posted
Last weekend here in Winston-Salem a local flea market was raided for counterfeit merchandise. 10 people were arrested of which 4 of them were charged with a felony. One of the people arrested was cutting logos,such as John Deer,Ford,Harley Davidson,and others.He wasn't even using a disk.This man looks at a logo and incredibly reproduce it in corel 9.The law enforcement people took all his money from his pockets and his wallet,his computer, and his cutter. Does anyone know if this awesome computer artist who is struggling and has just recently gotten married be charged with this.If someone has purchased a disk with logos and sells cut vinyl to be put on their vehicles,are they setting their self up to be arrested.
-------------------- Bill Wood Bill Wood, Sign Artist 3628 Ogburn Ave., NE Winston-Salem, NC 27105-3752 336-682-5820 Posts: 397 | From: Winston-Salem, NC | Registered: May 2006
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Vinyl Master Pro has built in corporate logos but has this warning first. It is someone else's artwork.
"IMPORTANT INFORMATION: The Corporate Logos listed here and in VinylMaster Pro are provided for convenience only and are Logos, trademarks, copyright and registrations of their respective owners and you are not to use these for any purpose other than those granted in writing by the legal owner of any Corporate Logos, trademarks, copyright and registrations that appear in the VinylMaster Pro program, it is the purchasers responsibility to obtain the proper permission and Future Corporation shall not be held liable for any illegal or improper use of the Logos, trademarks, copyright and registrations. Future Corporation does not endorse, condone or agree to any illegal misuse of the Corporate Logos that appear in VinylMaster Pro program, and it is the expressed intent of Future Corporation that it is the purchasers responsibility for any unauthorized use of the Logos, trademarks, copyright and registrations to be solely the purchasers responsibility."
[ December 01, 2006, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Slim chance of getting nailed - but as you can see it is possible.
Doing it in a public arena like that is asking for a greater chance of getting nabbed.
No one can say it's right without the permission of the manufacturer....but my guess is that even the people that will rant and rave about the abuse of copyrighted logos have done it at one time or another themselves if they were completely honest.
It's not easy being perfect....
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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However, just because a logo is legitimately sold on a CD, it does not give someone the right to sell it nor does the fact that he reproduced it from sight. While it is a testament to his artistic skills, it does not alleviate him of any of the ramifications of his actions.
Harley-Davidson does not allow it's logo to be reproduced anywhere or any how without permission and suitable royalties being ponied up. Does anyone remember about 2-3 years ago when OCA was sued by H-D and ordered to recall all the CD's that they sold with the H-D logo on it?
The law does not take into account the veracity of someone's character when deeming if their actions are legal or not. Stealing bread because you are starving is still stealing in the eyes of the law. Yes, I realize that John Law has been known to look the other way when circumstances warranted it (Katrina aftermath comes to mind... for looting FOOD only... not shoes and big screen TV's) but it does not change the facts.
Will this arrest change the way or location thatsome people do business? Maybe around your area it might. I believe that until the law puts some teeth and consistancy into copyright enforcement, nothing much is going to change.
I have empathy for this young guy. The fact he lost all his equipment sucks. I am sure that there is more to the story. Keep us posted. I am interested in seeing how this turns out.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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I've heard of a represenative of Disney going around to airbrush booths in the tourist area and making life very uncomfortable for those rendering their characters without permission.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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I remember painting several cartoon caracters on t-shirts in the '80s. Up until the time nearly every artist and shop got nailed. I feel for the guy, but I also have rent, insurance, utilities, etc.
-------------------- Mike gatlinburg Sign Crafters Posts: 1051 | From: Gatlinburg, TN | Registered: Oct 2005
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Trademarks carry "offensive rights" which mean that the owner of the trademark must actively persue the disallowance of their intellectual property or they will lost their rights to it. I used to think that Disney (notorious for going after day care centers for using Winnie the Poop) was a thug but after I learned the "why" I changed my tune. Remember when OP got the nastygram from Signs Now corp for using "Signs Here and Now"? THAT is the reason; they HAD to go after him or lose their rights to it.
That sucks bigtime for the guy just trying to eek out a living. I'm wondering how many of the jackbooted thugs have pirated software, music and other technically illegal contraban? No offence to law enforcement but this just smacks as a police state enforcement to me, not something a free country should tolerate. If the plantiffs filed a complaint, grevience or charge that's different but I seriously doubt that any charges were actually filed by any of the I.P. owners. Maybe the guy could visit city hall and make a few citizens arrests. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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THe fact is this guy (and all others who do it) were using property which they have no right to.
A few years ago I was building a one of a kind hotrod... a car I designed myself. I did up some artwork to give myself and others who helped me with the car an idea of what it would look like when done.
One of the folks I shared this artwork with was the guy doing the upholstery. He did a great job for me and I paid him on the spot.
A few months later I was in the neighboring town and saw a sign on a used car dealership lot. It was the primary identification for this new business. And on the sign was an exact reproduction of the artwork for my car. Whoever did the artwork had obviously traced it exactly. I stopped and politely enquired who had done the sign and the fellow gave me the name of the signmaker.
It was the fellow who did the upholstery on my car. He ripped off my design without my permission and used it to identify someone elses business. I phoned him told him the sign needed to come down immediately. He couldn't understand just why I might be upset.
In the end it really didn't matter for the car lot didn't survive but a couple of months. Just the same the fellow HAD NO RIGHT to use my artwork for ANY purpose without my permission.
Same goes for any artwork produced by anybody. Piracy is a crime.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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"The law enforcement people took all his money from his pockets and his wallet,his computer, and his cutter".
Poor guy, no money, no ID, no drivers license.
He Probably will get a ticket for driving without a license. I wonder who will keep the money and his property?
Seems to me they should have issued a ticket and let a judge fine him or waited till some company sued him for infringement. Of course it is easier to steal money from this kid than chase drug dealers or other criminals that might shoot back.
ernie
-------------------- Ernie Balch Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 518-885-9899 Posts: 405 | From: Malta, NY | Registered: Jan 2003
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Ricky said "Trademarks carry "offensive rights" which mean that the owner of the trademark must actively persue the disallowance of their intellectual property" ---------------
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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Ricky said "Trademarks carry "offensive rights" which mean that the owner of the trademark must actively persue the disallowance of their intellectual property... "---------------- Maybe that's what happened. Counterfeit consumer goods is a common topic, but most people have no concept of a "counterfeit logo." A bust like this is so uncommon, that one wonders what/who ordered it. It will be interesting to see how this turns out. On one hand we have the Noble Upholding of the Holy Corporate Logo, and on the other hand, they kick a young man out of business to do it.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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A few years back, Volkswagen cracked down on aftermarket manufacturers. They forced the removal of their emblem from the front of a VW van, used in their ads. Even independent VW service shops felt the sting. I have removed the VW logos from my vintage VW, in silent protest. And I like it better without any logos. At least I won't get accused of using their logo without their permission.
-------------------- Donald Miner ABCO Wholesale Neon 1168 Red Hill Creek Dobson, NC Posts: 842 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Apr 2006
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Reading all of the above posts about stealing artwork and logos- reminds me of a visit to the sign show in Charlotte a few years back. While walking the show, we came upon a booth exhibiting sandblasted signage. This is what we specialize in, so we stopped to check it out. And just what did we find in their photo album? Yes, several photos of my work, and those of another sign artist from my area. When I asked the lady, "Did you make all of these signs?" Her reply was "yes". When I pointed to one of my signs and asked, "Did you make this school sign?" She answered, "Yes". Of course, my reaction was anger. Then I asked her did she make this other sign (belonging to the other local sign artist in my town). She answered, "Yes". I then said to her, "No, you did not because I made this one and these others and (name) made that one and also,these". Her response was, perhaps they looked similar. Well, a custom sign artists recognizes his own work! She said I would need to speak with her husband. Their excuse for this, was.... these photos had been included with the business they had recently bought. (We live 3 hours drive from them) Well, okay, maybe someone else just liked them and took a pic of them, I have done the same thing. But, for her to stand there and say, "Yes, she made it", certainly ruined my day.
-------------------- Debra Carr Sign Crafters 502 S. Main Street Hendersonville, NC 28791 Posts: 82 | From: Hendersonville, NC | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by E. Balch: Seems to me they should have issued a ticket and let a judge fine him or waited till some company sued him for infringement. Of course it is easier to steal money from this kid than chase drug dealers or other criminals that might shoot back.
ernie
Ernie, using that logic then the next time the police bust a meth lab they should just write a bunch of tickets but leave the meth lab open, right?
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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I know this is a little off topic but speaking of originality, a story comes from my grandmother about my Mom.
This is true, my grandmother was truly a beautifully decent person. She told me this after my mother passed away since my mother wouldn't ever reminisce about almost marrying someone else than my dad, because us kids wouldn't have ever been born.
Anyway, my grandmother told me and my brother and sisters that when my mother was in her early twenties, she dated a very nice young man. He was wonderful and my grandmother really liked him. My mother, however, told my grandmother that this young man asked her to marry him. My grandmother thought he was a very, savvy, ethical and interesting guy and asked her daughter(my Mom) why she wasn't considering it also.
My Mom, said, "Oh Mother, I can't possibly marry him. He's got a some really bizarre ideas. He is nice, Mother, but, he is not thinking clearly. See, he keeps talking about taking an entire cooked dinner and wrapping it to put in the freezer and then, he wants to put it in the oven a couple days later! Mom, he's really got some strange ideas, even though I really love everything else about him. My grandmother said to my Mother, honey, your date is at the door, now!
My grandmother answered it and said, "Oh, Mr. Stouffer, come in please, my daughter will be right down; have a seat. How are you today?"
[ December 02, 2006, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: Deb Fowler ]
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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Heres my wonderful thoughts of the day. IF YOU DONT WANT ME TO USE YOUR DAMN ART DONT THROW IT ON A DISK AND SELL IT TO ME.
do you think I pull it up and just stare at it. what the hell is wrong with people. Ill burn my art to a disk and you can look but dont export, you can export but dont print. you can print but dont distibute
okay that was too close to the devils advocate I admit I stole that, see I did it again
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
"Plagiarism is presenting someone else’s work as if it were your own, whether you mean to or not. ‘Someone else’s work’ means anything that is not your own idea, even if it is presented in your own style. It includes material from books, journals or any other printed source, the work of other students or staff, information from the Internet, software programs and other electronic material, designs and ideas. It also includes the organization or structuring of any such material."
Personally, this strikes a very sour note to me. I was trained in art and the ABSOLUTE RULE OF RULES was that you NEVER, EVER claim someone else's work to be your own. Given the same circumstances you described, I would have certainly taken the photos...right there on the spot...of any of my work in that person's portfolio....and calling the husband.
Once you've identified the work as someone else's, for them to continue marketing themselves with those photos is both unethical and a willful form of false advertising.
As Ricky points out, it's the responsibility of the person who's work/copyrights are being misused to pursue their case and/or seek enforcement of the laws. In your case, producing the invoice for that job or getting a written statement by the client that you made the sign would pretty much settle things, but until then, there is nothing stopping them from continuing.
Protect what's yours. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Ernie, using that logic then the next time the police bust a meth lab they should just write a bunch of tickets but leave the meth lab open, right?
I'm not sure that's apples and apple's.....your example involves a substance that causes death.
To expound a little on plagiarism/copying,etc:
I'm not discounting the fact that copying a logo is "a crime."
But, as artists/designers I say we all "borrow" ideas/techniques/things we've seen that "inspire" us from other people's work. Yet, we tell ourselves that it is ok to incorporate these effects/ideas we've seen somewhere else into our "quote/unquote" original design.
To me [although more subtle] this is technically, intellectually dishonest....and technically intellectual theft in and of itself.
Do I believe that it is wrong? I don't know... it's something that is accepted amongst the masses.
I think originality is for the most part non-existant. I think we all incorporate "borrowed" ideas from a variety of sources - put them together and call it inspiration and pat ourselves on the backs as being original and creative artisans.
What separates the truly good from the bad artist/designer/signguy is twofold:
1. Technical talent - ability to make something look technically and impressively real.
2. The ability to take all the myriad of intellectually stolen tidbits of ideas we've seen in other people's work over the years and combine them in an arrangement that is pleasing to the eye and then claim them as wholly our own....and then market ourselves as some kind of original genius.
