posted
Look for a little help and advise here guys...
We found our self being one of three companies bidding on a fleet deal. To start with it is 25 trailers all 48 footers. The square footage is 924 per trailer.
Question is on a fleet what number would you put on the job, we hate to leave money sitting on the table. I ask around here and have heard everything from 8 to 15 bucks a sq to make and apply the decals..
Can anyone share what they would charge to do the job?... Please??
-------------------- Al Checca Kidney dialysis Pt. wizard42171967@yahoo.com Posts: 261 | From: Latrobe just outside Pittsburgh Pa in Latrobe | Registered: Aug 2001
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""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3489 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Forget about square foot pricing if you want to be in the ballpark with the other bidders. (Unless you have a similar previous job to compare to).
Figure out how many hours it'll take & multiply by your shop rate. Figure out your materials & mark them up to your comfort level, 20%-50% (any more than 50% & you'll likely lose the job). less markup with more identical trailers. You can also add 5-10% misc. for squeegees, cleaners, tape, etc.
Add the 2 together & WA-LA... you have a competitive bid.
Good luck & be sure to "pad" the time & materials a bit to be safe.
If this is something new to you... "pad" more.
-------------------- Michael R. Bendel Bendel Sign Co,. Inc. Sauk Rapids, MN Posts: 913 | From: Sauk Rapids, MN | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
When you say bidding on a fleet deal do you mean the design is done already by someone else and you are bidding just the printing /install? Or do you have the opportunity to dazzle them with some design and possibly lure them into your corner?
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Ink, vinyl and Lam, would come in at just about $1.75/sq.ft. Those trailers are roughly 9'x48' I believe, plus a rear. Al's 924 sq.ft. sounds pretty close.
Fortunately, my installers just don't mess up. If something gets messed up, it will be my fault and during the printing process.
$1617.00 in materials. It would take our 3 installers about 12 hours. 36 hours would cost us nearly $800 in labor. Lamination and trimming would add about 3 more hours to the job. We don't use transfer tape, so no time there.
$2417.00 in costs. Round it up to $2500 to include other various supplies.
We usually don't land the jobs for large fleets of trailers because $7.00/sq.ft. is near starving. We try and land ours at about $8.50/sq.f.t and i'll work with them on the artwork a bit.
Selling price at about $7850, profit coming in at near $5k. Again, we don't get this price if it were 25 trailers. We're just coming off of a 11-bus wrap job that we had to be at $7.50/sq. The key is the installers knocking them out fast. The first one is usually the least profitable and the last, the most. You have to keep them happy and well fed along the way!
25 trailers may very well need to be at about $7.00 in our area. We would shoot to knock them out at a pace of 4 trailers in a span of Monday - Saturday, hoping to make about $3500 in profit per trailer or $14k per week in profit. The shop couldn't afford to halt for this job and I'd take on 2 more guys temporarily to handle our regular accounts.
Again, these jobs don't come along too often, and $hit does happen along the way. The printer would run continuously and I usually start asking myself when is the point that I run and get another machine. I keep the printer running myself which is a fairly easy task.
Overall, it's not easy money. We hold firm at 3 installers permanently full time and have managed months close to $100k with those 3 and myself, but your hair starts to fall out and the days start blending together.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I couldn't contribute because I have never done a full coverage install.
But I hear you about the hair pulling..did a 100 trailer contract a few years ago, made some serious money, kept a few guys busy, but I grew older, greyer, and very tired after the contract was finished.
I'd do it again in a flash though..only all I would do is the production end..hire others to do the insallation end.
Sorry to "bend" you post Al (I'll buy ya a beer next time we get together!! LOL )
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Bruce, Just curious and curious only, we estimated ControlTac with Comply and Lamination at $2.24 per square foot.
We would take that times 4 so $2.24 x 4 = $8.96 S.F. not counting ink which is probably over $100
Our formula and your price at $1.75 x 4 does come out to $7.00 s.f.
The curious part is what the heck are you using? Controltac makes a flawss install and rivits are no problem, thus speeding up the labor to install.
In trying to crunch your numbers, I'm getting lost somwhere...and I don't know where. I don't pay $22 per hour like you said ($800 divided by 36 = $22) and there has to be some down time, like if 3 guys stand around for 15 minutes here or there several days in a row, that adds up.
I didn't see where you added your labor in the job so the end profit would be lower....by at least another 36 hours you pay yourself...maybe that's where I'm getting lost in the numbers.
You don't have to explain, I'm just trying to figure out how to bid projects also, and what we can do to know how much profit we can make and not lose the job to the competition and not go broke, and keep everyone busy kind of thinking.
I think I'll go drinking! Oh shoot, I can't, I'm in the Letterville health club.
Edited for some spelling and graemlin additions!
[ October 13, 2006, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
I spoke with Al briefly about this yesterday and here's what I told him...
Bid the project like you would do any other, maintaining all your margins, and here’s why...
Since it's a large project, you can buy the materials in bulk, which will save you money. Those savings can be passed along to your potential client while maintaining your profit margins.
The same applies to your labor. In order for my company to remain healthy and for me to draw a salary, I need to bill about $250 per day for my labor. In a typical day in my shop, I work 8 hours and I should be able to bill about 6. If you do the math, you’ll see that my “hourly rate” should be about $42.
Now, on a larger project like this, I'll be able to bill for to 90%+ of my time. So, even though I still need to make $250 for a day, my "hourly rate" is now about $33 per hour, just because I'm able to bill for more of my time. And, if I choose to do so, I can pass these savings along to my client too.
A little while back, I bid on a large contract. When I saw the competition's numbers I just about choked. Needless to say, I didn't win that bid. However, I learned a whole lot about the process.
When it comes to projects like this, it’s all about the math. As noted above, productivity and/or efficiency can make a world of difference when you crunch the numbers. On a job like this that can take 20 hours per truck to complete, the $9 per hour savings on labor adds up real quick. If you add a material savings of even 5˘ per square foot on top of that, your bid could be around $5,500 lower, but your profit margin remains the same. And that could make the difference in winning or loosing the contract.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Be buy a huge amount of controltac (48"x50Y) at $404.00 a roll or $.68/sq.ft. Avery Lam & $575.00 (54"x50Y) or $.86/sq.ft. Roland in runs in the area of $.50/sq.ft. After market ink is 1/3 of that at about .16-.18
.68 + .86 + .18 = $1.72/sq.ft.
I don't really count myself as labor towards the job, as I don't really do much except hit "print" for the most part. Yes, I change the rolls etc...but in reality it doesn't take much time. If you load that vinyl nice and straight, it will go hours without me even looking at it. I spend the rest of the time working on design work or doing billing etc...
We buy our vinyl at a good price since we are within walking distance of our supplier and I believe they piggy back us onto one of our competitors pricing who actually do alot more work then us I believe. I do know that they charge others a higher price than us, so we try not to complain.
We had been using the IJ180C for a long time but slipped in on getting a hold of the new comply about 5-6 months back. I believe it's on the market now and may have actually replaced the IJ180C. The adhesive pattern is much smaller and not visible from the face side, making the laminated print very shiny, unlike IJ180 that left that hash pattern visible. I've also heard that the price may be going up
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Dave, we just can't markup this amount of material 4X and actually get jobs of this size. Others appear to, but we're in Southern California where it is dog-eat-dog for the most part.
The labor figures are marked up beyond what our actual installers make to cover payrol taxes/insurance. We look at it differently. Let's say this is a labor only job and our materials costed us $1700 and the rest was just labor. We just did 36 hours worth of work at $170/hr.
If we took materials and marked it up 4x we're sitting on almost $6500 in material. Then throw in 36 hours at the shop rate of $60/hr, you hitting about $8500 for the wrap. Not gonna happen in our market for this many trailers.
Granted, we've had our lucky share. Our first wrap was for $16,000 and we didn't even do the printing. Years down the line we still didn't have a printer and they wanted to re-wrap it identically....we lost the job cause we were'nt even in the neighborhood.
We do alot of install jobs as well....without providing any materials. In those instances, we do have to charge in the neighborhood of $85/hr to makeup for the fact that we are not making money off of materials.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Bruce, We are buying 3M Controltac Plus Graphics Film with Comply Performance IJ180C105450 54" X 150" on page 43 of the ADVANTAGE SIGN SUPPLY catalog which shows $1.12/sf but its gone up to $1.24 sf
So you are getting AVERY? at $0.68s/f wow! but maybe not much longer.
I think Avery is getting sued by 3M over the issue of the patent on the "COMPLY" (which is the little groove system to let air bubbles escape. I think Avery copied the idea and got into trouble, at least the sign supply rep was telling us the last visit.
posted
Yea, who knows. I've actually heard that 3M was supposed to go up. We only use the Avery Lam because it has a better gloss. We can get it slightly cheaper direct, but end up getting it local because of my lack of planning.
I haven't used any avery EZ lately but heard they changed it to skirt the issue.
It appears Oracal is in the game now as well. Instead of X's or O's they look to be using a cobblestone type pattern. I haven't seen it personally other than the ads, but I would assume the liner is still embossed like the other two. Wasn't that the issue at hand over the lawsuit (the embossed liner)?
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 913 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Taylor: Just out of curiosity, what will it cost you (materials and labor + screw-ups) to produce the job?
.
I'm at home and don't have the numbers in front of me but We figured under 2000 bucks but I hate to come in way low on this job leaving money on the table. This is why I ask. We know what our normal pricing should be...
-------------------- Al Checca Kidney dialysis Pt. wizard42171967@yahoo.com Posts: 261 | From: Latrobe just outside Pittsburgh Pa in Latrobe | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Deri Russell: When you say bidding on a fleet deal do you mean the design is done already by someone else and you are bidding just the printing /install? Or do you have the opportunity to dazzle them with some design and possibly lure them into your corner?
Correct the design is already done we just have to make and apply the decals...
-------------------- Al Checca Kidney dialysis Pt. wizard42171967@yahoo.com Posts: 261 | From: Latrobe just outside Pittsburgh Pa in Latrobe | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Bruce Evans: Ink, vinyl and Lam, would come in at just about $1.75/sq.ft. Those trailers are roughly 9'x48' I believe, plus a rear. Al's 924 sq.ft. sounds pretty close.
Fortunately, my installers just don't mess up. If something gets messed up, it will be my fault and during the printing process.
$1617.00 in materials. It would take our 3 installers about 12 hours. 36 hours would cost us nearly $800 in labor. Lamination and trimming would add about 3 more hours to the job. We don't use transfer tape, so no time there.
$2417.00 in costs. Round it up to $2500 to include other various supplies.
We usually don't land the jobs for large fleets of trailers because $7.00/sq.ft. is near starving. We try and land ours at about $8.50/sq.f.t and i'll work with them on the artwork a bit.
Selling price at about $7850, profit coming in at near $5k. Again, we don't get this price if it were 25 trailers. We're just coming off of a 11-bus wrap job that we had to be at $7.50/sq. The key is the installers knocking them out fast. The first one is usually the least profitable and the last, the most. You have to keep them happy and well fed along the way!
25 trailers may very well need to be at about $7.00 in our area. We would shoot to knock them out at a pace of 4 trailers in a span of Monday - Saturday, hoping to make about $3500 in profit per trailer or $14k per week in profit. The shop couldn't afford to halt for this job and I'd take on 2 more guys temporarily to handle our regular accounts.
Again, these jobs don't come along too often, and $hit does happen along the way. The printer would run continuously and I usually start asking myself when is the point that I run and get another machine. I keep the printer running myself which is a fairly easy task.
Overall, it's not easy money. We hold firm at 3 installers permanently full time and have managed months close to $100k with those 3 and myself, but your hair starts to fall out and the days start blending together.
Thanks Bruce, great info.. Just what we wanted to know and your right on about the cost. Thank you for the input.
-------------------- Al Checca Kidney dialysis Pt. wizard42171967@yahoo.com Posts: 261 | From: Latrobe just outside Pittsburgh Pa in Latrobe | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Checkers: I spoke with Al briefly about this yesterday and here's what I told him...
