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This is what I'm talking about. Sam, it's hard to be sympathetic to your situation when you don't provide any evidence to support it. Until more facts are given, it's just another sensational claim.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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I'm placing you ALL under arrest for practicing law without a license!! ...and I'm gonna tell too. Now, everybody freeze! Now, get down! no, not that kind of getting down; stop the dancing! On the floor! Hands behind your back! I'm also charging about half of you with plagarism for using someelses original saying as your own personal tagline. Now you Canadians come on down and surrender yourselves peacefully - and bring me a box of Cubans when you come. And next time I see the same picstripe lines on your panels that I've seen a million times... you're gonna pay bigtime for that.
I hope I at least make a little bit of a point here, not just the humor.
[ December 03, 2006, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Ricky Jackson ]
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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Here's my 2 cents. If you make a John Deer logo for a John Deer dealer your ok. If you make a logo for a John Deer owner you broke the law. The dealer is authorized by the manufacturer. Of course the manufacturer my want dealers to by there graphics from authorized suppliers as I'm sure Harley Davidson does. So the only one making money on there name is them. As far as what is fare well they worked hard to build there name what the he-- gives you the right to profit from it. I wouldn't feel bad about copying your art for my own use, but to sell it would put a knot in my gut. I am ok with copying tools for my own use and I'm quite sure its legal too. This guy must have known he was wrong, and the lady who turned them in should be ashamed for thinking one crook is somehow better than the other. I would say as artists we should all defend the copy right. But that is my opinion. I cant say what other artists should do. I defend the copy right of all and applaud law enforcement for a job well done. Of cource if it were a civil matter only, as it should be then they would be out of line. That is I think the government has too many laws (but I don't want to get political).
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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I kinda feel that if you are reproducing a Harley or Deere logo for a customer to put on his windshield, it should be allowed. Harley is getting free advertising from someone who feels passionate enough to sport their logo on their car or toolbox or their body tattoo for that matter.
If you put their logo on a motorcycle and then try to sell it as a Harley, then you should be dealt with severely. Even trying to sell an item as a Harley or Deere "brand" item, be it a key chain or a hat, is wrong.
But, if all you are doing is making a "backslanted #3" for a fan of a deceased NASCAR racer, I consider it a "fair use" of a logo.
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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It might even be possible that if 'the law' didn't arrest the guy, their case could be weakened, as in the other people, with the jeans and stuff, would claim "selective enforcement". I've heard of a guy being left alone by the zoning enforcement division (sign police) on the same grounds.
It's not accurate to say we've all used logos illegally, at least in the last 17 years. Granted, there was a big turning point in my life when I became a Christian, but since then, I don't recall doing it. There was the time I made a cartoon character on a sign for a store that actually sold those products. I went inside and examined the product. Probably should've called, but when I went through that with the Gulf Oil Corp, what a hassle. I did finally get permission to use their logo on an illustration of an old time gas station.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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I was rather surprised to learn that even when the local Harley Davidson shop paid me to do signs & trucks with their logo (provided by them) that even this is illegal.
But I did it & I'd do it again! (and I'm a Christian too... but we're not talking about that)
posted
Doug, the reference to being a Christian was more of a chronological point, but man, that business with the Harley shop! You gotta be kidding! (I know you're not) What's that like? There's got to be an analogy somewhere, something like a rich woman abandoning her children to become orphans.
Granted, maybe all they needed was permission. Cut! Drama over.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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yeah, I know... just funnin' with the line we walk
but I was very recently reading a post that was convincingly stating that EVEN for an authorized shop... I am not authorized to prepare decals for sale to supply that shop... THEY must contact their higher ups for the decals, or at least for permission.
I felt suddenly uninformed & assumed that I may be in the minority around here on that point... so I figured I'd mention it & see if it would be refuted, verified, or otherwise discussed untill reaching one or both of those logical conclusions.
posted
this is an intersting enough topic to break my rule about not posting here...
A case from my own experience... in 1994 I was commissioned to letter a number of semi-trailers. The lettering included a cartoon by a well-known local artist, which was very specific to the client's business. After working on about half of these trailers, one day I got a call from an attorney, who in a rather bullying tone told me that I owed the cartoonist a royalty for use of a copyrighted image! My reply was that as the image had been provided by the client, my assumption was that the client owned the image and had the right to reproduce it on his vehicles. The attorney told me very emphatically that this was NOT the case, that I owed his client (the catoonist) thousands of dollars in royalties.
Sound fishy? As soon as I got off the phone I called my customer and left a message about what had happened. I also called MY lawyer - a former customer who was very well connected in the Rhode Island legal establishment - and told him the story.
Well, apparently the manure hit the propellor after that. Over the next few days I got letters and/or phone calls from the cartoonist, from my customer, and from my lawyer. Turned out the lawyer who had called me was the former attorney for the cartoonist, a shady character who had a reputation for shaking people down for money by threatening lawsuits. It turned out that the cartoonist had been commissioned for the cartoon by my customer, but that the right to reproduce it had not been put into writing. The upshot was that I was assured that I did NOT owe royalties for using the cartoon, and that the agreement to reproduce the cartoon was then formalized between the cartoonist and the customer. As for the attorney who called and threatened me, apparently this incident caused the State Legal Ethics Board to open an investigation (instigated in part by my attorney) and eventually he was disbarred.
12 years later, the customer's business is bigger than ever, my attorney became a judge and is now Chief Justice of the Rhode Island Supreme Court, and I still see some of those trailers with that cartoon out on the road from time to time.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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why then are the people who sell these vector images to us don't get in trouble. I agree with gene if some one wants a sticker of there favourite brand why not its another form of advertising for them.
-------------------- Mark Stokes Mark Stokes Signs Mount Barker South Australia Posts: 388 | From: Mount Barker | Registered: Jan 2005
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regarding harley davidson here is what i know from my own experience.
we did signs for a new franchise shop the owner was a customer of mine from other businesses that he owned and he contracted with my company to do his signs. we did them with art supplied by the franchise owner to the franchise owner's specifications.
after the project was completed we received notification from HD that we were in violation for reproducing their logo and images without authorization, i told them that i was under the impression that we were authorized to do so as we had permission from the franchisee, we were told that that was not the case and that HD requires authorization from the corporation...i told them that we did not do anything illegal (and i still hold that position and would never want to go to court against HD) they informed us that they had a packet containing specifications, color samples, vinyl film approved colors and the numbers for each brand of film etc. and a release that must be signed saying that you will not use their images in any of your advertising website brochures etc....blah blah blah
the job was inspected and found to meet their specifications and we were told how to procede in the future (and we did so on subsequent projects for them) i believe that the way this came to their attention is that executives were present at the opening of this location as we had a bucket truck on location doing last minute work before opening i am not certain just my guess. i do not think there would be a problem doing pop work banners for them but i do not know or rather i do not think you would get "caught by the corporate powers that be" as i still believe we did nothing in violation of the law as the work was for a harley davidson franchisee, however, i do understand their position as for brand recognition there can be no deviation and we all know that there are companies out there that may be capable of selling a job but incapable of meeting the specifications set forth by a company so strict in useage of their images.
so if you are contacted to do signage for a new harley davidson dealership make sure that either the franchisee or you contact HD and get their release form and specifications so that you do not get the same nastygram that i received....
Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by David Harding: Is it any surprise that brandsoftheworld.com operates out of Russia?
I wondered about that...I keep waiting for it to disappear.
I had an interesting experience with copyrited images with Daimler-Chrysler a few years ago. I had restored a Jeep that I own and had reproduced the "Renegade" graphics on it. I had several people express an interest in restoration decals for Jeeps, and at the time, no one was licensed to do repros, so I persued it with Chrysler. I got a packet of information with licensing applications, specifications, etc.
A good friend of mine was working at Chrysler at the time and gave me the name of the guy that was in charge of their restoration parts program. I gave him a call to discuss what I was thinking of doing and to ask him a few questions. He was very friendly and helpful and was encouraging me to proceed, as they were looking for someone to get started on licensed restoration decals for Jeep.
I told him that I had already made a set of '76 Renegade graphics for my own personal Jeep, and he said, "Oh....well we'll need to get our royalty check from you soon, or you'll have to remove them."
"HUH!?!" I started to plead my case, saying that since I didn't get paid for them...I made them for MY own Jeep...blah, blah, blah. As my blood pressure went up he started laughing, told me to calm down, and explained that by the letter of the law, it was illegal for me to reproduce ANY copyrited image without permission, for ANY reason. BUT, would they persue me for it? No... If I made some up for a few friends, would they come after me for that? Probably not...
But, if I started making them up in quantities, and advertised them etc., then they would issue a cease and desist order and then try to work with me to get licensed. Bottom line was, if their copyrited image was being sold, they wanted their cut.
I didn't end up going any further with the licensing due to their (at the time) rigid specifications and red tape. There are now at least two companies that are licensed to make these. And my original "bootlegs" are still on my Jeep.
-------------------- Frank Sanborn Sanborn Signcrafters Charlotte, Michigan Posts: 10 | From: Charlotte, MI | Registered: Aug 2006
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A year and a half ago, a Cadillac dealer wanted us to paint the new logo on a huge awning they were having installed. I contacted Cadillac to get approved vector files and they told me the local dealer "had the resources" to optain it for me. The dealer was clueless about obtaining that, although they managed to get a hundred feet of awning material delivered to our shop. I ended up buying a membership in an outfit that was a merchant here for a while that had the logo in vector form and I downloaded it from them.
The dealer had neglected to check with the city to see if they could do the graphics and their permit wasn't approved once they applied for it. The lettering never got done, however, they did pay me well for all of my time on the job.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5092 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I wonder: Why weren't the cops at Atlantic City at the USSC show arresting vendors? I noticed this weekend that every ..and I mean EVERY.. one of the printer vendors were printing copyrighted material and handing them out.
For example, in the Gerber booth, they were printing Jimmy Buffet Margaritaville restaurant signs, Harley Davidson, and various other logos on the Solara UV machine, and then cutting them out on the router... people were waiting in line for the HD and Margaritaville signs...
In almost every major booth, there were printed/routed/cut/channel letter signs from Pizza Hut, McD's, Pepsi, Mountain Dew, and all kinds of others being given away as samples...
The advertising and attention they were getting from giving away these copyrighted items are worth a lot more than the $5-10 dude was making for his decals, in my opinion...
Again, not saying he's right for doing it, just that it's something we all deal with and I hate to see him lose his equipment over it...
(((Can you imagine the cops showing up at that show and confiscating all the printers and routers out of some of the largest booths!!)))
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Jon Jantz: (((Can you imagine the cops showing up at that show and confiscating all the printers and routers out of some of the largest booths!!)))
OK, on one hand we have a poor working guy just struggling to make a living; he probably doesn't have the slightest clue that he was violating copyright laws. He gets bent over and driven to Pittsburg. On the other hand there are the big companies, swarming with PNiG corporate types who probably know copyright law backwards and forwards; they protect their OWN brands, right? They are printing and passing out HD and Margaritaville "merchandise" as fast as the newest and fastest machines can pump it out. They go from show to show doing it. Methinks there is a deceased Ethiopian in the lumberyard.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Since when is it a signpainter's responsibility to chase down copyright and petition the Guardians for the Proper Display and Adoration of the Holy Logo? That's the client's job. If he's a Harley dealer, then HE deals with Harley; I don't. I agree with Cam, who said
"My reply was that as the image had been provided by the client, my assumption was that the client owned the image and had the right to reproduce it on his vehicles."
...And if he doesn't own the cartoon, then that will be HIS problem with the cartoonist, not Cam's. It might occur to me to ask "BTW, you DO have the Rights to this little mud-pie, yes?" Or it may not. When a man owns a new Dodge and wants a vinyl Ram on it, I'm not going to beg Daimler-Chrylser for their Indulgence to help their client advertise for them. If they really don't like it, I guess they can take back the truck and give the customer a refund, but that's their business. If I wanted into that kind of business, I guess I'd be a lawyer.
There are probably some differences in the foregoing and the original post. Originally, the guy was actively soliciting work that may violate copyright. Several people have asked 'How was he to know?' That's a fair question, in this era and aura of Branding.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
And next time I see the same picstripe lines on your panels that I've seen a million times... you're gonna pay bigtime for that.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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