posted
I think I may be ready to take the plunge and buy a digital printer ... but have no idea where to start.
Hopefully, some of you can suggest manufacturers and models.
Here are some more specifics: --I'm thinking of something in the 3' to 4' range; maybe printer/cutter combo. --I don't want to finance and my budget is $7,500-10,000 or so; I may have to settle on pre-owned. --I'd be using it for exterior work: vehicle graphics, vehicle window film, possibly printing directly on banner stock, etc.
What to you guys think?
Posts: 89 | From: London, KY | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
You will also need a laminator.(not cheap) If its a ink jet type.(most are)
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mike the only problems with pre-owned is that you'd be buying old technology - especially in the inks dept. There are also a lot of maintenance issues with older machines that can cause you to want to pull your hair out, so I've been told. What type printer you need depends on what type of jobs you will be doing. If the bulk of what you're doing is POP and interior stuff then an older inkjet might do the trick but wouldn't work for outside. The resolution isn't even worth looking at anymore; you can't tell the difference between the best res of a printer 5 years ago and a brand new one. If you get a solvent printer you won't *have* to have a laminator unless you want to do vehicle wraps. Sad to say but printers are a computer peripheral and generally the price comes down as the technology goes up. Therefore, wait til you have to have it, make the best buying decision you can and don't look back.
I know you don't want to finance but if you have 7-10k to plunk down, you might want to reconsider your "want to" and just bite the bullet and get a nice one. With that much down any bank will make you a loan on your first choice of printer. If I were buying one today I'd be looking VERY strongly at the Gerber flatbed.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
I would strongly suggest continue saving your money and buy the right tool for the job.
Something to consider is what type of printer you want - Thermal or Inkjet.
A "Thermal" does not require laminating when printing on vinyl. This would eliminate the need for buying a laminator. However, laminating with a Tedlar or simlilar overlaminate will extend the life of the print to a full 5 years or longer. Since Thermal does not necessarily need laminating, you don't have the added labor expense to add to the costs.
An "Inkjet" prints needs to be laminated in order to get any sort of real outdoor durability. But, an Inkjet does offer a wider range of substrates that you can print on besides vinyl (assuming you are using the correct inks).
posted
3' - 4' is ambiguous ... you really want a 52" in irder to print 4x8's
Buy into new technology, otherwise you will be competing against it.
I'll argue with Glenn a little bit on uses of inkjet vs thermal (I have both)
Inkjet will need lamination if it is touched or handled, ie.a vehicle graphic needs to be laminated, a billboard does not. To be a full service digital shop you will require a laminator whether printing with inkjet or thermal.
On the other hand don't get caught up on the hype of needing a RIP, get a good laminator instead.
Plan on budget of 25k or so for a full sized machine & a decent laminator (key word decent) either wait or do some financing, if you have 10-15k cash you are probably better off doing a bank loan for the entire amount and keeping your cash intact.
I happen to like the Roland Versacamm, I've just bought my second machine, the first one has worked out extremely well, but there are other solutions out there. The Mimaki's look good but you will need a wide cutter to go with the printer, I'd question the value of the Mutoh's.
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
Make sure you take into account the need to continually upgrade your computer, software, software training, printer, to stay competitive. I'd imagine having to put aside a couple grand a year to take care of that, or you'll be out of the loop in no time. That's why I sub-out my digital work.
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged |
I'll argue with Glenn a little bit on uses of inkjet vs thermal (I have both)
O
Actually, my comments are based on an article by Emerson Schwartzkopf in SignBusiness Magazine from a few years ago where he did a operational cost analysis between the two formats. It was his opinion that thermal was the more cost effective of the two when it came to printing on vinyl.
posted
I'll argue with Emerson Schwartzkopf a little. I've sold $100K worth of work this year that couldn't have been done with my thermal equipment, & in addition to being profitable, it has made some real valuable new clients aware of all my products, which is translating to increased sales of other profitable sign types.
I'm not sure what Emerson had, but I just have an Edge2 & the large high res prints I output on my Mimaki have rerally opened some doors for my company. on the other hand, my Edge prints every day too, so I would still consider both technologies to be of critical importance for me.
Also, in 18 months, I have not needed ANY upgrade to software, computer, software training, or anything else related to my printer, & I don't foresee needing to upgrade any of the above any time soon.
posted
Dispite many who advised against it. I have an older Encad. I got it with a low price and the inks and heads now are very low priced. It is a very good machine to learn color printing. Yes there is a learning curve that I have barely touched.
I run it with a 2.4 gig and one gig ram.. (i have chocked it a few times). And thatnks to mike i can print out of corel with it.
I did work with it all the time. IT makes me money. If not for the storm I would for sure have a brand new solvent machine by now.
As far as a laminator? this is needed and I do have one.. However,I do a load of work that does not need a full laminator machine. Liquid lams work just fine for the niche I am into. "so far" But Ive done some cold overlay lams by hand.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
I think you're missing my point or I'm not making it clear enough.
The fact is that for those entering the foray of digital printing, thermal printing cost less to get started than ink jet.
Consider this. How long will a laminated inkjet print last compared to an unlaminated thermal print? According to the magazine ads, its about the same - up to 3 years.
Time is money. Which prints faster, thermal or inkjet? In most cases, its thermal. And when you factor in the necessary cost of laminating an inkjet print(laminating material + labor)for outdoor use, thermal is even more cost effective. With thermal, its print, mask and install. With inkjet, its print, laminate, mask and install. Which one requires less labor and less consumables?
Now, lets take a look at Mike's situation. He has about $7k to $10k to spend. Even a cheap laminator such as the Daige is going to cost him about $1300us. A decent laminator will run about $5000us. And if you are going to print with an inkjet, you are going to have to get a laminator.
Yes, both methods do well and are money makers if used properly. I'm just saying that if he has such limited funds and wants to get his feet wet in digital printing, thermal might be the better option to start off with until he builds a large enough market and can afford a good quality printer and laminator like you have.
.
[ October 11, 2006, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
I think you made your point much more clear to me now. I would agree that a thermal solution could be brought in with less funding, & be a great asset in all types of digital printing.
I would also draw attention to the fact that while you addressed Mike's unrealistic budget for either digital system as a reason to suggest thermal...
the other 2 comments he made, regarding his intention to print from 3' to 4' & printing on window film or direct-to-banner printing would be a reason to suggest inkjet.
Anyway, lots of good comment from several realistic points of view... most of which agree to increase the budget.
quote:Originally posted by Mike Estep: Here are some more specifics: --I'm thinking of something in the 3' to 4' range; maybe printer/cutter combo. --I don't want to finance and my budget is $7,500-10,000 or so; I may have to settle on pre-owned. --I'd be using it for exterior work: vehicle graphics, vehicle window film, possibly printing directly on banner stock, etc.
I have toyed with the idea of buying a wide format printer myself. But, I am able to purchase them so reasonably from the big print houses, that I can make more money designing, selling, and installing than I can producing. I do have an Edge II, and that fits my needs for thermal. Thanks guys!
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hiya Mike, Unfortunately, your budget will only allow for 20th century technology. So, you need to consider expanding your budget, making payments, or outsourcing until you can justify the investment. However, following Curtis' advice can get you going and teach you a lot about large format printing in general. But the materials are expensive and are not, IMHO, durable for long term use outdoors. Even with UV lamination, I most of the inkjet printing I did, lasted about a year before there was significant fading. That being said, there's still a big market for interior graphics that you may be able to exploit. At my last job, we did posters, banners, p.o.p. displays and a lot of trade show displays.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would suggest the Summa DC4. 54" prints and contour cuts. And for $20k it is hard to beat the price. Free tech support for ever isn't a bad incentive either. Includes it's own RIP software and will print from Illustrator, Corel, and a couple of others. Holds 8 ribbons so it can run unattended. Sorry for the commercial but I really like ours.
-------------------- TJ Duvall Diamond State Graphics, Inc.
New Castle, DE 19720 Posts: 396 | From: New Castle,Delaware | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
There are some good points being made, but it's becoming clear that $7.5 to $10K just won't get you wide format outdoor printing. A $20K Summa isn't exactly close to his price range.
Like many sign makers, we started with a Gerber Edge. It's the closest thing to cut vinyl and is easy to get used to. That being said, that was in 1995, and the intricacies of raster graphics were totally foreign to us.
When we bought our Encad inkjet printer in 1998, we struggled mightily with huge (for us at the time) raster files, color management, print quality, etc. And laminating is easy once you know how, but it cost us a fortune to learn.
Depending on your familiarity with printing, consider an Edge and outsourcing for larger graphics. Once you are familiar with file set up and color management for wide format printing, you can make the move to wide format inkjet.
In the meantime, do what many are finally catching on to. Outsource digital prints from a reliable supplier (or two) and continue to do what you do best.
I think it's also good to see many are now understanding that their brush and carving skills can be marketed at the high end instead of trying to compete with cheap labor and machines.
(edited for spelling)
[ October 11, 2006, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Paul Luszcz ]
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've had a couple Encad 42" printers and they were fine for indoor stuff and very short term outdoor.
Now I have a 42" HP 5500uvps and it does a beautiful job and is much easier and far less messy to replace inks, etc...than the older encads I had. (42e and 500)
My intended indoor market shifted more to an outdoor market, and I'm just not comfortable using the HP for outdoor stuff.
Should have waited about 6 more months and got the versacam. Six more payments and the HP is paid off. Might keep it, sell it, or trade it, but the versacam is probably my next purchase, unless something better comes along by then. I already have a laminator.
-------------------- Ace Graphics & Printing Camdenton, MO. USA
posted
since when does thermal not need to be laminated? I have an edge as well as inkjet and they both need to be laminated for outdoor durability. The inkjet will last just as long as an edge print, but you'll need to allow it to dry prior to laminating.
A thermal print will not survive the 409 or alcohol swipe test which in my mind....needs to be laminated if your using it outdoors.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 910 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
quote: the materials are expensive and are not, IMHO, durable for long term use outdoors. Even with UV lamination, I most of the inkjet printing I did, lasted about a year before there was significant fading.
I think this point is just about moot. Uless all your work will be outdoor full service signs..
There is a TON of stuff that does not need long term outdoor solutions. There is another TON of stuff that fits short term markets and there is another ton of stuff that fits a brushed on liquid lamination and medium term usage. All of which will make for some very good printer training. IF you have no experience you will need it.
For example. I just did 4 54 x 72 paper panels for a dealer. No need for long term usage nor laminations. Just regular printer paper.. These are just 30 day usage panels. I just did a full color 4x4 banner for the front door of a bizz. Very nice and use a brush on liquid lamination. Took all of an hour to make. I'll make this type of banner every day if I could its easy, and makes money.
As far as expensive materials? This is only a slight factor. The material costs are not the big job killer that so many told me about. Right now ink is so cheap that its not even a factor. Total job costs are much cheaper than vinyl. There is almost no laber involved. No trans paper, no masking tape, no app juices, hardly any clean up.
Speed factor is only a concern if your shop is busy every day all day. Then production will matter. If you print one job or two a day then speed is no factor at all. A good printer runs fine with out eyes all over it.
As far as getting a full solvent.. There are more than a few suppliers who offer exellent wholesale printing at some amazingly low prices.
The real expense is the hidden expenses no one mentions. Such as the learning curve no matter what printer someone gets. The wasted materials you use to train with. And the extra equipment you need. And then a few are propriatory and are limited too their own supplies. That will make your life very frustrating and expensive.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Bruce Evans: since when does thermal not need to be laminated? I have an edge as well as inkjet and they both need to be laminated for outdoor durability. The inkjet will last just as long as an edge print, but you'll need to allow it to dry prior to laminating.
A thermal print will not survive the 409 or alcohol swipe test which in my mind....needs to be laminated if your using it outdoors.
C'mon Bruce. We're talking outdoor durability against fading due to UV exposure and normal wear'n'tear. By your standard, I need to laminate everything I paint in case some knucklehead decides to wipe a sign down with lacquer thinner.
In real world use, I've had unlaminated CMYK Edge prints on vehicles last 4 or 5 years before they needed to be replaced. My own truck is one of them. Fortunately for me (I suppose), no one thought to wipe the truck down with 409, alcohol or lacquer thinner. Just soap and water.
I've got Edge prints on cement trucks that are washed down with a mild acid-based cleaning solution that have lasted better than 2 years before needing to be replaced. That is just as good as the screen printed decals my customer was getting from another company.
posted
Glenn - You really need to get a sol or eco-sol based printer.
Thermal does have its place, yes, there are things that you cannot do with inks, there is a lot to be said for spot colors, I've got a 40k Matan that proves it, but inkjet today isn't what it was 4 years ago. The colors are vibrant and more importantly they are very consistant.
The inks today are UV stable and tougher than they used to be. I don't laminate at all for UV protection, my Roland inks are warranteed for 3 years unlaminated, same as the warrantee on your Gerber foils, if laminated my Roland inks are warranteed for 5 years. In real life I've got unlaminated prints in hi UV locations for 2 years now that are standing up very well. Ask Neil Butler about Gerber foils fading. Some colors will fade regardless if they're foil or inkjet. The biggest challenge for the inks are environmental pollutants, not UV.
You made a statement today that you made 2,000 in one day because of Gerber, I think you made it through your own dilligence in spite of Gerber.
My print speed (draft mode) on Versacamm is 114 sq ft/hr, Print speed on my EX is 402 sq ft/hr (draft mode) print quality in draft mode for either of these machines is better than that of thermal printer at any setting. No ribbon changes needed, what's your labour factor? I believe the newest Edge prints 11.8" on 15" media at about 60 sq ft/hr for 4 color process (not including manual foil changes). You also gotta love throwing away 25% of your vinyl even when everything works perfectly.
Considering that I laminate less than half the time, and when I do print a vehicle graphic (always laminated)on Hi performance and laminate with hi performance laminate, my costs overall are a fraction of what thermal costs are for full color, and inks deliver a superior product, both in terms of print quality and durability. I worry less about laminated inks than I do about unlaminated foils.
A full color 4x8 coroplast is now a 10 minute job from hit print to mounted job, total material cost ~$30cdn including vinyl, inks and 4mm coroplast (no transfer tape needed), What's the time to print & mount with a gerber? what's the cost? And what's the capital costs?
For a shop entering the digital market today, unless they are addressing a specialty niche market that requires spot color, the choices are clearer than ever.
[ October 11, 2006, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: Mike O'Neill ]
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
I have both thermal (Gerber Edge) and InkJet (Roland VersaCamm 54 inch.
I like the VersaCamm way better! . I'm avoiding using the Gerber Edge. Why? 11.8 inch printing sucks! Loading cartriges suck! Taking cartriges out of the Edge and putting the vinyl it into the 15" plotter sucks. It was fun yesterday...not now.
The Edge needs Omega software and a plotter and it needs baby sitting, put in a color, put in another color, put in another color, then put it in the plotter...sucks!
Omega needs a security key...Corel doesn't Corel cost way less, will load on all your computers
The VC needs CorelDraw and Versaworks RIP and a laminator for big stuff. You can sub that out or pair up with a local laminating shop to do your big outdoor projects where lamination would be needed.
For small projects like truck lettering, spray with frog juice. I was told I wouldn't like it, but I sprayed Frog Juice on a truck lettering print today and it looks great!
VC will print full color banners, poster paper, even catalog sheets, tiny stickers with contour cuts at very high resolution (Edge prints sucks with pixels so big you can not do tiny prints)
The VC... start it up, walk away, come back later to a beautiful print 48" wide with contour cutting already done. JUST SET IT AND FORGET IT!
The VC costs $550 month on a lease with a $1.00 buy out at the end of the lease (G.E. Leasing)
IF YOU WANT TO TRY THERMAL...BUY MY EDGE! $1000 BUCKS AND ALL THE FOILS I HAVE! You can also have my SIGNMAKER 4b for FREE...it still works. Come and get it out of my life!
(sorry, Omega software and security key does not come with the deal as I need it to run the Gerber Odyssey plotter.
[ October 11, 2006, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
BTW, I printed gold & silver medal foil onto some black vinyl today for a nearby college (1500 piece order). Can any of you tell me which inkjet printer I should have had to produce that order since Gerber is so terrible?
posted
BTW, I printed a full cargo trailer wrap, 12 x7 foot, four foot wide panels no seams as the panels lined up to the aluminum pannels on the trailer.
Sub out those stickers with silver foil...or turn it down....there's vehicle wraps out there worth more and way more fun than stickers!
posted
For metallics on my versacamm, I simply print the black onto hp metallic vinyl and contour cut. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind...just thought I'd let you know that it can be done very easily.
