd like to hear more about Australia & NZ. I worked with an Aussie graduate who had opened his own shop in Maryland, and he is VERY competent.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
In Australia the method was (and I think still is), that you serve a four year apprenticeship AKA indentures to a person or business. During the apprenticehip you attend college at which you complete practical and theoretical training and exams certifying that along with your on the job experience you have the requisite knowledge to call yourself a signwriter. From what I can gather now owing to the governing body being driven by the major players in the industry, the currriculum is mainly aimed at Workplace Health and Safety and vinyl application. I would be very gratified to find out that it were otherwise if any lurkers can correct me, I'm sure there are still apprentices that get into the industry for the reasons many of us here did originally.
-------------------- David Fisher D.A. & P.M. Fisher Services Brisbane Australia da_pmf@yahoo.com Trying out a new tag: "Parents are the bones on which children cut their teeth Peter Ustinov Posts: 1450 | From: Brisbane Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
"A journeyman is a tradesman or craftsman who has completed an apprenticeship but is not yet able to set up his or her own workshop as a master."
Perhsps we will hear from more folks who know of current Journeyman programs.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well said Joe, and a master does not wear it on the sleeve. Most of the time a artist does not become a master until they have passed on. Or the master was they who had to have things there way, as in "It's my Design Idea".
P.S. Who can tell me,...What is a "HogLeg" or a "Falls" or a "Scab" ? What can you "Punch out"?
Jack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud 10 year Supporter of the Letterheads Website www.artssigns.com "MrBill-" on the chat page MailTo:biggsbb@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
In Europe, the apprenticeship system is still strong, and not at all a thing of the medieval past. In Switzerland there are probably over 300 different apprenticeship programs to choose from. The effect of the system is that you will find professionals in every business you are dealing with. There it is not like Cam said, that the trade has always been plaqued by amateurs. Where there is a strong apprenticeship system, people without the education simply don't think along the lines of "Hey, maybe I should open up a sign shop".
I am a sign painter; I have completed a three and a half year apprenticeship. In Swizerland, your profession is more like what you are, rather than what you just happen to be doing. For your education, you work full time in a business, and go to school one day a week. Final tests need to be completed in order to get your certificate. No cost for the school. Small wages that are increasing with each year. Its a win win situation for everybody.
However, I can guarantee you, that no business will train its apprentices to become sign shop owners. Who wants to raise its own competition?You are trained as an employee, which means that you're not very likely to have much to do with the pricing and planning of projects. Even design is not a big part of the program. The emphasis is on skillful and effective production. If someone goes into opening up his own business, it isn't until having worked his way up in an existing business and having been involved in all aspects of it.
In my case, I ended up with the worst years to become a sign painter('79-'82). They had kicked hand lettering from the program, and not added computerized sign making yet. I ended up being trained more like a screen printer, and consequently struggle with learning many skills just as much as someone with no certificate at all.
Once I thought, I knew it all, and now I find out that I don't know anything. Oh man, this is just like parenting...
posted
A HogLeg, is any Flat lettering brush 1 inch or better in size. Probably a langnickle "Grey Flash" or... A falls is what you stand on when you would have been Lettering a wall at 3 stories high or higher, also called a swing stage. A scab, was a additional cut out form of art that would be attached to a billboard. "Punch out" is a term that was used in the real sign business when a job had to be done quick. BTW the only trash was some masking tape, empty cans, used thinners and maybe some sandwich wrappers. Would you look at how much non-recyclable trash there is in the sign making world today?
Jack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
David is right, in NSW we have a four year apprenticeship. The apprentice goes to what we call Tech. (Technical College) for one day a week for the first three years. The other four days of his working week are spent working with the tradesmen. The currriculum has changed a lot since I attended, there is a lot less emphasis on the traditional skills. As "Keepers of the Craft", it seems like it will be our role to make sure that the Traditional skills are passed on.
I have been going through Dad's papers and found this description of a Signwriter, I'm not sure where it's from, as the paper does not have a headng. 2.9 “Signwriter’ shall mean an employee who is in addition to having a knowledge of paintmg, staining and varnishing does any of the following work: Signwriting, designing and/or lettering of price tickets and showcards. Pictorial and scenic paintings, or production of signs or posters by means of stencils, screens or like methods or any other work incidental thereto including cutout displays of all descriptions, pictorial, scenic or lettering and without limiting the generality of the foregoing shall include - (a) lettering of every description, size or shape applied by brush on any surface or material which, without limiting its meaning shall include stone, wood, iron, metal, brick, cement, glass (plain or fancy), canvas, paper, calico, sheeting, bunting, silk, satin, wire blinds; (b) designing for windows, posters, show window and theatre displays, honour rolls, illuminated addresses, neon signs, stencils, display banners; (c) gilding, i.e., the application of gold, silver, aluminium, or any metal leaf to any surface; (d) designing and laying out of cutout displays of all descriptions, either pictorial, scenic or lettering; (e) screen process work, i.e., the designing, setting up and the operation for duplication of signs on any material whether of paper, fabric, metal, wood, glass or any similar material. Without limiting the general meaning signwriting work, shall include making of stencils and stencilling by screen or any other method, and the making and/or fixing of transfers.
-------------------- Paul Jordan Jordan Signs http://jordansigns.com.au paul@jordansigns.com.au Australia "We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing" George Bernard Shaw, I think. Posts: 166 | From: Caringbah, N.S.W., Australia | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ivan...what the heck are you talking about?
That there are no "journeymen" in Canada? or the trade overall?
I served a 5 year apprenticeship in a union shop in Denver Colorado and have a certificate on the wall stating as much.I held a "journeymans" card with the union for years (I'm frantically looking for)adn I paid "Journeyman" dues.
So I disagree...this trade has had "journeymen" stature for a long long time.
Now the "masters" thing? I dunno...I own my own shop...does that automatically mean that because I was a "journeyman" I am now a "master" ...I think not... but hey who am I to argue with Webster.
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
Gee Monte, I think I am talking about a journeyman system that seems to have died out. That stopped producing journeymen! That stopped apprenticing apprentices!
This is something that you have trouble agreeing with?
What prompted my query, was the fact that I have never met a Journeyman signmaker face to face.
If the system is alive and well and still cranking out journeymen certificates in your corner of the world, then please, tell us all about it.
How many Journeymen have received their certificates after apprenticing under you in your shop?
THAT is what I am talking about...
[ January 29, 2007, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Ivan Allan ]
-------------------- Ivan Allan Eye Signs SK Canada
"One's first step in wisdom is to question everything" Posts: 102 | From: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sorry if I have offended you but I read your post at least 3 times (before I posted)and I just went back and read it twice more.
I see from your current comments that you left some info out of your first post... (a time line)...you are of course correct that there are very few opportunities left (today) to become a "registered journeyman" but in its "heyday" there were thousands of them (thus the reason I queried your comment (your quote)"I have often wondered why this industry did not get on the bandwagon and become a trade").
From what I've seen ...probably Eruope, Oz and maybe New Zealand Still offer Apprenticships that still include hand lettering.
Something else you left out of your original post..(now that I look at it still again) when you speak of trade were you in reference to the Computer sign trade? or the Sign trade in general?
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Right'o Monte, It seems the bloody bloke hasnt' the clue on either count.
CrazyJack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've been in the sign industry in Canada since 1972. I've never heard of a sign apprenticeship program in this country. I believe Ivan's question interesting and is harmless enough. If he questions the lack of a certification program, I find that valid. We've had a solid, thorough sign program at one of the colleges here in Edmonton. It has run since the '60's and has evolved over the years to be a state of the art program. I am a 1972 graduate. Now, I know there are countless folks out there that don't know this program even exists. I doubt I would be critical of someone ignorant of that fact. Again, as I see it, Ivan made a reasonable comment based on his knowledge of the situation. By soliciting information here, he helped us all understand a little better. I'd hate to see him or anyone else not come here for help for fear of "embarasing themselves". Someone has missed the point here.... maybe it's me.
posted
Yes, somebody missed the point, Duncan, but I don't think it was you.
It was an interesting question, Ivan, and it's a shame some responses were less than charitable. Still never mind - the nature of open discussion I suppose.
-------------------- Graham Parsons Signs 'n Such Ltd Swift Current Saskatchewan Canada. www.signsnsuch.com
"Saskatchewan - hard to pronounce, easy to draw" Posts: 710 | From: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've run into a few folks over the years that served apprenticeships in the sign indusrty and who held journeyman cards.
Myself, as a youngster, I spent a lot of time at the Jersey shore. One year I served as an apprentice baiter on a charter fishing boat, never did make journeyman and master wasn't even thought of.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
It comes down to this: There is nothing to stop a business owner from hiring an "amateur" instead of a professional to paint a sign, if the business owner thinks it will save a few bux. In most other trades, you cannot do this; plumbers, electricians, and carpenters are licensed, and their work is inspected for being competent and professional, according to specific standards. In other words, if you hire an amateur electrician to wire your building, the building inspector won't give you a CO. But if you hire some hack who uses all-upper-case Old English on an arc in red vynull with a black shade, the Building Inspector can't revoke your business licence and keep you from opening. When there are no legal standards for competent work, there are no barriers to incompetents, and professional qualifications are relatively meaningless.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ivan, I too have worked in a Union Sign Shop and was a member of the Painters Union. It was a closed shop so I had to join. Others in the shop were members of the sheet metal union. That said, this was not a Sign Maker certification in any way shape or form. I was a paying member of a union...nothing more. Being a member of a union doesn't necessarily mean your a journeyman anything.
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic