posted
I was trying to print out a vector object that has pure yellow and bright purple. All I get are somewhat muddy colors, like clothes washed in hard water for too long. I am curious what profiles or settings I could change to get brighter colors. I use the profile GCVP Calendar with OraCal651 for almost everything.
Right now I have created boxes...one with Cyan, one with Magenta, one with yellow, one with black, one with Red and one with blue and am trying different profiles to see which give me the brightest colors. I am going thru the profiles one by one....this could take a while.
Any solutions or advice?
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
I'm having colour "issues" right now too Laura. Although I never had them before about a month ago. If you are using VersaWorks make sure you have the correct media type in under the Quality settings. I use PGCT premium Cast Vinyl (ESM) the most because I use a lot of 3M Controltac. The Color Management preset is Sign & Display. Send your files as .eps as they are brighter than .tiffs. And good Luck. As I say until a couple weeks ago I was so happy with this printer I would have slept with it, these last couple weeks I'm ready to pitch it out into the street. Right now I am trying to match colours on a previous wrap that hit the side of the shop door. I have a purple that looks so pink it looks like its been slapped. So I am currently re ripping and playing with adjustments myself.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Laura, We have all 6 of the PANTONE formula guide color chips. Comes in a nice case. Google search "pantone book" and get your best price.
In CorelX3 those paletes are installed.
Select your vector lines, one at a time, and select the color you need from the book and then find it on the palete bar and click it. One by one, fill your shapes with colors the same way. YOU WILL GET AN EXACT MATCH when printing.
posted
I know what you mean, Laura, but after you get the right profile figured for your vinyl, I would ditto what Dave said about following a Pantone color guide.
Using Corel X3, we are using cmyk formulas and we printed all the Pantone colors and laminated them with the profiles matching the vinyl we use. That way we can get the yellows and reds that we were having trouble getting.
Mike O'Neal helped us with the printing of the Pantone colors and I have them on the wall and in a flip book that I can take outside to match existing colors. It really helps you to get the brightest colors you desire.
That being said, I would suggest to the vinyl manufacturers to try to create the whitest film possible instead of the slightly gray white we're getting now. This should yield an even brighter job.
It's similar to using 1 shot paints. If you want a bright color that needs to be mixed with white, you're better off using "polar white" than regular "white, because polar white is whiter with less gray.
Eventually you'll get it, but it'll probably take a while to experiment with your software and films to get everything coordinated. Good luck, you'll get there.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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Yeah well,that's the system I've been using. What happens is yes, you find your colour on the PMS colour chart. You find as close as possible on your printed and laminated CMYK colour chart, then you change your files so the colours print correctly. Time consuming but yes it works. Then you get a new download from Roland, and then you have to make a new CMYK colour chart and do the whole process over again if you have to reprint something. Not to mention if you have no small colour proof that you kept (from every job) you have to go back to the vehicle, wherever it may be, with your trusty little PMS chart and get the colours, again. Since last year at this time I've had a bus & a van in accidents and one van wrap that needs the window perf replaced. I'm ready to scream.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I have found that CMYK gives better colour definition. If you are trying to get really clean colours you can use only CMY, the K is just black. Personally I have found RGB to be slightly muddy on the Versacamm. The other thing worth noting is that if you are using an image provided by someone else you need to make sure that you are printing it in the colour format that is was generated. A CMYK image ripped in RGB will look very dull. It is definately best to print out sample booklets for each media, it does save a lot of mucking around later.
I hope my two cents worth helps in some small way.
-------------------- Anne McDonald 17 Karnak Crescent Russley Christchurch 8042 New Zealand
"I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure" Posts: 877 | From: Christchurch | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Hold it hold it hold it. I gotta get this straight 'cause right now I'm having some real colour issues. The RGB colours are based on your eye perception, its the light factor, we can see more colours than you can produce because light factors into it. Does it not? I mean, I agree with Bruce the gamut is wider because light bounces off things in many different manners whereas CMYK is the 4 colours bouncing off the white media. Our monitors are based on the RGB wheel because the monitor produces light. So......does Roland include in its RIP a correction for that? Changes the Red in RGB for instance to percentages of Magenta, Yellow, Cyan and Black? Because otherwise how does a printer that uses only CMYK possibly reproduce the larger range of the RGB wheel? Dave, I have used the Pantone colours provided by Corel. I have had customers say we need such and such PMS colour for our yellow. And I have gone into the file and changed that particular yellow in their file to the PMS colour that Corel provided, but when it came out the other end of the printer it didn't match the yellow of the colour # in the Pantone colour chart. And people say- well just calibrate your monitor to your printer (and scanner) and all will be well with the world. Well that's easier said than done. I have a book here that I was going to spend today reading to help me with that. But if you folks have a better faster way please let me know. (And yes there are courses in how to do this. But they are pricey not to mention I need this NOW. Before I muck up any more prints.)
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I design everything in RBG, because it prints almost exactly as it looks on the screen. When I design in cmyk, the colors on the screen look muddy until you print them out. It doesn't seem to matter whether I export them as RBG or CMYK, they both print the same. I use colorip, so I'm not getting the same updates as you guys I guess.