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
Not one offer yet to take my Gerber Edge 1 with 35 foils (4 brand new) and Signmaker 4B for $1000.00
I wonder why?
Well I for one can give you one reason, if my memory is correct you did initially post something about the head being blown or having only half the print area Dave.
Now correct me if I am wrong.
Not to mention most people read this board and make decisions based on which way the "heard" is going. Not so much actually using the vacant brain cells to "think" and make educated decision based on what would be best for them.
You've already stated many times Dave with all due respect that you try "not" to use your edge. That right there tells me your advice is biased.
Both machines have their pros and cons and Glenn makes extremely concrete and valid points based on his own experience, use and knowledge.
And Doug of course you'd argue with Emerson Schwartzkopf , hell I bet you argue with yourself on most days
I really love having a machine that IS in fact versatile and can print in areas that the main stream can't. I don't really care if you buy one or not. I prefer you don't actually.
[ October 12, 2006, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
I don't know why either. Its a great deal for anyone looking to get their feet wet in the digital printing arena.
Personally, I think the problems is that you have it priced too low. At that price, my first thought was to wonder what was wrong with it. I suspect that if you were to market it at $3000-4000, you'd might get a better response. I know its counter-intuitive, but that has been my experience.
***
Suelynn,
I realize that metallic vinyl can be printed. The problem is that the customer wanted the mirror gold finish for the graphic on a flat black background and that the print had to be scratch resistant.
How would you handle this with your inkjet printer?
posted
Dave, I'd give you a thousand dollars for it, but don't have time to come to Illinois to get it... wish you were coming to the Sign Circus... I'd take it off your hands in a heartbeat.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
There's a market and use for both thermal and inkjet. I know I can make money with both technologies. So, it's just a matter preference with what you want to sell. In the big picture of the sign business, you'll need to offer some sort of large format digital. Whether you choose to do it in house or outsource is up to you.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks to everyone for taking the time to reply; a lot of interesting discussion here.
I need to do a lot more research, but I must say the VersaCAMM is sounding pretty good right now because my main focus will be vehicle graphics and exterior banners/graphics. A friend of mine has a VC. I'm not sure if it's the 300 or the 540. Maybe we can work out a deal for me to have use of his until I get my feet wet and have enough time to save more money to purchase my own.
[ October 12, 2006, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Mike Estep ]
Posts: 89 | From: London, KY | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Checkers, You got first rights to purchase the machine.
I'll run some test prints. If I suspect there is anything wrong, I will call you and save you the trip.
As mentioned, the ONLY thing I have noticed is that we had an error on start up ocassionally. Every time you turn on the Edge, it goes through a set up to ajust the foil cartrige holder to make sure it is in the proper position. Sometimes it gets stuck. A little gentle prodding gets it working again.
So I just left the Edge on.
Since then, the power has gone out in the shop numerous times, and when the power has come back on, the Edge has come back on with no problem.
The price is right for the risk you run. Even if something does go bad, its probably only a $2000 fix, bringing it up to what it should be worth.
I just don't have the time, money or desire to send the unit to Gerber to have them go through it to find potential problems.
I won't sell a piece of equipment that isn't working properly at the time you pick it up. After that, you are on your own.
posted
Glenn, have to disagree. Entry level digital is more cost effective with thermal?? What's a new Edge and Gerber plotter package going for these days? I would have to guess in the area of $20k, minimum (new machinery). A 54" Versacamm goes for the same price. Vinyl/foil prices are fixed with the edge. Even if you run a 1-color spot color run, your materials are still going to run more than a 4-color process print of an inkjet. the inkjet is rated 3 years unlaminated and roughly the same for an edge print. In both instances, some prints will last longer and some will die shorter. So we'll call that even. Now your left with a machine that prints 11.8" on strictly perforated material. The inkjet can print on a vinyl as small as a scrap of vinyl. The inkjet will print a much better looking print, which nobody will dispute. Throw in the abilty to print and cut, all in one operation.
Help me out here. I've yet to see how thermal has an advantage at the entry level.
Don't get me wrong, we use our Edge every day. I love the ability to control my LPI patterns and other features of the Edge such as specialty materials.
The simple fact is, I think that users who have both machines will all conclude, inkjet has the advantage as a whole, whether it be entry level, or full scale.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 910 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic