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PS ..."educate your competition" How will this help my business to survive, pray tell? I need some clarification, please. This one really makes no sense to me! The most I have ever done to educate a competitor is to call and warn them about a rip-off artist client. Seemed like the "moral" thing to do. Or do you mean to show them how much better your work looks than theirs? I think they already know that, but they don't care. If they did care, they would worry about design and charging a good price. And I don't think that every person who dives into the sign biz does it to scratch a creative itch. Many are hobbyists, and there are others who are too cheap to pay a reputable sign company to letter their vehicle. Still others see it as a "get rich" scheme...hahaha. My project for the day, after I finish outlining 2 signs for tomorrow, is to drive around town and take a few pix of my competitors' signs to post here. I also drew up a new layout for someone who price-shopped me in the summer and made their own sign, which looks like an abortion on a stick. I think I'll cold-call them tomorrow with the sketch. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Educating the competition is what others did for me. They taught me to value what I do, to have pride in my work, to use the correct substrates for applications, to work with quality materials. They taught me layout skills and use of colour right from not using all upper case script to not putting black drop shadows on red. Most important and beneficial to them they taught me not to undercharge and undermine the market.
Although I am not direct competition to you, you were one of those that helped me a great deal Jill. Thank you.
I'm trying to repay that by doing the same for others, helping out others that are new to the business. I have a pretty good relationship with some sign shops in my area, others I haven't crossed paths with yet. Those that are new I help as much with pricing as I can and I always give them the "undercharging hurts the sign business as a whole." I also explain the need for quality substrates if they are serious about being around for a while. I'm not a saint or self righteous, it is in my best interest to do this and I pay my dues and pass on what was so freely given to me. Isn't that what Letterheads is about?
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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quote:My project for the day, after I finish outlining 2 signs for tomorrow, is to drive around town and take a few pix of my competitors' signs to post here.
In Chemainus where we used to live, my good friend opened up an ice cream parlor next door to our business. Janis & I helped him staerrt it up. The signs were great, we redid the building, the interior was world class... everything perfect. He did a fabulous business too.... sold thousands of ice cream cones. While he sold ice cream, he did it in a way like no other. Even though he sold a common brand of ice cream he presented it in a way that made it look (and most said TASTE special too) it was really just common ice cream. Folks routinely drove a hundred miles or more for an ice cream cone from this special place.
Before long others in town saw his success and decided to go into the ice cream business. How hard could it be? Two or three ice cream stores started in town within a couple of blocks. They were quicky - sticky outfits... no class, bad signs, no uniforms, no interior decor...
My friend freaked out over the competition and instead of thinking of ways to improve his business and make it even more special he obsessed over what the fellows down the road were doing and what they WERE NOT doing. It consumed him over the next months.
Instead of staying in his store being nice to his customers and encouraging his staff to do the same he spent his time spying on his competition. His business wasn't affected by the other stores opening initially, but when he stopped minding his store it quickly lost much of its specialness and personality.
A year later he couldn't handle it anymore and sold the once thriving business to another. He blamed the quicky sticky ice cream outfits in town for his demise.
I placed the blame elsewhere. Had my friend concentrated on his own business he would have had nothing to fear. He marketed and sold something that no one else could compete with. When he started thinking about ordinary ice cream he lost focus on the special product he sold.
My friend is now back working for the phone company once more... a job he was very anxious to leave when he started the ice cream business.
In our tiny town of Yarrow (population 1100) there are FOUR sign shops. Chilliwack has TWENTY SEVEN sign shops listed in the yellow pages.... I KNOW there are many more shops in town than that.
NONE of that matters to me. I only concern myself with what goes on inside my shop. How can I improve the things I do. How can I make my product even more special and different from everyone else.
Each project we install will draw people who want something different to us.... for none of my competition can do what I do. If they choose to copy what I do that's OK for by the time they learn what they want I will be MILES futher down the road of learning.
Going back to the first quoted paragraph above...
I've often wondered about the lack of success Jill experiences. She is one of the MOST talented designers and painters I know. I know it to be true for I've seen her in action at meets. She has a wonderful color sense and awesome brush skills. Some how we just have to figure out a way to market this ability and rachet it up to the next level in the market place.
