posted
quoted a new subdivision sign bout 3 months ago. leeters were 24", 1/2" thick satin black. very classy and "fit" the wall they were going on.
Rode by 2 days ago and see this giant ass lettering appox 30" or better tall and 1/4" thick. im not knocking who did it but it looked cheap and tacky. depth of a letter makes all the difference at eye level. I rode on, mumbling to myself
1 week ago I did a 2 sided .080 aluminum sign that the customer was to install themselves. it was the typical, "art looks good , do it" and then when you deliver it turns to "well I did not know it was going to look like that, what can you do to fix it?" my answer to this question was simple. Give me back the sign and Ill give you back the check and we will be done with this. You could have heard a pin drop.
i get so sick of this city and its cheapass unsatisfied mentality. and its showing all over the place around here.
crappy materials used for permanent signs
someone lettering things and touching all 4 sides of the substrate
printing companies giving crap away at low dpi
people wrapping stuff and the wraps are falling off after 2 years
is it just here or is there cheap crap going on everywhere.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
It just isn't around you. I put the blame for the downturn in the level of skills in the Craft to the advent of rampant computer use.
Computers have allowed a whole new class of untalented and unqualified schmucks access to a trade that they have absolutely NO business being in.
There is a mentality that is permeating the Craft as well that has people with little or no experience acting like they have all the answers and that the true veterans of the Sign Wars don't know what we are talking about and that the reason we choose certain materials is just to make a couple of extra bucks.
I have seen coroplast used as lit sign faces, calendared vinyl used on vehicles, flat faces instead of pan faces, etc. Rookie misstakes being perpetuated by an endless source of rookies and wannabes that just don't care.
I have seen more people, in the last ten years or so, steal drawings, cheat customers by cutting corners, and generally act in illegal, unethical and immoral ways that would make the Devil himself cringe.... or maybe not.
Hey, what do I know? I am just one of those poor businessman sign guys who used to own a shop for 20 plus years who had to go get a job. Dang.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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It's world wide, get used to it, rise above it or get out. I do hope your attitude with your customers is different than you share here. If not you're doing more hurt on your business than any cheap materials are.
Your overall tone in 98% of all your posts is negative, and believe it or not people pick up on that more than you know.
There still are good jobs and people who care about quality out there, if not in your area then maybe it's time to make some changes.
I do hope you take stock of what I wrote and see if there might be some legitimacy to what I am saying here.
[ December 08, 2006, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Cause and effect. 15 or 20 years ago, painting jobs were easier to find and market. The technology of vinyl signage was still growing and many customers were unsure about it's longevity. Over the years, as vinyl sign making equipment has both improved and come down in cost, more people have gotten into this line of work and the price wars ensued. Customers have come to perceive vinyl as "cheaper" as a result. To further add to the situation, shops who do good design work with vinyl and charged accordingly struggled against those who had little or no design backround, but could sell a job on low price alone.
Shops looking for a way to cut their prices to win those wars do it three ways... Cut the time on design. Cut the cost of materials. Cut the profit margin. Do all three of these and it forces you to produce low quality products at a faster rate to be profitable.
With so many shops low balling each other down and so many customers looking to spend as little as possible, signs like you described are the result. Some shops still are able to sell a hand lettered or multicolored vinyl job with a good design, but there's still a ton out there who are knocking them out on low cost alone and seldom try to upsell a job. They have the "modern sign shop formula" and aren't going to change it anytime soon.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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It's kind of the same way around here but there are some who still realize the value of good work.
I think the problem is three-fold.
Yes, you have the customers that just want it as cheap as they can get it, settling for stock fonts just typed out and produced and no consideration given to design at all. They don't seem to realize their cheapskate choices also make their businesses look cheap and customers are put off by that look which affects their bottom line too. Anyone that's paid any attention over the last year can see that Target and even Wal Mart of all places is now trying to improve their images with better design in their ads and their own little private label designer housewares and decorations so they can draw a higher class of customer in to spend more money. Target even has their designers in their commercials urging people to choose better design. Target and Wally World commercials now look identical to Old Navy ads.
Of course you have the talentless signmakers putting that garbage out, but those folks have been around since the beginning of signs, period. Nothing new has happened to change that. Technology has only increased the cost of entry, paint is still $3 a can and brushes are dirt cheap.
Now you combine those two - you have cheapskate customers, you have talentless signwannabes - together they're generating this proliferation of plain, boring, ugly signs throughout a community. Combine that with the fact that 99% of the populus has NO IMAGINATION WHATSOEVER and you've got a whole bunch of lemmings who think that boring, typed out fonts and no design are their only options for a sign because that's all they see around them. Since they have no immagination themselves they can not fathom there's even another option - unless it's put right under their noses.
I deal with this all the time. Customers come to me with ideas that are obviously just plain jane stuff and a lot of times I'll pitch something back at them that's really cool yet just as easy if not easier than what they thought they wanted, and they're like "Oh, wow! I didn't even know that was possible! I'd much rather have that!"
You hit their emotions, convince them you're the only game in town where they can get what you can offer, make it cool but still easy enough for you to produce without much extra work so the cost is still reasonable and you got the sale. People are so unimaginative these days it's pathetically easy to impress them.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Don't EVEN blame this on technology!! About 15 years ago there was a guy snapping signs in my town that was eating my lunch on prices; I looked like Jessie James (not the mc builder) compared to him. The layouts were nice but they were all casual; the lettering was pretty tight too and had plenty of nice colors. The guy would just not go away either. Finally, after several months, he moved on. Another few months later and I found out his "secret". The lettering enamel had been thinned with gasoline! Yeah, it flowed like a dream from the brush but it broke down in the Georgia sun like a snowman in July. In two years there wasn't a single sign still up that he had done. There are still signs up that I hand lettered over 15 years ago!
Bruce I feel your pain bud; we have whores here too but they come and they go. Every year there are at least 3-4 new "sign companies" in the phone book here and every year we fight the same "we can get it cheaper from Jim Bob's Signs" comments. The only trouble is that Jim Bob always winds up going out of business after a few months. I just had a realtor lady come in a few minutes ago; she brought a price sheet she had printed from the internet. I just told her right up front "We don't compete with internet companies". I'm not crazy about realtors in the first place so I didn't really care if I got her business or not - unless it was on my terms. I wrote up the order after selling her on the benefits of doing business locally.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Its funny how I don't run into this problem.
The regular sign market IS trained to think in a Walmart way, to shop by price before quality. But I won't shop that way or do business that way. Its a frame of mind and I believe there still are lots of folks who are in my camp.
Customers who seek me out and come up my drive aren't coming to me for a bargain. They want what I sell. They understand what I produce isn't commonplace or inexpensive. To get to me they have driven past countless other sign shops which produce less expensive signs.
While I admit I have yet to meet a customer with a truly unlimited budget, most I talk to are willing to spend what it takes to get the job done and done my way.... for that's what they came to me for.
The 'secret' to our success is to produce something which no one else does... a niche market. If we were producing ordinary flat vinyl signs we would have to compete in that crowded market place... the last thing I want to do.
We are where we choose to be.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I do blame our slow market on cowboys/girls with plotters. It's hard to put on a happy positive face when you know that the prospective customer you talk to today will probably buy their sign from some numbnuts who bought their sign career thru eBay. But I still try to act professionally and hope they can't smell my desparation.
It's sad when 90% of the public goes for cheap over quality. I am trying not to worry so much. Signs are still trickling in, and I still don't have to go back to the hardware store.
Just saw another shop open up on the other main highway here, but I know the guy and he's not a licky-sticky. I'd rather compete with him on a fair playing field than with some of the other "sign makers" around here. There are now 8 shops within a 5-mile radius of me. Go another 4 miles and add 5 more.
I know lots of people on here say to build up your niche, to offer something nobody else can, but that only goes so far. I try to offer good design and good materials, as well as hand-painting. I do try to suggest better ideas to the client but am not opposed to giving them exactly what they want at MY price and cheerfully giving them their stuff in a timely manner.
Just keep plugging away, even if you secretly want to run your lowball competitors over with a steamroller and stick your client's nephew art to their forehead with a nailgun.
Love....Sweet Little Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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agree with you jill, you just got keep plugging away. Sure you can create niche markets as Dan has but to get to that niche market you still have to live and if a customer wants to spend so much no matter how kick-ass your layout is what do you do.
-------------------- Mark Stokes Mark Stokes Signs Mount Barker South Australia Posts: 388 | From: Mount Barker | Registered: Jan 2005
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I had another take on this subject. The views I see expressed above are normal from a certain viewpoint. (like depression)
However, this crappy work output should give someone who does really nice work a feeling of comfort. Someone who has their head on straight would see this trend and focus his business on ONLY upscale work....then sell the @#$% out of it!
Beautiful signwork will sell, and there is a market for it...but it won't come to those who don't "sell" it.
Look at the problem (and you have ) now create your niche creating what they can't, or wont. Rethink everything you do, and rebuild your reputation.
posted
We've circled this mountain several times and the same stories keep being told.
Some are about hard times and the slow economy. Others are about niche markets and how good business is going.
This week I've talked to several sign folks on the phone. (Bob Gilliland says that is the reason I never get anything done...and he's probably right). Everyone I talked to was upbeat and had more work than they can handle. Some were building new buildings or in the planning stages. Each was confident about the future and either had just purchased or were about to purchase some new equipment or stock up on some new materials. Just by listening I heard excitement about some new things going on in their area and some new materials they were trying out.
Ironically, these people were in all parts of the country - some in large metropolitan areas, but most were in small towns that were not much more than wide places in the road. Some were old timers like me, but most were young guys that were eagerly paying their dues. None were asking for anything but a chance to compete in the market with the skills they had. And none ever said a negative word about the other sign folks in their area.
What does all this mean? I have no idea.
But since I am one of the older guys on this forum and have been doing this just about as long as anybody but Bill Ridell, I have a few observations.
What is being discussed here is not because of technology, vinyl, or global warming. I was hearing this same discussion when I hung around sign shops as a kid, and then again when I was in college, and again during the times I worked for someone else. It's the same old story with new characters. I really don't think all that much has changed over the last 50 years of observations...other than the tools we use.
People are still people and they will still act like people. No generation has a copyright on jerks. Because of today's technology things happen a little faster than in previous decades and we are bombarded with more information than before (most of which has absolutely no meaning) but the only difference between today's client and those of previous years is that they drive different cars and wear different clothes...and probably live in a much larger home, which they cannot afford.
Crap is certainly being produced today and people accept it as normal, but crap was being produced by the old man that I watched lettering a pickup when I was nine and his business was booming.
If you are doing the very best you can do and you have learned all that you can learn and people are still going to Joe Wino...well, I guess you just need to get into another line of work.