Like paint by numbers...except you get element A from John Doe 1 and element B from Jane Doe 2.
So, technically speaking, what's the difference if we out-and-out reproduce a trademarked logo....or steal a tricky effect off someone else's sign and incorporate it into our own?
Would you consider copying a woodgrain routered effect from someone's HDU project and doing it as a background in your own theft? Probably not...but technically speaking - you've just stolen someone else's mojo.
How about all of us that have "created" our own grain frame device? We openly talk about how we circumvented having to buy the Original Grain Frame...by rigging up a copy based "loosely" on the commercially available product.
Again - we take delight in our "creation", yet technically, we copied someone else idea and hosed the creator of the Grain Frame.
Somewhere, somehow, people have walked along the fading gray edges of crossing the line and pronounced that "this definition" is what clarifies copyright infringement. Basically, the definition comes down to what made someone feel like they could sleep at night.
posted
Copyright law extends to music. How many of you infringe? Ever sing "Happy Birthday to You" in public? You broke the law!
Time Warner owns it and actively enforces the copyright.
As for the grain frame, it is patented. Speaking as someone who has 21 issued patents, Patent law exists to make novel ideas available to the public.
When you get a patent you have the right to sue anyone selling copies of your product for a period of time, after which the patent becomes public domain.
A patent does not even give you the right to sell your patented product. eg If your patent is just an improvement on something someone else has patented, you don't get the right to manufacture your product.
Patent law allows anyone to make a copy of your invention for their own use. In fact you are obligated to teach when you disclose the novel idea of the patent.
ernie
-------------------- Ernie Balch Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 518-885-9899 Posts: 405 | From: Malta, NY | Registered: Jan 2003
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usually in cases like this the merhcandise and the money are confiscated. it is a common thing to have it happen here in NJ, I have heard of convenience stores being rqaided and sports team hats, and other things including the now post 9-11 famous FDNY and NYPD hats that were counterfeited. Whats even funnier is seeing the NYFD hats in those stores, and then people actually buy them. Who is NYFD? New Years Fire Department? Coyright enforcement is more prevalent in the larger metropolitan areas.
Somehow I think that there is more to this story, if they took his machinery and his wallet. Did you get this story from the guy himself (he may be exaggerating) or second hand?
Either way, if you copy a Harley Logo and sell it for money your liable to prosecution, they are one of the biggest enforcers of the copyright laws as pertains to logo reproduction.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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well, this thread was more humerous then I expected
did they take his wallet? OF COURSE NOT!!
did Bill say they did? NO!
(well, Ernie sort of implied that was his perception... & now Harris is following that train of thought)
watch the comma's people...
quote:Originally posted by Bill Wood: The law enforcement people took all his money from his pockets and his wallet,his computer, and his cutter.
I would think "...took all his money from his pockets and his wallet..." just means they took his money! Then comma his computer, and his cutter mentions his confiscated property... but they didn't take his wallet & drivers license.
Also 2 out of 3 Bruce's made me laugh with their replies. Bruce Bowers was the reply most in line with my own thinking.
"...just because a logo is legitimately sold on a CD, it does not give someone the right to sell it" Exactly!
But another Bruce seems to think the fault lies with the logo being offered on CD. To resort to some crazy analogy's again... it should be OK to sell morphine to schoolkids on the street... because someone, somewhere has legally extracted & bottled the stuff?
On the subject of the "Noble Upholding of the Holy Corporate Logo" vs. "kick[ing] a young man out of business" ... I think copyright law, and all it's far reaching implications, carries far more benefits for us in this industry (like in Debra's case) then liabilities.
I also think, while "ignorance is no defense" when it comes to law... some "innocent" mistakes are more deserving of sympathy... but for someone to decide to go into business based solely on selling copyright-protected logos... I have little sympathy if this guy actually was ignorant of the illegality of his actions. Plus I would never believe that anyway.
And Todd... talk about apples & not apples...
apples: selling pure plagerism vs. not apples: creating something (a sign)from inspirations witnessed in life (production techniques)...
or,
apples: selling pure plagerism vs. not apples: not selling, but simply making & using a tool based on seeing that tool for sale
[ December 02, 2006, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
quote:apples: selling pure plagerism vs. not apples: not selling, but simply making & using a tool based on seeing that tool for sale
See how people convince themselves that "borrowing" an idea they see someone else use is somehow not the "pure" form of theft?
So Doug...I have to ask, what's the difference between looking over someone's original "tool" and then purposefully copying it for your own use so you don't have to pay retail for it - - or looking over the logo sign hanging above your shop and copying it entirely but simply placing their name where Island Signs would have appeared?
I've copied and made my own "Grain Frame"....so I'm guilty....but has always given me a kind of icky feeling to have done so.
Like everything in life....people adjust their moral compass to the point where it just weighs heavier on the side that allows them to psychologically accept it without remorse.
{ooooooh....I can tell this is going to be a really good, therapeutic debate
Shades of gray.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Here is a copy & paste of the article, but it does'nt say anything about decals or logos. How did you find out about the men selling decals?
4 arrested in investigation of fake goods at flea market
Winston-Salem police arrested four people Saturday and gave misdemeanor citations to six more as part of an investigation into the sale of counterfeit shoes, CDs and clothes at Cook's Flea Market on North Patterson Avenue.
Police said they seized $1,404 in cash and fake items whose real counterparts are valued at about $79,545.
Among the items seized were 290 pairs of jeans and more than 1,100 CDs and DVDs. All 10 people cited or arrested had tables at the flea market, police said.
The four people arrested were charged with felonies and released on $10,000 unsecured bonds.
-------------------- Steve Trumbo Michael's Signs 2066 1/2 17 th Street Sarasota, Florida Posts: 46 | From: Sarasota, Florida | Registered: Aug 2005
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OK Todd, lets take this Apples:Not Apples thing a little further...
let's say we start to include Oranges!
Not only is the orange NOT an apple.. but also, it IS an Orange!
So, in the case of my above post which you are questioning, the Apple is "selling pure plagerism" (which I think everyone here agrees is illegal)
...Now, what is "not an Apple"? Lots of things are "not an apple" ...hence, for clarification purposes, we now have the introduction of an "Orange"
So, in the case of my above post which you are questioning, What is the Orange?
..well, your post seems to imply that you determined that the Orange I am writing about is: "that "borrowing" an idea... is somehow not the "pure" form of theft"
In reality, a "apples & Oranges" argument only implies that my "Orange" differs from my "Apple" which again was something that "I think everyone here agrees is illegal"
..so Todd, am I saying making your grainfraim (oops.. I meant Grain Frame) is NOT illegal?
NO... I don't claim to know enough to make that statement... (although, the words of someone with 21 times more experience then you or I do not escape me)
quote:Originally posted by E. Balch: As for the grain frame, it is patented. Speaking as someone who has 21 issued patents...
...Patent law allows anyone to make a copy of your invention for their own use.
What I am saying is I don't consider that form of copying, borrowing, or plagerizing to be something that "everyone here agrees is illegal" ...it may be illegal, but if someone got arrested, had their money confiscated, & there grain frame tools confiscated... I would have more sympathy.
in summary
apples: unsympathetically, un excusably black and white vs. not apples: excusable shade of grey
[ December 02, 2006, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
Steve, One of the 4 men involved is a personal friend of mine and actually came here this week to use our vinyl machine to complete a job for a mortgage company. The lady set up in front of him at the Flea Mkt. was the one who called the law enforcement in but she didn't intend for them to get him ... just the other 3 who were selling things they shouldn't ... counterfeit CD's, Jeans and Shoes. She actually came up to my friend and apologized to him last Sunday after it happened on Saturday. I personally think it's wrong to mass-produce any logos to acquire large profits without paying the proper royalties to the manufacturer. It's like I quoted in the very beginning of this post ... the man arrested was producing these vinly logos to be placed on the back rear window of pickup trucks. I suppose everyone who wants to purchase a vinyl-cut logo to be placed on their vehicles is going to have to get written permission. So...I guess the point is ... why buy anymore CD's with corporate logos if you're just going to get in trouble for using them.
-------------------- Bill Wood Bill Wood, Sign Artist 3628 Ogburn Ave., NE Winston-Salem, NC 27105-3752 336-682-5820 Posts: 397 | From: Winston-Salem, NC | Registered: May 2006
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Ray, Actually, I did remove the photo's from her album. However, my husband said, the pictures didn't belong to me. I returned them and told her I could prove they were mine or she could call the owners for proof herself. I also told her not to claim them again, and we left. On another occasion, we were looking on the web at other local sign companies. A sign shop 5 miles from our home, had some of our signs on his site. I called our attorney. His advice was to ask them to cease and desist. I made a phone call to the owner. They were removed.
-------------------- Debra Carr Sign Crafters 502 S. Main Street Hendersonville, NC 28791 Posts: 82 | From: Hendersonville, NC | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Bill Wood: So...I guess the point is ... why buy anymore CD's with corporate logos if you're just going to get in trouble for using them.
If you have been doing this for several years, I would be surprised if you have not seen how frequently you will be asked by authorized corporate entities to use their own logo, & then end up having hours of your own time, or weeks of delay waiting for their own people to spend hours of time trying to locate "whatever the hell vector artwork is" ...so, there will be times when you can use the logo for a 100% legal application... but owning the CD may pay for itself in time saved when the client can't seem to produce the correct artwork.
Also, not to imply to Todd, or anyone, that I consider myself the most law abiding citizen (as most who have read my posts over the years know well)... but if one person wants a custom vehicle graphics job & the project includes a customized version of the auto manufacturer's logo... this may be just as illegal as your friend's situation... but it is thousands of times less likely to incur prosecution.
My mom would say don't do it if it's illegal, but I say weigh the risk. If the risk is low, I'm not above cutting some Yamaha lettering in signgold because I'm doing a $500 graphics job for a client & he wants the name reproduced in a fasion that fits better into the new look I will create for him. Those logo CD's could come in handy for that as well.
[ December 03, 2006, 03:48 AM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
quote:If I mix 3 kinds of peanutbutter together and put it in my own container can I sell it and not get into trouble?
- - Good one!
Doug - I think apples and oranges are too distinctly different in comparing these scenarios.
I'd call them Oranges and Tangerines....
But my point is that ideas and images whether utilized in whole or part are in effect making money off someone else's ingenuity, creativity, etc in place of generating the mojo from within.
It's kind of like needing a new set of tires but not being willing to totally work for it to buy the set yourself.
Instead, the person "borrows" the spare tires from four of his friends cars - and gets to where he needs to go without excerting as much effort as he otherwise would.
Yet, his friends look at his car and have an uneasy feeling that something about the car looks very familiar. Maybe they can't quite put their finger on it...but it's unsettling.
Oh...I do it myself too - quite frequently...I just think it's an interesting twist of the concept of using logos, copyrighted images, etc that most people (including me) have found a way to justify and gloss over....a nitpicky technicality.
This would be a good debate for an ethics class.
Just don't compare apples, oranges, and bananas - I'm not too fond of bananas...hehehe.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Steve Trumbo: Among the items seized were 290 pairs of jeans and more than 1,100 CDs and DVDs. All 10 people cited or arrested had tables at the flea market, police said.
The puzzle is starting to come together. Far from being an bunch of unsuspecting noobs cutting a few logos on a plotter at a flea market, these guys were enthusiastic bootleggers. I found it hard to believe the law would come down so hard, given what information we had at the beginning of this thread. Now it's not surprising.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by E. Balch: "The law enforcement people took all his money from his pockets and his wallet,his computer, and his cutter".
Poor guy, no money, no ID, no drivers license.
He Probably will get a ticket for driving without a license. I wonder who will keep the money and his property?
Seems to me they should have issued a ticket and let a judge fine him or waited till some company sued him for infringement. Of course it is easier to steal money from this kid than chase drug dealers or other criminals that might shoot back.
ernie
I think you are making conclusions when you only have one side of the story from a third person. Do I know what I am talking about? Yes, I do with over 19 years of law enforcement experience. This is speculation, but I would say the sign guy was at the wrong place at the wrong time. My guess is he got caught up in a sweep for counterfeit items that we all see at flea markets such as fake purses, watches, jewlery etc. It would have been difficult to arrest the others and take no action on him. Unfortunately IF the story is as we have heard, I would say unless Law enforcement officials come up with a "victim" he will be OK once everything is said and done. He will be OK and get his equipment and money back.I do not believe he would have the target of the sweep. By the way it is called seizing evidence, not stealing.
posted
But would it considered illegal if the guy did the work for "Donations"? I hope that he is able to afford a good lawyer so he could get his equipment back. A really good lawyer might even turn it around to sue the companies that sold him the CDs and equipment. Kinda like suing the cigarette companies for giving people cancer or McDonald's for serving hot coffee..
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3813 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
even if someone gives copyright protected artwork away for free, the owner of the artwork could consider the recipients of the free artwork, as lost opportunities for a sale.
posted
Russ, I don't guess you've been to a flea market in the last few years... for them to only bust 10 people selling fake merchandise must mean it was just a little po-dunk flea market. They'd bust a lot more people than that at our flea markets around here if they wanted...
And it sounds like to me this guy was just set up at the flea market selling windshield and window decals, the same ones any sign shop that cuts vinyl vehicle graphics gets asked for 100 times a week. I doubt he was in cahoots with all the people selling fake sunglasses, watches and cds.
I don't cut most of these, telling my customers I'm not licensed to do them... but I'll admit, I've cut a Calvin peeing, Dale Earnhardt 3's for race cars, and a Dodge Ram/Chevy/Ford logo for a back window a few times.
I'd like to know which shops here have not cut something that was trademarked at some point. I bet there wouldn't be one, even if you won't admit it... if you've cut a Chevy logo to go on a Chevy racecar, you've broken the law. If you've cut new Camaro lettering to go on a freshly repainted car, you've broken the law.
I'm not gonna sit here and say sitting at a flea market selling John Deere decals is the smartest thing in the world to do.... but I SURE don't think it's worthy of losing money and equipment over. They should have given him a warning, shut him down and told him not to come back selling those items.
When John Deere sells tractors for $150,000 a pop, how is some dude selling about ten 5 dollars decals on a Saturday gonna hurt them? They should be glad for all the advertisement they get and PAY him to cut those decals for people... if there was someone at every flea market selling my business name to go on thousands of vehicles... I'd be happy about it.
Oh, yeah... and I've made several Ruger and Browning logos for police officers in our area... guess they should have arrested me and confiscated them... then they wouldn't have had to pay for them.
[ December 03, 2006, 02:14 AM: Message edited by: Jon Jantz ]
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Jason, You can mix 3 brands and sell it as your own. They are the ingredients, not the end product. Just don't market it with their logos without getting permissions first.
While you guys debate the foundations of reinventing fruit salad...
Signs have ingridients as well. Design, materials use and installation. Combining them CAN result in an original product.
That's the rub on this topic. It's not so much about the end result as the list of ingredients. Using copyrighted is why this this guy got busted. Using Debra's work to promote themselves is why the other companies were in the wrong.
There's a fine line between inspiration and theft. Rapid
[ December 03, 2006, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Ray Rheaume ]
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Okay, so there's some "MAGIC" number about how many times you can break the law making bootleg decals. Can somebody explain what that number is?
Jon, large companies don't look at it as a lost revenue thing and they certainly don't see it as "FREE ADVERTISING" Corporations spend a fortune creating brand identity, researching exactly how and where they want their brand displayed to create an image. Anything outside that is hurting the image they are trying to make and is also you (or whoever) stealing from that investment in that image. That's why its illegal.
How come everybody loves to throw out that "FREE ADVERTISING" line when it comes to giving away somebody else's property...but let some redneck show up in your shop telling you he'll give you "FREE ADVERTISING" on his racecar for a discount and all hell breaks loose.
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
My point was, there is usually more to a story, and the outcome is easier to understand as more of the story becomes available. It's easy to get worked up over something when limited facts are available. Fiction writers use this technique all the time to create suspense.
I had a hard time believing someone would get charged with a felony for making a few logos on a plotter, unless they had been warned previously to stop doing it. On the other hand, trafficing in bootlegged music and movies is to go up against industries that are very interested in protecting their copyrighted material. While still hard to believe, I can at least understand cops showing up for that. I can also imagine someone saying, "Well, if you're gonna bust us for the movies, why not bust that vinyl guy? He is copying stuff too."
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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well, this thread was more humerous then I expected ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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did Bill say they did? NO! 
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