I would encourage Jill (and others reading) to instead use the time to do something positive and long term for herself. Do something which takes you towards the long term goals in YOUR business. Use the time to learn a skill or develop a product which makes you DIFFERENT from your competitors.
Without knowing your business and seeing how you operate I do not know specific answers nor can I make specific suggestions. I do know what works for us however and suspect that solutions for anyone who is struggling are not that different.
If something is not working for a long time you have to make some changes. What the competition is doing is not important... what YOU do is.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8740 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Jill, maybe you could use the time to whip your son into action cleaning up the first impression of your home/office...
& while he's doing that, you could be designing some additional signage for that first impression... as well as some landscaping or subtle exterior decorative embellishments to add further asthetic improvements to your clients first impression...
...offer to pay your son for the landscaping etc, while explaining that the money isn't coming out of thin air... it is being manifested through your intentions when you are proactive about presenting your already professional company one small notch higher then last week.
Ever watch that house-flipping show "curb appeal"? You could probably put a weekend of sweat into simply rearranging clutter and as little as $200 into some accents, or repairs.
I'll bet you will see results in your own self image. I'll also bet that an actual increase in paying customers, or the prices they pay will follow.
I'm a firm believer that failed businesses are only caused by the people running them.
This IS interesting!
Mike: Business failure is most generally caused by failed owners....BUT, I know a person who is currently going down the perverbial tubes because of many events she had NO control over. For example: she had two clients file bankruptsy within a short time. That plus other things started her on a downward spiral that has yet to conclude.
Will she survive? Don't know, remains to be seen. Was it her fault? NO. I don't know. But, her story is repeated countless times every year in the USA.
Maybe you have some secret that several thousand failed business owners need to hear. Instead of becoming a nutritionist, perhaps you should be sharing your glowing success in a New York Times best seller. I just think it's wrong to blanketly blame business owners for every failure.
Please don't take this wrong Mike, but your comment seems a bit insensitive. Unless I am misreading you. If so, I apologize.
I am really enjoying this thread, and I feel I will personally benefit from reading the posts.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3492 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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Rick, I think Mike makes a valid point, & yet I also agree that it is a bit of a blanket statement. I would usually consider any blanket statement to be a quick easy way to imply a generality... and not a belief on the part of any intelligent writer that there is ever a generalization that fits for EVERY incident.
Even with your friends as an exception, it may still be a valid consideration that they could have been better prepared for unexpected bad luck.
I was advised a few years ago to secure some lines of credit for unexpected financial need. I now have the means to get $75K tomorrow if I need it. No application required... that parts done already... no cost to me today, as the balance is zero... but the available funds are available immediately, for ANY purpose, as there is no further involvement by the bank... the money already has my name on it.
And along the lines of Russ' comment... maybe they over-extended credit if just 2 clients default on payments could ruin their business. That is just a guess of course... I realize that a business selling higher dollar items, with a lower profit margin could create a lot of risk even with a 50% balance owed... & I imagine some business' can not operate without levels of finalcial risk beyond what I would accept... but even that "fact" (if it is one) would make such a risky business unwise to those who can not afford the risk.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3492 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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"Simple" 1 time banners were a part of our business. I don't care to compete with their - "we'll sell a million for a couple percent over cost" mentality.
The new technology has definitely affected the knock-out stuff.
Hey... we'll make money, but putting up with the "shoppers" armed with the fleet store prices, looking for 1 or 2 word, 1 time use banners & such, is a pain & I miss the "butter".
-------------------- Michael R. Bendel Bendel Sign Co,. Inc. Sauk Rapids, MN Posts: 913 | From: Sauk Rapids, MN | Registered: Jul 2005
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I think you are concentrating on exceptions rather than rules Rick. Just because there are exceptions doesn't mean generalizations can't be made.
In my case I could have blamed the market. There was a serious downturn in the illustration market just about the time I got started as a full time illustrator. Stock illustration was becoming popular with art directors and new commission were harder to come by. None of that was my fault. I was producing better work all the time, but had a hard time staying busy. Lots of illustrators got squeezed out of the market at that time. I'm pretty sure none of them meant to fail.
But, not all of them failed. There were some who handled those bad times. They were the more flexible ones. They did whatever it took to succeed. They took part times jobs, did portraits on the side, and found ways of getting their work into art galleries. They even submitted their work to stock agencies so they could resell rights to work they had already done. I'm ashamed to say I did none of these things. Yes, the market did stink, but there was work there, and I was unwilling to adapt at that time.
Someone shared a quote a months ago that really hits home with me: "Life is full of obstacle illusions". All too often I set obstacles before myself that are mostly imaginary. They do have some basis in fact, but not entirely. Who is at fault when I run into a tree because I refuse to get out of its way?
So often I get discouraged with my lack of progress and I start to blame my circumstances, and then I see someone else in the same circumstances, doing what I want to do!
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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I don't allow myself to play the blame game because in my mind that's just giving your power away to someone else. I just can not accept that for myself.
In the situation of the person you mentioned I tend to look at it like I DID have control over it. If you allow your business to make a majority of its income from one or two customers, even if it's just a temporary timeframe during the project itself, you're running a very risk proposition. That sounds like a case of putting all the effort into two very well-paying yet very risky jobs and not making sure there's a backup plan with other smaller jobs that have more immediate payoff to keep cashflow moving. I know the situation well because I've done the same and learned my lesson the hard way, but in my case it was taking on ongoing projects in a completely different field (engineering) which took away from the time I could invest into building my own business. Either way it doesn't matter because my little small-time business is still going and growing while that billion dollar engineering firm was bankrupted a couple years ago.
And to think had I not left them to move to Arizona in the first place, I still would have had to start from scratch with another job or my own business. I got a 5 year jumpstart on them.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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You guys make valid arguments. I can't stand the "victim" syndrome either.
I too am experiencing a downturn with my own circumstances. Others around me tell me "you can't help it, Michigan has the highest unemployment rate in the USA". Yes, even worse than Alaska. But, I too am attempting to reshape or redirect my attention to be in survival mode.
It gets discouraging when you work your hiney off on a quote, (photo shoots, committee meetings, etc), only to lose a $8000 job for a $50 difference,(not a sealed bid process) I charged and recieved a design fee, but, as you know when they are willing to pay for design, you often put in more than you are compensated for.
Sorry Bruce, I didn't mean to hijack your post
[ December 11, 2006, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3492 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Two years ago I lost my main client, a glass plant, due to a flood. They folded owing me $600, which is a LOT of money to me.
I never really bounced back from that, and last year was my worst ever. As you know, I was forced to get a real job or lose everything.
This year has been better for me. The foreman of the glass plant that closed has moved to a new glass plant. I get about $300 a month in signs from them (60 day net...ugh) but that pays my truck payment. Last month I paid off my house!
I still have a hand-to-mouth existance, always have. I wish it could be better. Maybe someday it will.
I don't want to educate my competitors tho. Let them keep on making crappy signs. Nobody educated me whan I was starting out. And I'm not dissing the Letterhead spirit here either. I'm talking local. I have tried to tell my competitors about the Letterheads but they look at me like I have a third eye. So I just have an online fellowship. That's good enough for me.
I might try the curb appeal thing come spring. We are in the midst of a forced public sewage installation here, and everything is torn up everywhere. It's just too cold out right now anyway!
Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Yep. Just had a so called competitor get a lettering job away from me (Patrol car). Their bid was $200.00 less, and to add insult to injury, they stole my design. I rarely do vehicles anymore.
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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I have to echo Grampa Dan's comments here. We have no control over the decisions and business practices of our competitors. We DO, however, have complete control of our OWN business practices, and those are what control our destinies - not what other people do.
An example: I live in coastal Connecticut. I'm surrounded by marinas, boatbuilders, boat owners galore - yet I letter perhaps a half-dozen boats a year. Why so few? Because the vast majority of boat owners purchase vinyl lettering from other shops, or online, for less than what I will charge; because marinas have purchased their own plotters, etc. to service their customers in-house.
There are two ways I could respond to that. I could try to gain a greater market share by lowering my prices; by being "competitive" with all the semi-skilled vinyl jockeys; by constantly fretting over what so-and-so charges. None of the energy spent on this would do a damn thing for my sanity or my bottom line; I'd just be doing more work for less money, all while knowing that somebody would STILL be charging less.
OR... I could consciously decide to change my focus. I still offer boat lettering, but my boats are ONLY hand-lettered and hand-designed on site, according to what looks right on the boat. Customers get a very limited say in this process; by which I mean they don't pick from a list of fonts, etc. Not that this matters, because the people who come to me look to ME as the professional who will make their boat lettering look like it should. They also come to me knowing that I'm going to charge three or four times as much as they'd pay for "vynull to go" and at least double what most shops will charge to come out and install vinyl.
I have no interest in the boat owners who shop for the lowest price, or can't be bothered to know the difference. Most of my boat customers own older classic boats, and they have a different mindset about how things look and how they should be done. They tend to have a greater respect for the skill and professionalism I offer, and they place a value on that.
Now, obviously I don't make a living on six boats a year, but can you see where I'm going here? By applying the same basic attitude to the rest of my business, I end up doing less work for more money, plus, the majority of my customers are FAR more pleasant and respectful than those who approach a sign shop with the goal of getting the lowest price on the most basic kind of work.
And while I'm at it... I have been thinking about what Jill says about her work, her customers, and her situation. Then I think of another female letterhead (she'd be embarrassed if I used her name; some of you will figure it out, BTW she does not post here) who has built up a terrific business entirely with vehicles; she is booked months in advance, owns and keeps her shop in great condition, charges a premium and earns a very good living. She's not necessarily more talented or smarter than Jill, but she's obviously better at something , no? This isn't trying to pick on Jill or tell her how to live or how to do business, but it is a fair observation, and one that can be considered.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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But Cam! I'm no Karen Sousa! (she is my idol, by the way, always has been since I met her at my first meet in 1994) She has more talent in her little gloved pinkie than I do in my whole body.
My daughter told me today that someone at her boyfriend's workplace asked him about me, saying I seemed "tempermental" when approached for a sign. Perhaps I am. But not anymore. Like I said earlier, I will give the customer what they want till they choke on it! With a smile on my face. (the man who said I was tempermental probably wanted me to letter his truck doors for $50)
Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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what is right what is wrong Everyones situation is different, some people may have assetts paid for no kids to look out for less debt and can bid higher for jobs and not worry if they get it or not. Others who may need certain jobs to keep going pay loans off etc, so they match competitors prices to keep going and maybe that job can turn into better things down the track. Then there are other vinyl guys who do work really cheap and crap but you do not match there prices.
I agree you should look out for your own business, If your worried about what your competitors are doing you have lost.
-------------------- Mark Stokes Mark Stokes Signs Mount Barker South Australia Posts: 388 | From: Mount Barker | Registered: Jan 2005
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No, Jill, you aren't. But her sucess isn't all about talent or any other intangible or mysterious ability.
When I began in this business I looked at SignCraft and other sources, saw people doing the kind of stuff I wanted to do, and emulated them. I don't just mean in their designs or techniques, but how did they present themselves? How did they deal with obnoxious would-be clients? What was their attitude about pricing? About deposits and getting paid? About attracting the top five percent customers and doing showpiece projects?
How did I learn those things? I asked! And when something they said sounded wrong or just inconceivable, I didn't insist what they were doing "wouldn't work in my area" or "my customers don't want anything nice" or "I ca'nt do that" - I asked for explanations, for examples, for advice in specific situations.
And something else. Not once did I hear ANY of those people I looked up to complain about their competition, or their cheap customers, or the economy, or any of the other lame excuses that are the bane of this trade. What I learned was that success was about hard work and patience, about taking every opportunity to learn something new, about setting policies regarding deposits and final payment, about showing potential customers your best work, and then doing something better.
I'll bet you $100 right now that Karen Sousa doesn't have anybody bad-mouthing her because she won't letter a truck for $50. No one would ever look at her work, or her shop, or her customers, and ever think of asking her. Anyone who did, and complained about it, would be laughed right out of the truck stop. And Karen works for a tough crowd not known for being bashful, or especially respectful of women. So maybe, Jill, what you might need to ask yourself, is why after all these years does someone think YOU would letter a truck for $50?
Again, I'm not trying to pick on Jill in particular. But her experiences are way too common to the trade to not start asking hard questions about who we are and what we are doing wrong. And maybe - just maybe - quit the endless bellyaching, and start listening to people like Karen Sousa or Grampa Dan who obviously do something right.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Jill Marie Welsh: My daughter told me today that someone at her boyfriend's workplace asked him about me, saying I seemed "tempermental" when approached for a sign. Perhaps I am. But not anymore. Like I said earlier, I will give the customer what they want till they choke on it! With a smile on my face. (the man who said I was tempermental probably wanted me to letter his truck doors for $50)
This is exactly the kind of information I had been wondering about. The fact that it was recent and unsolicited makes it worth considering. Why did the man volunteer that information, and why did he feel that way? It's easy to dismiss it and assume he was the worst kind of customer, but what if he wasn't? Are you sending a vibe you aren't aware of? If people think you are difficult to work with, it could more than price that is driving them to seek other options. I'm not saying it is, but it could be.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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...I think it is the man who I had quoted a price of $175 each for 5 sets of truck doors. (I usually charge $195) His landscape company is right near my daughter's BFs workplace. When he called me to say that he was getting his doors done for $50 a truck, and expected me to match it, I laughed and said there was no way I could do that and feed my kids. I remember my initial meeting with this guy, I was excited about his colors and all, as I love a red truck as a substrate. He ended up getting dark metallic gold with a weird green outline that you can't even see on the trucks. I remember seeing him at the grocery store and telling him how bad they looked! hahahaha I guess I am tempermental. But he agreed. Too late tho, his money had been spent.
I think the problem is not really with competition....it's the customers. What was good old BOB BURNS' tagline? "The customer is your enemy...act like it!" It's hard not to. And I think some here confuse my seeming negativity with reality. But then it goes back to the competitor who bought a plotter knowing nothing of design, and the client who liked their lowball prices. There is a sign shop in a town close by, where the guy charges $750 for two truck doors, edge printed. But he is rather surly.
I remember reading an article about Karen years ago, where she said that she never put her phone number on her own vehicle. I found that to be quite impressive. My own sign had no phone number on it for a few years, through a few re-dos (I repaint my own sign about every 2 years) I did get more calls after adding it, but it was the old "How much for magnetics" ones. I prefer talking to the customer in person so I can show them my portfolio, etc.
I wish they trusted my skills as they obviously do Cam's and Karen's. Sometimes I get to show them, other times not. I am glad that I finally do have a website as an online portfolio, like Mark Z suggests. Even if it's not as great as Joe Diaz's work! It is still a tool until I can afford better.
So far this week I have shown two of the makeover sketches to to establishments. The resale shop lady was interested, come spring. It's really a funky little antique shop. When I see resale I think old clothes. She could have a thriving business if clients knew what neat stuff she's selling, and I told her that. She had a store in Mars and she remembers my meet...so we'll see. The bakery guy was totally unaccepting. The Steel Magnolias lady is apparently never around.
My dad's quote to me was "if you're going to do something, do it right, or don't do it at all" I have always tried to emulate that. The last thing he ever told me was "Stick with signs. Some day you'll make $50K a year" (that was a lot to us) I keep sticking to them, hoping he was right. This is my 21st year in signs.
Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Jill is a lovely bright, little sparkler, if she's struggling I can't believe it has anything to do with negativity. Thankfully she's a realist and recognizes there isn't always a magic answer. But it won't stop her fighting.
-------------------- Arthur Vanson Bucks Signs Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England arthur@buckssigns.co.uk -------------------- Posts: 805 | From: Chesham, Bucks, England | Registered: Mar 2002
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"My own sign had no phone number on it for a few years, through a few re-dos (I repaint my own sign about every 2 years) I did get more calls after adding it, but it was the old "How much for magnetics" ones."
Jill -now you know why Karen (and many others) do not put their phone numbers on vehicles.
I'm not sure what a "realist" is in relation to this discussion. In the past I had always thought that a realist was someone who saw things as they actually were. With that definition in mind, I see Dan, Cam, and others as realist.