But if you are still learning and the best job you've ever done is still out in the future, don't worry...there will always be someone who wants what you have. No everyone. But I don't want to do all the signs in town...just the good ones.
If all this sounds like a sugar coated gumdrop made up by Pollyanna, well I guess that would be me. It has been my story for almost 50 years and will probably be my story until I go home. It has not made me rich by any stretch of the imigination (at least money wise), but it has been a marvelous ride.
Somewhere along the line we have to determine what our goal is.
Is it to make a lot of money? That's possible in this business (or any other) but you can't have very thin skin. And maybe you have to care a lot more about yourself than you do other people. Maybe not.
Is it to make everyone like you? Hey, you're going to have a rough life no matter what business you're in...and I'll let you in on a little secret - not everyone is ever going to like you.
Is is to create something that fills you up and makes others look at you strangely? Hey, join the ranks of artists and artisians around the world who look at a blank canvas, page, stage, or signboard (or anything just sitting there) and can't wait to turn it into something that is in their head and heart than no one has seen before.
Are the jerks getting to you? Yep, they are out there. But they are in the next town or state or country...just like they are in your town. And ten or twenty years from now they will still be there - probably in abundance.
Maybe our goal should be not to be one of them.
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Oh, I like that, Raymond. Thanks! Reminds me of something my dad or father-in-law would have said, and maybe I needed to hear it! Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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That lil guy from Texas just about nailed it!
Life is a bitch, then you die! BUT! that doesn't mean you can't have a great ride along the way!
If business is slow...don't sit thete ctying in your beer! Get off your butt and go knocking on doors! Give the customer a nice design and on quality materials. Those satisfied custom,ers become your best advertisement! NOTHING beats repeat and/or referall jobs. They know your quality and approximate price, no hard selling and negotiating!
Hey! If a big ugly a-hole like me has been so busy for 40 years that at times I had to give away jobs to my friends because I was overbooked ... why can't you do the same?
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
As a follow up to Raymond's comments, I'll share an experience which shows that sometimes the people who initially think they need the cheapest option can be worked out of that mindset.
The other day, someone called, shopping for the lowest price on magnetic signs. When I asked what he wanted on it, I got the usual: Oh, a few words and a phone number. What does that cost? Im usually losing interest at that point but I stayed on the phone with him. I inquired what kind of work he did and found out he painted custom murals and wallscapes. A whole series of light bulbs popped up in my mind. I told him he needed to put an example of his work on his vehicle as part of his sign. But, wont that cost a lot more? I responded that if the sign cost him money, it wasnt doing its job, the sign should make him money. A conversation ensued about the image we could help him project and he began to raise his sights.
He emailed me an example of his work and a photo of his vehicle. I showed him a layout with his mural superimposed over panels with the name of his business and the phone number. He was very excited about the possibilities of what he could get. He said that he might have to sell a grandkid or two but he was going to do it.
I got the job at several times what he thought his budget was when he first called. It wont be magnetic signs, either.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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This will sound simplistic, but as soon as I stopped selling signs as a commodity, and began selling advertising as a service, we started to get much more design work, and much more money for our work.
It is very interesting, but attitude does say a lot about how people perceive your value. I am fortunate in the number of leads we get per week (usually about 20) via our web site. I throw out numbers for what we get for our work, but we're much too busy to really worry whether or not you can afford it.
It's not something that happened overnight, but I can say constantly (and I do mean, constantly) pushing ourselves to be better and better each day has gotten us to a place where so few of our 'competitors' are. Thus, you do gain the advantage of naming your price. And if they can't find it, well they can try to go elsewhere - but in the end, they will get what they pay for.
This year, we experienced 72% growth with the addition of only 1.5 staff members. And thats with my people working 9-5 unlike most sweatshop ad agencies. Yes, I put in my hours - but what we did is just raise our prices, and produce the same quantity of work. Quality is up, prices are up. There's no accidents about what we're experiencing.
And one other thing I might add -- this company has never been as strong as it is now had I not had the guts to hire people who we're better at certain areas than I were. Too many people let their ego make their employment decisions. I can say unequivocally that hiring the best only makes your company better. And as a result of our growth - everyone was rewarded this year with a 401k plan (with 4.5% company match), in addition to a very generous holiday bonus, and the usual paid vacations, etc.
As was stated above, produce something no one else can, and you can name your price.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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Yes, I agree that some of us are successful and have gravitated away from the letters by the pound business model. However, there are far, far too many that haven't and embrace this philosophy and run with it.
I also agree that there was always a subpar painter in town and that they did their best to undermine the market. However, today offers the untalented and unskilled access to this trade by sheer availability of equipment alone.
Bootleg software, fonts, stolen designs, unethical business practices, and such seem to be the norm today rather than the exception.
All one has to is go over SignWeb and other signie type sites to see the crap that goes on there. Gimme this font, gimme that font, who has what... "If it is free, it is for me" seems to be the creedo of far too many people.
Technology is mostly responsible for allowing this to happen. I am not saying it is all bad. Technology is a very cool thing. Look at the stuff Dan Sawatawhovitshkiovich cranks out on his router. He could do that stuff by hand but technology allows him to be doing something else like playing with his kid's kid... What a good grampa!
I will stand by my opinion that this trade is being over-run by a bunch of untalented and unskilled schmucks and the sign buying world is far too willing to accept the poop they produce. Pity.
and I don't think Ray is a pollyanna. I just don't agree with him 100%.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Raymond, Can I be Pollyanna Jr.? I'm glad I kept reading just to get to that little nugget. And that's not a short joke, you're a giant in my eyes and your attitude has to be a big part of what brung ya. Edited to add BTW, 4 new shops within 10 miles of me in 2 yrs. I got more work than I can handle, at my price. That's Validation.
[ December 09, 2006, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: Bill Dirkes ]
-------------------- Bill Dirkes Cornhole Art LLC Bellevue, Ky. Goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are. Posts: 591 | From: Bellevue,Ky. US | Registered: Aug 1999
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bob, Im sorry you dislike my negative attitude. some people run around happy all the time I do not! I have been in sign business for 20 years. Ive painted billboards, done layouts, airbrushed, handlettered, and painted a few cars. I love this business. I love what the business has done for me and what it has given me. This post is about cutomers making crappy decisions not about you being a therapist for me and offering ways for me to "pep" up my life!
I do not reflect a negative attitude toward the customers, I am blunt with them. I offer them the top job at the price range they want. I do the layouts on the digital camera. I give them a couple of options......and still they go with crap.
Jill said it all, about its hard to talk with someone when deep down you know they aint going to use you.(in so many words) And Im sure here have always been cheapass sign dudes but with all the rampant software it increases every year.
and bruce? coroplast used in backlit signs, please tell me that aint true. Thats the cheapest of the cheap
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
this is the best post for "crosstalk" and sharing i've ever read here. Si-give it to us straight, no need to sugar coat it ! ( i like honesty ! )
BruceW., like the one fellow, almost 50,been in business since a helper in sign shop,1974. couldn't BELIEVE there was a career in painting signs, then. dollar fifty an hour to start-loved going to work !!!! The same scenario is mostly true for this region. However, it amazes me that most "decent" sign folks/business/entrepeneurz , like most here in this vocation, DON'T HAVE A WEB SITE. This is a Tool to compete in the marketplace. Now, we preetty good for Southern Md., but there is some real talent on this BB-as you know. ( if it was Sign by Lunchtime, i.e. JoeWino's Sign& Design etc. ) would this site make it ?
-------------------- mark zilliox mark z signs 8425 pushaw station rd. owings md. 20736 301-855-5407 thezs@earthlink.net http://www.markzsigns.com Posts: 348 | From: maryland | Registered: May 2003
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part 2-9 i hit a key or something for premature submission ?)
wait.....i'll get the 2nd cup of SignPainters iV-coffee ! As you know most "new" customers pick up the phone and request quote ,info,etc. And most of you with time in grade & service KNOW a un-educated consumer when you hear one. To compete and hopefully persuade the caller, we wrap up the chat with ..."check out our website & when you feel comfortable with our work, give us a call back".We even let some know we NOT GOING TO BE THE CHEAPEST PRICE-but, rather, their best value-for their advertising dollars. Our site acts like an online porfolio-mostly, since callers & potential clients have internet @ their disposal,they can get familiar with us and hopefully our location-via contact-link-map for their sign-consultation & deposit ! yeahhh. we notice the local competition have no websites OR it's sharp on technology or home page but NO CONTENT- they compete on price mostly not quality,we find.smoke & mirrors. Websites are part of the marketing mix ,even for signshops, like the phone ads or other print media, they are a MIX-in our opinion ( i did use the GI Bill to get a redneck marketing cert. ! honest-straight A's-heck nooo ). The website designers sell themselves just like we sell ourselves. Currently we are having our site redone for the 4th time in 8 years, even wallslopping redneck's have to walk the walk ! Joe Diaz is putting together a site which looks, in it's early stages, like a TOOL that will help us capture & compete in the marketplace,here.Sign folks i think overlook their marketing "presence" also.
Mr. Chapman, and the Super-Canadian granpa type, are real mentors here-god bless you sign veterans for sharing with us all.-even rookiez like me !
There have been other topic's from resident's regarding frustration & throwing in the towel. Sometimes i've also had my doubt's. Pastor Vic said to me one time about this issue....."God dresses you up as a sign person, but that's not who you are ".
finally, who's pippy longsocks?
-------------------- mark zilliox mark z signs 8425 pushaw station rd. owings md. 20736 301-855-5407 thezs@earthlink.net http://www.markzsigns.com Posts: 348 | From: maryland | Registered: May 2003
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quote: sign buying world is far too willing to accept the poop they produce
Nope. The sign buying world gets what they think they want. Actually The sign selling world is making it all too easy for the poopers to poop on the playing field. The completly independant, do it my way, anti authority feelings with no regulations or governing body leaves the field wide open to specualtors, poopers and dabblers.
Even flower arrangers have some regulation in some states. In Louisiana they have to arrange several peices using their own tools and supplies and flowers for a certification board. Why, to show they have at least the ability to design according to some established guidlines.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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I'm pretty much in 100% agreement with what Bruce Bowers is saying here. You can not compare the slew of people in the business churning out low dollar crap with the few hacks that were doing the same thing back in the days of painted signs. The numbers are just too different. I dealt with a number of hacks in the trade twenty years ago. I lost a number of jobs to them but they didn't have anywhere near the affect that the computer driven people have had. For one thing, the hacks , as bad as they were, had to invest time in learning what they did. The computer folks are up and running in a day.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
You and I have had discussions of this very issue. I have long felt that no matter what professional vocation you choose as a money making endeavor, you must prove to someone that you know what you are doing and possess the basic skills and knowledge to get the job done correctly.
Even in my job, I see customers (passed on from the salesman) that accept lesser quality because of lower price. It was the same way in New York. I am sure it is the same way everywhere.
We do sell more jobs because of the better level of design my employers now bring to the table. I am not claiming that there isn't people in the general sign buying public that don't appreciate good design and quality. That was never my point.
However, the bottom line is a determining factor to many buyers. We are never going to change that. That is why I have been trying to push a three tier pricing policy onto the sales staff so that our clients have options instead of "here's the price... take it or leave it".
I have never regretted my choice of the career path I took. Thirty three plus years in the Craft has taken me to places I would have never been, met people I never would have met (even that Texan Pollyannian type dude... ), and allowed my to do what I have wanted to do and even some things I didn't... LOL!
As much as I am one to embrace new technology and advancements, it still remains that I have seen changes in the Craft that were not for the betterment of the trade as a whole.
As over run as I feel this trade is with unskilled and untalented schmucks and wannabe's, I am glad that I am not an autobody man, landscaper, or a remodeler. Every layoff and factory closing brings a whole new wave of them.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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I've been quietly reading all that's said here and I agree with a lot of it and hey cowboy stuff happens in NZ too. One of the biggest things I've discovered is "NEVER, NEVER BAD MOUTH ANOTHER BUSINESS". It doesn't matter if their work is seriously rubbish and you cringe every time you see it. Bad mouthing their business makes you and yours look bad. We started in business 12 years ago and our biggest competitor s*#t on us in 17 different ways and phrases. The result....a whole heap of people coming to us saying "Thought we'd try you guys out as you seem to be upsetting the other blokes quite a lot!" Today, that firm is still bad mouthing us but from a different angle. We are now the largest shop offering vehicle graphics & pinstriping in our area and they are sending customers to us for work that they cannot do. I had one of their guys a number of years ago screaming obscenities at me because we were stealing "his" work from "his" customer. Unfortunately for him the customer in question overheard what he said to me, calmly walked outside, turned to the fella and said "that's the last time I shall ever do business with your company, now apologise to the lady and f&*k off". He was a very quiet, well spoken chap who sold seriously expensive cars. I had done very little work for him but from that day forward I did all of his work until he closed his car lot due to ill health. We've had a big learning curve lately with all of the new technology available to us and we've made some mistakes and done some jobs that we've thought later could have been done a different way and better. At the end of the day our customer base continues to grow and all of our new custom comes via word of mouth. Niche markets are fantastic and I'm exploring a couple of options in that direction. In this fast paced, ever changing world it seems that the most important thing is to keep your eyes open and move with the times not against them. If someone says a sign is too expensive, ask them "compared to what?". All of our work is worth the price charged. If someone wants a better price, offer them a higher one
-------------------- Anne McDonald 17 Karnak Crescent Russley Christchurch 8042 New Zealand
"I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure" Posts: 877 | From: Christchurch | Registered: Sep 2006
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It would be interesting to send undercover customers to the shops of Raymond, Jill, and Bruce W. and record the outcomes. In each case the customer would have instructions to come in with suggestions that would likely result in a less-than-appealing sign.
Bruce and Jill tend to report more negative experiences than the average BB poster, so I wonder if specific reasons could be found for that. Is there something Raymond does differently that gives customers a better experience? How well does he handle suggestions from the customer? Does he have a better way of steering them toward something more aesthetically pleasing? Do these three individuals have any change in attitude or body language when presented with bad ideas from the customer? Do they treat the customer differently from that point? Does the tone of the conversation change when pricing is introduced? How does each one handle that topic? Does the appearance of their shops make any difference? How does the customer feel about the overall experience? Would they come back if they needed another sign?
I would be really curious to see hidden video of those exchanges. Maybe nothing special would be revealed, but the contrary could also be true. It's hard to believe their communities have significantly higher concentrations of jerks, idiots, and aesthetically challenged individuals than the rest of the country. In previous posts Bruce and Jill have given their perceived reasons for the problems they face. Would an outside perspective see a different set of factors? It's possible they are doing things unconciously that affect the experience they have with customers.
It wasn't my intention to offend anyone with this post. I really am curious about how different people handle their customers and what we could all learn from it - good and bad.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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I'm not a bit offended, Russ, and I feel that you have an interesting point.
I know Bruce, and if you'd talk to Dana, she'd tell you that we are a lot alike. We like the same comfort foods and come from similar backgrounds.
We are also both REALLY sensitive types. We are both proud of our talent and abhor the idea of some folks just falling into the sign business that we've known for so many years.
I know I have terrible business skills. I think with my emotions all the time. If some teenager comes in wanting a windshield sticker, I'll give him a good deal and he'll pay cash and tell his pals. I have no problem with that (altho I'd NEVER do a Calvin sticker!) Likewise the little old lady type. I see my Mom in them and am kinder to them. (My sweet little old golf course lady passed away last week and I am so upset)
I get defensive when know-it-all type men come thru my door. Some seem ready to argue before I can even open my mouth. I charge these guys extra. Same for the uber-yuppie real estate lady who uses words like "signage" and "substrate".
Don't get me wrong. I try to be friendly and upbeat, and I really do listen to what the client is trying to say. After awhile, you kind of develop a "radar" about who will listen to your suggestions and who wants all-caps Old English.
I think I have three big problems with my business: 1-I work from my home, even tho it is a commercial property on a main highway. My son has "junk" up by the garage and this makes the house look shabby. It is also hard for me to get the kids to mow the grass or rake leaves etc. I have been known to wait on clients in my PJs too.
2-I am a woman. Many male customers do not take me seriously.
3- I absolutely HATE quoting prices. I loathe asking for money or a deposit. I hate the "haggling" feeling I get. Working at the hardware store was good for me because it gave me the attitude "This is our policy, we request half down and half upon completion". Usually at this point I have a hard time making eye contact with the client. I hate this about myself!
Years ago, when I first started out, I had a great upbeat attitude. I was in love with the Letterheads and I wanted every sign to be a masterpiece. Problem is, many people didn't care. So now I feel the client out. If they seem receptive to a good idea I get all excited and I can't wait to start on their project.
I still act pleased when I have to reproduce nephew art. I try to be kind, saying, "what is there about this design that you really like?" and try to build from there. But if the client is rigid, I just shut up and make their sign.
I always say thank you and I do try to be professional. I have a tiny little office and it has some cool Letterhead panels in it that always attract attention. Not all of my clients are jerks.
Sorry if I come across as negative but I can't help it sometimes. I wonder how many of the really positive people on this site are sole providers, or do they have a partner with a "real" job to fall back on? It's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel sometimes when one is being steamrolled by debt.
And Russ, if you could see where I live, there really are a lot of rednecks and freeloaders in this area.
Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I like what Anne said about talking about your competition. She seems pretty insightful for a young thing.
Yes there are a lot of uneducated people entering the sign business. I wonder why? Is it because equipment is so cheap? I don't think so. Most people wouldn't have a clue as to what a plotter is let alone what it costs. Could it be that they have an underlying desire to be creative?
I entered this business because there was a demand for it. I was being approached because I was reputed to be "artistic". I didn't have a clue as to what I was doing. I don't have the training and for 10 years I was the undermining, uneducated, backstabbing, sign whore.....NOT! but thats what others like I was are being called.
You can't stop new people coming into the business, they have as much right as you or I until some legislation comes into effect where they are required to meet a certain standard in order to have signs in public places. I don't see that happening.
I like to think I am past that status now. What got me there? Mainly Letterheads, trade people patiently working with me to educate me, building my confidence.
Sometimes I think we tend to forget what this place is all about. We all started at the beginning and life is such a fast turnover now that who has time to sit down with an apprentice and patiently teach them the tricks of the trade? You would be very fortunate indeed to land yourself in one of those rare positions.
If you want to survive do three things.... educate your customer, educate your competition and educate yourself.
-------------------- Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again? -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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I just couldn't help but chime in. This post is too much fun!
I've met Jill at Dixie and I've talked to Mr. Bowers on the phone. Both are great folks. I agree with alot of what has been said on this post. good and bad. But to single out folks for speaking how they feel is...well.. crap, can't think of the word. Ever body in this biz, and I am only talking about this biz, has there own tolerance, if you will, for the customer. Some have been doing it long enough that they know what the customer is, and some "think" they know. I'm still in the "think" i know zone even though I have been in this sign crap for all my life. We can learn from the "elders" if we listen. But then there are some that have a attitude that "f*(&%^" em if they don't like it. I unfortunately have that way of thinking thanks to my dear ol dad who started our company a LoOOOng time ago. Sometimes it bites you in the ass and sometimes it don't. But if thats who you are than you get to deal with it. I can put on a game face with the best of them, but at the right point of crap, my game face goes away.
I personally think that if you are so worried about what your competition is doing your gonna lose site of "your" goals. Worry about you and yours is my thinking.
Jilly, my wife does work. Hard if I might say so. And she does bring home a check every month. And its a big help. But if I did not do what I do we would have big problems real quick. To the point of losing our place. Your doing the best for family, right? Well then you should be proud of that. But the problems you have with customers here and there you might have to work on if it botheres you that much.
Everyone has to agree that even doing crappy vinyl signs for a *&^%$ is better than digging a ditch.
Alot of the problem (as I see it) is pride. You make a sign or design a sign and it's your baby. Even if it's ugly you still gotta give it love right? 75% of the stuff I turn out of this shop I think is crap. Because I'm never satisfied after the fact of my designs (or Their design). But when ya get to go to the bank and make a deposit, boy that does feel good, don't it?
I can't count how many jobs I have qouted and lost to some other shop that can do it cheaper. Oh well, can't win them all. If it gets to the point were I am starving and can't make a living, I might consider digging those ditchs. I'm not above it.
We all bitch about the crappy jobs we get and the good ones we lose. But if you get to the point that your that miserable, ya might wanna get a shovel and try that for a while.
-------------------- Snow's Sign Works 865-908-0076 snowman@planetc.com www.snowsigns.com
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message... Posts: 1640 | From: Sevierville, TN | Registered: Jul 2005
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My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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There's another factor in this mix we are tending to overlook a little. Sign makers aren't the same as they used to be.
In painting days, even if they were not the best in town, customers recognized that slinging paint was in itself a skill. Many found it amazing to see a hand lettering design appear from the end of a brush. They still do, so that recognition of skill and quality is still inherently there in the customer base.
We also recognized it in each other. Style was often the basis of the customer's choice of who did a job. Jim was the solid hand letterer with a flair for bold graphics, Pete was the way to go for straight forward traditional lettering, Mark was the guy doing bouncy, fun scripts and I was known for bold, bright colors and airbrushing tricks. We all the the same kinds of work...signs, vehicles, motorcycles, etc...so forget the niche theory. We all got versatile out of need and served multiple markets, but each with a different approach and hand crafted flair. There was another guy named Jim who came along with a vinyl cutter one day who was the first around here to offer vinyl graphics. He filled a need here as well and we all admired that he was bringing a new approach to signs in town. To this day, I can't remember ANY OF US badmouthing each other. We could always find something good, improved or unique in each other's work. There was a mutual respect that we each had our customers and had earned them by our own merits and styles. Many of us went head to head at race car shows and they became something of a benchmark every year seeing how each of us had progressed, how things we going and we shared some honest, constructive criticisms. We are all still friends to this day. Although not aware of the term itself, we were all Letterheads.
It's not that way anymore by a long shot. The technology aside, there's a different kind of sign shop in the world today.
The proliferation of people who start shops as a way to make a quick buck continues. A very, very few branch out past a few basic layouts, and as a result, take on a somewhat cut throat attitude. They're not looking to make a career of this, just as much as possible as fast as they can. Modern day snappers. Once they burn out their low end market and grow stale on limited skills, they depart leaving a real mess behind...crappy looking signs. Unlike the snappers, they now leave their equipment sold to the next guy with even less skill.
It's a mentality that seems to have taken hold... "The competition is the enemy and to hell with respect. I want his and I'll undercut him to get it...now! I don't have to earn my stripes...I can cut them and wear them day one."
If you honestly think that the broad marketing of new technology hasn't had an adverse effect, think of it this way...
There have always been what I call the real weapons of this trade. Solid design skills, some artistic backround, personal flair and the determination to continually try to improve those skills are by far the most powerful. Striping with a sword, carving your way around a tricky letter, attacking with a dagger, quietly making a statement with a quill or lighting a fire with an airbrush are the results of wielding those weapons with a target in mind...the end result. In the last several years, that weaponry has grown to include computers, plotters, wide format printers, routers...powerful weapons they are in the right hands. Many brandish them well.
But there's no ten day waiting period to buy a plotter...and the whole world is left looking at unappealing drive-byes done on storefronts, cars, vans and entrances by those who don't even know how to aim, much less hit the mark....unless they take it in mind to actually try to do it right.
Those seem fewer and further between these days... Rapid
[ December 09, 2006, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Ray Rheaume ]
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Just for the record the only time I bitch about my competitors is right here. If we can't come here for the occasional whine, what good is this place? You can't talk about signs to anybody but fellow sign people. Nobody else gives a flying fart. I have had customers come here saying my competitors were talking smack on me (mainly that my prices are too high) but I have yet to stoop to that low. And I have been many things in my life but never a sign whore. And I don't recall saying that about anyone here. I always tried to do the right thing. I do try to just keep on keeping on, but it is hard NOT to worry about my clients going elsewhere to people who are clueless as to design. There is also my mean little alter ego that loves looking at these alleged "signs" I've quoted on that have gone elsewhere...I pretty much feel that the idiots who bought them got their just desserts. Jake any time you need help with that ditch let me know Buddy! Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I was just told by someone that my comments above sounded smug and offensive. It certainly wasn't my intention to come across that way. If I have given the impression that my life is a bed of roses, or that I have all the answers, I apologize. I am, however, very interested in what makes one business work where another one fails.
A previous business failure has me working for someone else rather than running my own operation. Someday that will change, but I want to be wiser the next time I make a go of it. I think I know most of the reasons for the failure, and if I'm honest with myself, it was entirely my fault. I didn't do it intentionally, but it was still my own actions in cases, and lack of action in others that killed the business. I don't blame my customers or the market. It was me.
That is why I am interested in knowing more about the people who have a positive outlook on this business. How do they do it? I want to know so I can do it too.
It's certainly the right of those having trouble to voice their frustration. It's also my right wonder about solutions.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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Wow, thankyou Kelly for calling me a young thing! I guess my basic philosophy is to treat people the way that I would like to be treated. I can moan about my competitors and customers but at the end of the day I figure it this way. If I quote for a sign and some one undercuts me, I ain't gonna match that price cos I quite like to have some profit in my work! We've had guys take custom away from us with prices that were literally non-profit! Funnily enough six months later our customers are back looking sheepish and wondering why they ever bothered with the moron that offered them such a great deal!
It's happened a lot! I just smile and thank them every time. I've only lost my cool with a couple of customers (I have chewed my tongue bloody wanting to with others) not being sexist or anything but they were both men who started out by treating me like an idiot then thought they'd get cute, chat me up, then get offensive when I politely declined their advances. Jill I am hearing your "Men don't take me seriously cos I'm a woman".
I've been in the industry as a "Sticky" for 17 years. I've recently picked up a brush which I love. I hope to still be in the industry for another 30 years! Every day is a new and interesting learning experience and morons, idiots and truely wonderful people will continue to cross my path!
-------------------- Anne McDonald 17 Karnak Crescent Russley Christchurch 8042 New Zealand
"I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure" Posts: 877 | From: Christchurch | Registered: Sep 2006
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I'm a firm believer that failed businesses are only caused by the people running them.
Markets may come and go but it's up to business owners to adapt to change, and that includes seeking completely different industries if needed, before the bottom drops out!
When you think about the skill set of sign people, you have people who can paint, perform carpentry, mason work, fabrication/welding, sculpting, do design work on computers and the list goes on and on. With computers and the internet, you have the ability to reach customers you never thought possible and show them your work, and the ability to work from just about anywhere. There is absolutely NO reason people with these kinds of skills should have to go hungry. Even if they can't make it with a sign shop because of the market, those skills can be put to use in other industries.
I'm included in that as well. I have marketable skills out the wazoo but the problem is I'm too hung up on developing the skills and not marketing them as well as I should. If I put the same effort into marketing as what I put into my fitness (my main priority in life right now) I'd be busy as a one-armed wallpaper hanger.
Then again, I've also been playing with the idea of getting certified in fitness training and nutrition, and taking business a completely different direction!
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Just today, I was talking to a friend who I was installing truck lettering for. He is a classical pianist... but also a high end plumbing professional. (yeah... unusual combination)
I was mentioning to him that it is surprising when I discover someone having difficulty with math, fractions & reading a tape measure. I knew he must depend on measuring & basic math skills in his line of work also. And I knew from previous discussions that employing others to help him was a relatively new part of his business, as it is with me.
The relevance to this topic that I see, is based on my belief that we all are blessed with a few "natural talents" ...things we do well with no effort. For me, math has always been one of those things. Social "skills" & by extension, also selling skills seem to be another natural talent.
On the math thing I still am surprised when I see someone struggle with math. If it were not happening in front of me, I would take for granted that working with basic number & basic measurements is an easy task, & is easy for everyone.
As far as the curiosity Russ mentioned regarding the differences one might see watching Ray Chapman's customer service style compared to any number of others who may handle the same mystery shopper differently, I think there is a lot to that.
I have watched myself get better & better at that process over the years & I can truely thank Letterville & many of my friends here for part of the inspiration behind that improvement.
But while I think I have found & nurtured a talent in that process... I don't know how easily that could be taught. For me, I think the most valuable part of whatever helps me be successful at the sales counter, is a natural talent I was given & not only didn't work for... but don't completely recognize or understand... I just seem to be able to make things go the way I want them to go a majority of the time. (Letterville has just helped me aim higher)
Anyway, my point is that Ray (& others)can encourage everyone to aim higher... & to be optimistic... but there are finer points to his "technique" that are not as easily taught... and that he may not even fully appreciate, or know how to put in words.
I don't feel that I have half the artistic talent of many people I look up to here, but I do have a good business sense. For several years now, since I first started admitting to myself I was willing to hire help to allow my business to grow... I always said that designing was the last thing I would ever pay for help with, because that is what I enjoy the most.
Just this past week I had the revelation that I DO want to hire a talented design person (from the sign industry) because I am now very busy growing my business... & that is a design project of sorts, it is very rewarding from a creative standpoint as well as financially rewarding. I have enough jobs now, that I could delegate 90% of the design work & still do enough design myself to continue to develop & improve that skill.
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russs Im not offended either, thats your perception.
im not arrogant, im not mean, i am firm and experienced.
When a customer approaches me I ask address and how they heard about me. I go out take pics of site and discyuss possible sigange that would fit their needs and /or budget.
I come back and in a couple of days I have 2-3 layouts and a full color brochure, koozies and magnetic business cards.
If they have any further questions call me. If they get other quotes and mine seems very high call me and well see if we are comparing apples to apples(this actually works sometimes and I can intervene some sorry ass quotes and crappy materials) I also stay on top of them a call bout every week or so. It seems very easy for a customer to "lose" you and yourstuff. No Im not negative to them. I dont bad mouth other sign companies either to the customer. I vent on here.
I will say I may be blunt on some occasions as in the customer saying "Quicky Signs will do the same thing as you for 1/2 the price" my reply to this is "Tell them to get started!" I have had them approach me with "Quicky Signs will be doing the signs for less and would you email over the layout?" I reply NO! If they can do better price they can do their own layout....thats may be uncalled for at that point the war is over.
This statement is demeaning to me. I dont sell cars or office equipment.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Math? That was my worst subject...even had to have a tutor for fractions in 7th grade who might as well have been speaking Chinese to me for as much as I absorbed. Thank God I don't have to punch X-Y coordinates into my 4E or I would happily slash my wrists.
Spelling, thankfully, is usually one of my better talents. Art was my best subject.
And I was born shy, have been fighting with it since my teen years, and am almost over it. I was talking with a female Head the other day and we both do this...The deposit is paid, sketch approved, the sign is finished. But then we get scared to call the client to tell them their sign is ready! We are afraid that they will bitch about something they've signed off on, or try to nickle-and-dime us after the fact. It's only happened to me a few times in 21 years, but there is always that underlying fear of rejection.
And maybe men don't take me seriously because of the PJs. I am really not a feminist, but I do loathe the "little lady" type guys if you know what I mean.
And sorry for getting my Bruces mixed up. The original Bruce who posted this always seems to be on the same page as me. I like his saltiness. He's not a candy-coater. To answer his original question? Yup...it's here too.
lettering running to the edges over-use of casual alphabets/Brush Script really awful color schemes peeling cheap vynull crappy wraps faded digital prints horrendous layouts improperly used VectorArt clippies too many typestyles on one sign the over-use of distortion too many special effects making the sign illegible
I actually LOVE it when I drive by a place and see a decent sign. (usually made by my mentor, who is fed up too)
Most of the big developments with the fancy signs get them out-of-state. Most of them are pretty nice too, except for the plethora of University Roman. I get excited when I see a LHF on a sign. IF it's used right!
Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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), and allowed my to do what I have wanted to do and even some things I didn't... LOL!
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