Bid the project like you would do any other, maintaining all your margins, and here’s why...
Since it's a large project, you can buy the materials in bulk, which will save you money. Those savings can be passed along to your potential client while maintaining your profit margins.
The same applies to your labor. In order for my company to remain healthy and for me to draw a salary, I need to bill about $250 per day for my labor. In a typical day in my shop, I work 8 hours and I should be able to bill about 6. If you do the math, you’ll see that my “hourly rate” should be about $42.
Now, on a larger project like this, I'll be able to bill for to 90%+ of my time. So, even though I still need to make $250 for a day, my "hourly rate" is now about $33 per hour, just because I'm able to bill for more of my time. And, if I choose to do so, I can pass these savings along to my client too.
A little while back, I bid on a large contract. When I saw the competition's numbers I just about choked. Needless to say, I didn't win that bid. However, I learned a whole lot about the process.
When it comes to projects like this, it’s all about the math. As noted above, productivity and/or efficiency can make a world of difference when you crunch the numbers. On a job like this that can take 20 hours per truck to complete, the $9 per hour savings on labor adds up real quick. If you add a material savings of even 5˘ per square foot on top of that, your bid could be around $5,500 lower, but your profit margin remains the same. And that could make the difference in winning or loosing the contract.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
I wanted to say thanks Checkers, sometimes it help to run threw things with someone like we did. Very helpful Thanks again..
-------------------- Al Checca Kidney dialysis Pt. wizard42171967@yahoo.com Posts: 261 | From: Latrobe just outside Pittsburgh Pa in Latrobe | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
This isn't going to be the answer you're looking for.
Don't worry about leaving money on the table or what "normal" pricing is. I don't have a clue of just what "normal" pricing is and I doubt anyone here (or elsewhere) does either.
A small local plumbing company asked us and another local sign shop to bid on a full vehicle wrap. I found out a month later that the big had gone to a company located in Florida several hundred miles away from here. I asked for a copy of the quotes that were given. It turns out my competitor and I were within $50 of each other. However, the Florida-based shop was nearly 1/3rd cheaper.
Go figure.
Pricing seems to me to be very "regional" (for lack of a better term). My suggestion is to work your numbers, be honest with yourself about your install time and quote what you think the job is worth and can be happy with.
Whether you win the bid or not, later ask for a copy of all of the quotes. After you get a chance to look at the numbers, you'll have a better idea of your position in the market.
Like I said, I know it really not what you wanted to hear, but I think it will do a better job of getting the answers you really need. I can only tell you that in the end, it was the only thing that helped me and gave me the kind of education necessary to be more competitive and be able to work smarter.
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Taylor: This isn't going to be the answer you're looking for.
Don't worry about leaving money on the table or what "normal" pricing is. I don't have a clue of just what "normal" pricing is and I doubt anyone here (or elsewhere) does either.
A small local plumbing company asked us and another local sign shop to bid on a full vehicle wrap. I found out a month later that the big had gone to a company located in Florida several hundred miles away from here. I asked for a copy of the quotes that were given. It turns out my competitor and I were within $50 of each other. However, the Florida-based shop was nearly 1/3rd cheaper.
Go figure.
Pricing seems to me to be very "regional" (for lack of a better term). My suggestion is to work your numbers, be honest with yourself about your install time and quote what you think the job is worth and can be happy with.
Whether you win the bid or not, later ask for a copy of all of the quotes. After you get a chance to look at the numbers, you'll have a better idea of your position in the market.
Like I said, I know it really not what you wanted to hear, but I think it will do a better job of getting the answers you really need. I can only tell you that in the end, it was the only thing that helped me and gave me the kind of education necessary to be more competitive and be able to work smarter.
.
I can appreciate what your saying Glenn and do understand. You correct with the "regional" pricing I was just trying to get a better feel and this thread did do that. Right with ya man. We will do our own number for sure. Thank you.
-------------------- Al Checca Kidney dialysis Pt. wizard42171967@yahoo.com Posts: 261 | From: Latrobe just outside Pittsburgh Pa in Latrobe | Registered: Aug 2001
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