There is no way in the world that I would ever hurt Jill's feelings (or anyone else for that matter) but it just seems impractical to blame others for some lack of progress in our own lives. You may not care for Dr. Phil, but he does have one saying that I find very practical-when someone keeps doing the wrong thing over and over he asks "How is that working for you?".
For my birthday a great friend of mine gave me a book - "Everyday Greatness" by Stephen Covey. Actually, it is a collection of positive quotes and stories that have appeared in Reader's Digest and Covey wrote the introduction and some comments on each chapter. It has tremendous examples of how ordinary people overcame huge obstacles to achieve goals.
"I think the problem is not really with competition....it's the customers."
"There is a sign shop in a town close by, where the guy charges $750 for two truck doors, edge printed. But he is rather surly."
Jill - if it is the customer's fault, how does the surly guy get away with charging so much more? Your designs are very good and you seem to have that sparkling personality that Arthur mentioned, so go get'em girl. By the way, I totally disagree with Bob Burns - customers are my best friends...they feed me.
I doubt that this thread or any of the others that have gone before will change the minds of a lot of people, but we cannot continue to blame others for the condition in which we find ourselves.
I've heard that folks being trained by the FBI for spotting counterfeit paper money are never shown a fake bill. They study the real thing until they know it backwards and forewards and then the fake is easily spotted. An application here seems that we should take the successful folks we know and study them instead of concentrating on the negative.
End of sermon. More MDO to coat out.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Not to take odds, Raymond, but I'm just enough of a realist to recognize that running a business often requires more than a positive attitude.
If you enjoy the work in and of itself and have developed a solid customer base, keeping upbeat is easy when the cash flow is steady. The real test of your character is usually when the wallet gets thinned down.
My market here is very similar to Jill's...rural, not a lot of big money and more than it's fair share of people looking at price before quality. Despite the small market locally, there are 8 people producing signage here....far more than fit the need. Many do it as a source of "extra income" and for a lot less than I do. Not an uncommon situation these days for a lot of small towns.
It's been said..."I don't want to do all the signs in town, just the good ones." Realistically, that may not be an effective approach as far as a business aspect is concerned. If the good ones are few and far between, you're gonna have a lot of free time on your hands, and that's not gonna pay the bills. You can make money on average looking signage as long as it's profitable. Sure, it may be a drag to do, but you're not gonna starve for having done it.
I strove for years to keep the customers happy thinking that it was all it took to run a business. I also felt that the busier I was, the more I was money making.
Reality... In the last 3 weeks, I've turned down 5 jobs because the work wasn't profitable. That doesn't mean I'm not an upbeat person or not optimistic, but realistic. When there's very little or no money to be made...why do it? For some, that can be a tough line to tow. We all have different personalities and circumstances and are going to handle them differently. What may be considered a "slow season" for some could mean closing the doors to others.
Maybe it should be changed to... "I don't want to be the most popular sign maker in town...just the most profitable." Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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It's been said..."I don't want to do all the signs in town, just the good ones."
I'm the one that said that Ray. And I don't think we are at odds with each other here.
I think you are confusing "good" with high priced. I do a lot of signs and I think that they are all "good", but a lot of them are very simple...maybe even plain...but still good.
You've turned down five signs - so how should that make you negative? We all have to make a decision on what is profitable and what is not.
"keeping upbeat is easy when the cash flow is steady. The real test of your character is usually when the wallet gets thinned down."
Yep, I'll agree. "If it were easy everyone would be doing it." I've been through a bankruptcy and my bank balance this morning is $78.12. Is that an excuse for me to blame everyone else and turn out junk?
Sure, running a business is more than a positive attitude...but try to run one without it and see where it gets you.
While I was writing this the phone rang and a customer ordered four 4' x 8' signs that I can finish before Monday, and he's sending me a check in advance. The bank account just went up.
I still hold to my statement that reality is what is happening at the moment and you can either see it as positive or negative.
Does anyone remember the "Gary Anderson Theory"?
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Nope....please refresh us! I'm curious, and it probably bears repeating. Love....Jill ($13 in savings, $6 in personal, and -$1 in the sign account with $450 due in eventually) You know what? Lots of times the expensive surly guy's customers come to me! Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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[ December 14, 2006, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8740 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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The Gary Anderson Theory was a SignCraft article by Mike Jackson that appeared some time ago. I was thinking that he had posted about it here, but my search found only this thread by Grandpa Dan. (the following is that post by Sawatzky)
Most of us are familiar with Mike Jackson's Signcraft article in which he so eloquently articulated the 'Gary Anderson" theory. I have read it many times and agree with it whole heartedly.
But there are still some folks who insist that it wouldn't work in their town, or that they live in a rural setting with no real town about them.
Wanting to stay in a particular area for personal reasons IS reasonable. And I understand it too. But if you are in a depressed or rural type area you have to get real creative in how you approach business. If you don't, its going to mean you earn little more than a subsistence living.
But there are a few things you have to do to make it in this type market. First off, 'normal', run of the mill work won't get you far. ANd chances are you will have some yokel down the street who will offer to do it for less than what is reasonable.
You have to think bigger... and better.
Why just do business within a 'reasonable driving distance'? Especially if the area you are in has a limited market for the high end work. If I were to do that I would leave a tremendous amount of money on the table.
Back when I had a 'normal' sign shop we offered ONLY design and sandblasted and dimensional signs. Quite simply, I turned down the plain old flat painted boards even though we did have a fair amount of call for them. I sent the folks who insisted on this style work down the road to my competition. I didn't WANT to do them and even more importantly didn't want to be known for that type work.
We did a good sign business too. And our work became known far and wide. I got requests from up to a thousand miles away for logo design and signage. And to my knowlege I never had to compete for the work either. It wasn't about price.
I also specialized in historical murals. I traveled many, many thousands of miles for that work and did over a 100 murals to date. This work also wasn't about price.
During this time we lived in Chemainus, Brtish Columbia, population 3,500. When we moved there it wasn't much of a town but we with the help of others there we created a tourist attraction which ultimately had over 400,000 visitors each year. Build it and they will come. We did it on a shoestring budget too. It was about hard work and sweat, not government handouts and grants or big business.
Since then we've moved to a much smaller town (Yarrow - population 1,100) and business continues to thrive. We've only done three jobs (design only)locally in the last four years with the exception of our own projects (Giggle Ridge and our own shop/studio). The primary purpose of our own projects (aside from the giggles they give us) is to be a showcase for our work... no sane client would ever go to these extremes. But I can't expect to sell this type work unless I show I personally believe in this type quality. I put my money where my mouth is.
It works beyond my wildest expectations and I have a ton of fun in the process. Best of all I get to live the dream.
If I wanted to do more 'normal' type sign work (and I do give it serious thought from time to time) I'd change my business considerably from what it is now. I'd still do outrageous work - only on a much smaller scale. Monumental signage is something I'd tackle. I'd go after the fancy gold and glass work. Very high end dimensional carved signage would be another type work I'd give a go. And dimensional plasma cut and welded sculptural signage would definitely be on the menu. Plus a few other things I haven't yet though of... none of it 'ordinary'.
I'd certainly be available for these types of work on a local basis, but I wouldn't limit myself to that market. It's much too small. I think it wouldn't take long to become known all over for the type of work I'd want.
I suspect my market area would actually grow considerably from what it is now. After all, you can ship smaller (than I do now) works of art and signage just about anywhere. With the benefit of a top knotch website and modern technology there's no limit of what might be accomplished.
And I still would turn down flat signage. There's lots of folks EVERYWHERE who do that type work.
I think you can live just about anywhere and do well if you tackle it right. It's about doing absolutely top knotch work, and nothing less.
Build it and they will come. And you will get to charge top dollar for it too.
Mike's article stated (in brief) that Gary Anderson was doing top notch jobs in a very small area and that it's possible that he could go anywhere and establish the same type of work. This was in reply to so many that say "You can't sell that type work here".
Jackson also sited several other folks that were doing the same thing in a very small or low income area. He even used me as an example.
Jill...if the surly guy's customers are coming to you then you should be getting the same thing that he does...right?
[ December 14, 2006, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks for picking up this post Raymond... It saves me re-typing...
Its not often I get to quote myself but here goes...
quote:Wanting to stay in a particular area for personal reasons IS reasonable. And I understand it too. But if you are in a depressed or rural type area you have to get real creative in how you approach business. If you don't, its going to mean you earn little more than a subsistence living.
But there are a few things you have to do to make it in this type market. First off, 'normal', run of the mill work won't get you far. ANd chances are you will have some yokel down the street who will offer to do it for less than what is reasonable.
You have to think bigger... and better.
Why just do business within a 'reasonable driving distance'? Especially if the area you are in has a limited market for the high end work. If I were to do that I would leave a tremendous amount of money on the table.
Its been a while since I wrote the above but I still believe it. We still do only the very top high end work in our shop... nothing else. Word IS spreading in our local market and far beyond. I currently have quotes out for wonderful projects in the Carribean, Eastern Canada, the Midwest US, and Texas (look out Raymond!) as well as locally. All the projects are high dollar and top shelf.
I don't for a minute believe that what I do can't be done by many of the other folks here and everywhere. Luckily these same folks don't believe that. And that's all that keeps me in my lonely (but FUN and profitable) market.
IT WORKS!
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8740 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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OK here's one for you all.... I am out getting the mail, no biggie. Suddenly a horn honks, nearly giving me a heart attack. I turn around and it is my original "client from Hell", who nearly causes a wreck pulling up alongside my driveway on a busy 4-lane highway. "Hey Jill!" he hollers. "We're looking for a place, do you know where it is?" "Where?" I ask, trying to be helpful. He then rattles off the name of my newest competition "XX Signs". I tell him directions, which he can't understand so I have to repeat over the drone of traffic. Off he drives without so much as a thank you. My daughter says I shouldn't have told him the correct location. But this is a guy who won't pay more that $25 for anything, whom I "fired" two years ago. Who also got some foundation to paint "MAIL POUCH" on his barn for free this past summer. Spread the wealth I say! Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I didn't know you lived on a busy 4 lane highway.... sounds like an awesome location and opportunity!
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8740 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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This sounds like a smart mouthed question, I know. But what was the purpose of the story?
It appears as if you are giving evidence of why you can't do first class work in your area (and get paid for it)...because of jerks like you described.
Does his actions determine your worth? Do you change your attitude because he has such a poor one? Sure, it's upsetting, but why allow him to control the way you think?
In another post you cited how someone had been appreciative of what you had done. Two opposing attitudes. Which one would you rather pattern yourself after?
Jerks are not going to leave this earth. They are here to stay. But I don't have to let them get inside my head and turn me around.
I'm convinced that we all have self fulfilling prophecies. We will become the way we think. If it's negative, that's the way we will see the world and everything in it. Just the opposite is also true.
I'm not picking on you Jill...you just were standing in the right place for me to make a point.
[ December 14, 2006, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Actually, Ray, this guy also pestered me (and everyone else) in my hardware store. He'd come in with the sale ad and make sure he was charged correctly for each item. We all hated to see him. He even said "Oh I thought you were so busy with signs? Why are you working here?" And I replied that our economy had slowed down and I needed to feed my family.
I always would have a set retort I planned to say to him if he ever showed up on my property, as I couldn't really bawl him out at the hardware store. But yesterday I was so shocked that I just told him the other guy's location. My mom told me I should have said "Get the hell out of my yard" to him, which was what I'd planned to say!
He's a jerk. Nuff said. I think I just posted the story to illustrate the mentality here, and why it's damn hard for me to be a happy-clappy. Plus it felt so insulting to me.
But yes, I'd rather focus on my "good" clients (I have a couple) thank God! OK I'll stop whining now. Got any cheese? I could go for some Gouda. Or Co-Jack. And some Triscuits. And a beer!
Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6454 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Iron City dontchaknow Brooce. But no 3-Bean salad for you! St. Cloud would have to change its name to Stink Cloud! Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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IC in da metal cans dere... Oooooooooooooofffdah!
No 3 bean salad?!?!?1 I will settle fer some chipped ham and some lebanon baloney sandwiches... with yellow sharp american cheese... on Town Talk bread.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6454 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
I just think it's wrong to blanketly blame business owners for every failure.![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Bash]](graemlins/bash.gif)
I charged and recieved a design fee, but, as you know when they are willing to pay for design, you often put in more than you are compensated for. 
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