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I've been looking for help recently, mainly by word of mouth. I had a customer suggest that I post an ad on the Michigan Job Works website which is part of Michigan unemployment.
I have been bombarded with resume....many from over qualified individuals. It seems that the vast majority of people seeking employment here are laid off from design jobs or other jobs that are directly related to the auto industry.... manual illustrations, 2D and 3D renderings, technical drawings, screenprinting decals, etc.
Today I had a lady e-mail her resume and it was the same as the others but in her email she said that she had put herself thru college by, hand lettering signs and vehicles. No sign software knowledge though. Hummm!!! Worth a call to me. I ask her how much she was looking to get an hour. "$10-12.00 an hour" she says. A little much for someone that doesn't know the software but I can pay that. I really need more help in the production area right now anyway.
I continue to talk with her and it seems that she made $61,000 last year. That's about $30.00 an hour. I tell her that I don't want to spend time training someone only to find out that they were using me to fill in until they could find a much better paying job in their line of work.
I had another gentleman stop in today, all dressed up in suit, tie and starched shirt, asking if I was the one that had posted the ad, as he hands be printed copy of the ad and his resume. It seems that he was working for this big auto graphics place that is about 1/2 hr from here and he got laid off.
This seems to be the norm. Way too many people in our area hurting financially .
[ September 28, 2006, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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At least you have some people with experience showing up. I posted an ad a few weeks ago for a graphic designer and production person. Wow....I could not believe people! I realize it's a trade that is should I say "a little laid back". However, I had people coming for interviews in torn clothing , torn photo albums with pictures of their pets in the portfolio! Boy oh boy...things have changes since I hammered the pavement for a job! Not to mention that even though my ad was very specific...I had people from financing that can draw a bit show up...needle pointers....etc! Thank god I was able to pick out two people that are working out very well!
-------------------- Ottawa Custom Signs Stittsville, Ontario Posts: 346 | From: Stittsville, ON | Registered: Dec 1998
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...If the gal who can HAND LETTER really can, hire her. Having a skilled brush person in your shop can open up work opportunities that you wouldn't be able to touch otherwise. She can eventually learn how to stick vinyl down, and work a puter. Give her a test though, she may not be so good at it. $10 - $12 an hour is way cheap for a good sign writer. Maybe she is desperate for a job...
quote:Originally posted by Laura Butler: I tell her that I don't want to spend time training someone only to find out that they were using me to fill in until they could find a much better paying job in their line of work.
It seems like for $10-$12 an hour, just about anybody with any ability would be using you to fill in until they could find a better job - regardless of their level of experience. That is not a career wage. If you want good, talented people to stick around, you have to give them a reason. If you're worried about hiring people who are over-qualified, just start interviewing the people with the worst resumes.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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Laura, I'd be looking at it from the other side of the coin...
A plethora of highly skilled people banging at your door, I'd be looking to hire & learn from them as much as I can until they leave, and even then who knows??
The auto industry might never recover in these peoples working careers, $30 per hour jobs arent as plentiful as they once were and your 'stepping stone' job might just fit the bill for some well educated and well trained person to finish their career with.
[ September 29, 2006, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Mike O'Neill ]
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
I agree with you Mike. Skilled people will train quicker and be more productive once they are trained.
Knowing how to run "sign software" wouldn't seem to be nearly as important as knowing common design software like Corel or Illustrator/Photoshop. Someone who already knows one package isn't going to have too much trouble learning something new.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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Just be cautious when hiring from the Auto Worker pool....Being from a huge auto worker town like you, I know a lot of Auto Workers personally. I don't want to paint them all with the same brush, but let's just say that there are many of them that look for every opportunity to "lean on a broom handle" if you know what I mean.
One layed off GM guy I know had been layed off for about 6 months or more, drawing about 90% of his regular pay. We were sitting at our kids baseball game this spring and he was talking about how "po'd he was that GM had called him BACK to work and ONLY gave him 2 weeks notice.
"I had plans on going up to the cottage that week!", he exclaimed. And he was seriously plotting how he could get extra time before returning.
He was disgruntled to think that his employer who had been paying him wages NOT to work for several months (wages many people won't earn their entire lives) would expect him to actually WORK for his money.