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Here are a few questions/comments for you having printing problems. Is your software properly color managed/profiled? If you're using Photoshop, Go to "edit>color settings" and see how you have it configured. Also, are you assigning/saving the correct profile to the file when you send to the printer? My rule of thumb is to work in an RGB (Adobe RGB 1998) color space whenever there are raster images involved in a design. When the design is all vectors, I'll work in a CMYK (U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2). As Bruce mentioned, with a RGB workspace, you're working with more color. And, most inkjet printers are capable of reproducing more color than your typical CMYK color gamut. So, you get a more accurate reproduction of color when you design in RGB.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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When I did my color squares I put cyan=100, magenta=100, yellow-100 (needless to say that I was in cmyk color mode). Than I did a red square using R=255,a green using G=255 and a blue using B=255. I still came out with mustard yellow. All this was done in CorelDraw x3
[ October 25, 2006, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
RGB does have a wider color gamut. However, if you are using a printer that only has CMYK, then there are going to be certain colors that are going to be out of gamut. This can result in muddying the colors.
My suggestion is to still work in RGB. However, first convert the image to CMYK and do whatever color correcting that needs to be done. Then reconvert the corrected image back to RGB. You should end up with a superior image that is smaller in size and easier to rip.
posted
Laura, I know very little about Corel's color management, so, hopefully someone a little more knowlegeable will step in. But, how do you have it configured? It's under Tools>Color Management. If it's still set to "default", you're not going to get good results. So, just shooting from the hip, try changing it to optimized for professional output.
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I guess you can say that it's a matter of interpretation Laura
Every device or program on, or connect to your computer reads, interprets and produces color in a unique way. Even though you design a 100% yellow square and send it to your printer, the printer just sees the numbers in the file and prints what it interprets those numbers to be. In your case, it assumes that you want a muddy yellow.
Now, the purpose of embedding an ICC profile into a file is to establish a starting point for color, in which all software and hardware that supports profiling is supposed to work from. So, when you embed an ICC profile into a design, you're basically establishing a fixed point in which your software, monitor and printer can read and interpret as a starting point. From here the supporting devices now know and will make the necessary internal adjustments to meet that target.
I guess if I was to compare color management to anything, it would be like sighting a rifle with a new scope. In theory, you should just be able to slap a scope on the rifle and start shooting targets. But, without properly dialing in or profiling the new sight, you may hit the target, but you will never hit the bullseye.
Check out www.color.org to learn more about profiling.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Laura, you said that you did a red square using R255, G255, B255? That should be printing out a complete blank print (opposite of black or no light).
Try R255 R0 B0, meaning 100% red.
I like to use R191, G14, B43 with my 540, but I'm sure each printer gets slightly different results.
I went to a Roland class where they pushed the idea of working in RGB and you do indeed get more accurate results to what you see on screen.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 911 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'd also suggest downloading a pantone chart file. I built a chart that I size to about 2'x4', and in RGB mode. Save it as an Illustrator file. Print the chart out with all your most widely used profiles and vinyls. This will allow you to use it as a reference point. When you need to hit PMS???, then take out your PMS book, compare it to your printed vinyl charts and find the PMS# on your printout that is closest to the true PMS number. Then I always open up my PMS illustrator file, find that PMS number and check what the RGB values are for it.
Once you know those values, you can use any software as long as you keep those RGB values. You also want to make sure each software program is working in the RGB 1998 color space.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 911 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Laura in CorelX3 go to Tools>Color management> under the settings tab hit Optimized for professional Output (at least that's what I was told) Generic CMYK printer profile and Generic Offset Seperations profile Then click the RGB button at the bottom.
-which doesn't make any sense because then you are in Custom (current settings not saved), but that is what I was told to do-
It hasn't made any difference to my prints but that is what Brian says will fix the problem so try it, maybe it will work for you.
My question to you Glenn is this: If I take a file- convert it to CMYK, colour correct it, return it to RGB to have a smaller file am I going to have to do that for every job? Is there no way to adjust the colours on your screen to match the colours that come out of your printer so that you have a permanent (or semi permanent until you change media) colour correct prints?
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I just printed a sample of the artwork that I was working on yesterday. I set the colors to PMS and printed. Yellow was still mustardie but not as much. Then I changed a setting that Deri suggested over the phone. I changed The COLOR MANAGEMENT PRESET to Sign & Display. It looks like a pure yellow on my next test print.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Man, this stuff is easy people! Maybe I’m just not explaining it properly.
Since I don’t know Corel that well, I can’t help with the specifics, so here are some general statements.
In any good color management system, everything has a profile. You can create your own using specialized software and hardware, or use the ones supplied from the manufacturer.
Below is a graphic that represent a color wheel that I’ll call the ICC color standard. The names and the dots represent what and where each component of the system actually interprets zero on the color wheel when compared to the ICC color standard. As you can see, the printer’s profile is on target. However, all the other elements in the system are off and this is where bad things happen.
If you look at the graphic on the right, you’ll see what happens when you’re making “shot in the dark” adjustments to your design. You may get something that looks good on your monitor, but look where all of the other components of the system end up.
So, you need to get everything on target. Adjustments have to be made to each part of the complete system. The monitor needs to me moved down 1 and over 2. The ink needs to be move up one and over 1, and so on. This is where profiling comes in. Many of the manufacturers have taken the time to make sure that the ICC profile they supply you is designed to make their product hit the center of the ICC target.
Only when you have all the parts of the system on target with the ICC profile, you will get accurate color. This is because each part of the system will recognize the other and will make the necessary adjustments so your system will consistently hit the center of the target.
Oh, if you think classes are expensive, Deri , just look at all the time and materials you’ve wasted on trial and error. When I took a class, it paid for itself within a week.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
That makes sense Brian. I get it. But......when I look in Corel at my Colour Management, hit the advance printer settings, a link colour profile to printer box comes up. My scanner, my little inkjet and my Roland are all in there- and beside each of these is a colour profile column that says DO Not Override. Which suggests to me that all 3 have internal (or downloaded) profiles that the manufacturer has deemed Optimal. The only things that are not in there are my monitor and my camera. Well because the files are not printing out the way they look on the monitor I am assuming that its the monitor I need to change. Correct? And if I need to do that how or where do I do that?
Now you're going to tell me I need a $2500 monitor to do that aren't you?
Did taking the class get you what you were after? When you print does everything come out exactly as you see on your screen?
[ October 25, 2006, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Deri Russell ]
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Bruce, You are right. I did say that...but that wasn't what I meant. I have since edited. I did Red at 100%, Green at 100% and Blue at 100%.
I am printing some black stickers now with the new settings that worked for my yellow vector image. Now the black looks like it is just laying on top of the vinyl.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Hiya Deri, It sounds like you're almost there. I do have a question on the printer profile though. If the printer profile is selected/activated, you should be fine with it. But, if you're getting less than stellar results, I would consider changing it, because I'm getting the impression that it may be overriding the proper profile for your printer. A good CRT isn't that expensive, maybe $500-1000. Or, you can get away with one of those monitor calibrating things for less than a feww hundred dollars. But, how old is your monitor? If it's relatively new, you should be able to use the supplied monitor profile, then all you may need to adjust the Kelvin or color. Most monitors are set and shipped from the factory with settings that mimic the brightness of a TV monitor, which is way too bright. So, if your monitor is adjustable, you should turn it down to it's lowest setting or 5000K. Unfortunately, my monitors only go down to 6500k so I have to settle with that. If it's an older monitor, you may need to fine tune it. If it's good and you have Adobe Gamma, you can create a new profile for your monitor just by using Gamma. You can find Gamma in the windows control panel. After you adjust the kelvin, just follow the instructions. Once you're done, load the profile into Corel's color management.
Good luck,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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You said you print mostly on oracal 651. Oracal makes special vinyl (3951 & 3651) for digital printing. They print beautifully. In a pinch I've used regular 651 but the ink doesn't impregnate the vinyl like the others.
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
hey checkers, all this talk about colours has sparked an old memory, I recall my first colour scanner and the target card (image) that came with the machine
we had to scan the card and then use the calibration tools that were in the scanners software to match the gammet for RGB, the light balance and kelvin so that what we scanned would then print out exactly the same when we hit the go button
just as you were mentioning
I have calibrated my scanners and printers the same way over the years without even remembering why... and then manually adjusted my monitors, as they changed, to show the same colours
that way I knew I would end up with an output as close as possible to what I was looking at... within reason of course, and in the absence of a spectrometer
for designing I have always worked in RGB, and in corel never used the default colour management setting because it makes everything look yuk!
I must admit to finding it unsettling to work in cmyk on the screen now days... I just keep wanting to go back to what was safe comfortable and familiar for me
thanks heaps folks for all this new info I need to get my head around
as always letterheads are the best people to know when you have questions that "just have to be answered yesterday"
cheers gail
-------------------- Gail & Dave Hervey Bay Qld Australia
gail@roadwarriorproducts.com.au
sumtimes ya just gota! Posts: 794 | From: 552 O'Regans Creek Rd Toogoom Qld 4655 Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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oh what a beautiful morning, oh what a wonderful day! ( that's me singin') step shift bump step shift bump (that's me dancin', I'm not a very good dancer) hhhmmmm? ( that's Teak the shop dog turnin' her head and coverin' her eyes)
Brenda Daley (Beaupit) YOU ARE THE BEST!!!!! Many thanks to Brian too for figurin' out it was my monitor! There was a small thing, a little thing, that turned out to be a very large thing in my results! Under Corel Tools>Color Management the settings have to have the arrow going to the monitor from the printer profile clicked as well!! So......its Optimized for professional output-ICC Advanced options - Automatic- Kodak Digital Science CMM- arrows all on to printer profile - separations and from printer to monitor. Once again I salute the Letterhead movement and my fellow letterheads for helping!!!! A couple more little dances and....... Now- excuse me I got a lotta printin' to do.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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