Trust me, this is NOT an isolated incident.
There are great people with excellent work ethics in the auto industry, don't get me wrong....but there is grisley unionized mindset that permeates that industry that you must be careful not to allow into your shop. Just be very picky....is all I'm saying.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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I agree with Todd, not a great pool to draw from. I just love dealing with the UAW types when ordering signs for their sideline businesses. A more cheaper bunch of asses you will never find.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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We hired Roy almost a dozen years ago. He retired from Rohm & Hass and needed to supliment his income. He has never missed a day or been late. He has some mannerisms that reflect the years in a big union shop though. He's young enough to work and old enough to not be overly ambitious. I find that I'd want to hire from that pool again. He's my friend.
Look for manual dexterity and enough organization to get things in order. If this person had it all, they'd have their own business. Find their blind spot and leave it alone. Capitilize on what they do well.
Roy was hired to do the computer stuff. He had a background in CAD drawing. I saw him fumbling with the graphics programs in a manner that didn't set me at ease. I did discover that I could give him a plan and he could build most anything. He works well with tools and is a great team player. I can set him on a task and he's like a mule, focused and unmovable till it's done.
Find a senior that you enjoy.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Same challenge in western Michigan. One thing about the MTB website is the cover letter that is generated automatically by sending a resume. To me, if they do not have the ambition to compose their own cover letter, they wind up a victim of the "delete" button.
I agree with WR, if in fact they can paint, 10 bux an hour is a bargain for you. I'd start at $10, and let them show you they are worth more.
I also agree with the others here. Mike, great advise, and Rick Sacks too.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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I couldn't follow this thread until now as our electricity went out at 1:30pm yesterday all over this end of town. Two hours later and it still wasn't on so I went home to nurse a muscle spasm in my back.
Some of you think that $10-12 an hour is cheap but you don't know what the going rate is here in my area. $10-12 is golden here. Down closer to Detroit, people would be getting $10-14 to start. I have been talking with graphics people that would start for $7-8.00. When I do hire, I tell the new employee that there will be a 30, 60 and 90 day evaluation. I usally give raises at either 30 or 90 days or even both.
As far as painting and hand lettering, in 6 years here, I have only been asked a half dozen or so times if we handletter. If an employee had that capability (and was good), I would certainly push it.
There is only one old guy outside of town that does it and is really, really good at lettering, murals, etc. If I ever have a meet, I have been working on him to come. He's not interested in coming to a meet or taking on an apprentice.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill: I don't want to paint them all with the same brush, but...
If you are going to make a hasty generalization, and then temper it with exceptions, what is the point of bringing it up in the first place? If you have a prejudice, why not just own it? In every industry there are varying degrees of work ethic. It makes sense for an employer to be careful, regardless of what industry a prospective employee comes from.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:If you have a prejudice, why not just own it?
Russ - it's not a *prejudice*...just my observations living in one of the largest auto towns in the nation all my life.
Like I said, they certainly all are not like that, but I've seen many more examples of poor attitude than of positive from these folks.
My father-in-law and brother-in-law both worked for GM, and retired from GM.
My F-law never missed a day of work that he truly wasn't ill and worked his gnads off for GM.
My b-in-law did his job...but watched a lot of tv and took a lot of naps. He has a pic on his rec-room wall of him sleeping in a corner at work.
It's not really their fault. GM has bowed to the union and gives them waaaaay too much.
For instance, my neighbor works at GM and he's been laid off for months. Well, as long as he sits and watches TV in the union negotiated jobs bank all day....he gets paid 90+% of his normal wage...which is pretty respectable given the simplistic non-educational tasks he performs.
Or...he can go to college while he's laid off, collect 90+% of his wage AND GM will pay for his schooling. How that saves GM any money over just working them I'll never know.
But the point is...even given these bennies - THEY STILL WHINE AND COMPLAIN.
How is saying most have this attitude, but not all a statement that causes you conflict?
It's simply the truth.
My f-in law, hard working GM employee would work out at the spa three times a week after work. One of the afternoon shift foreman would show up at the spa and work out 3 days a week at his spa, and the other two at a spa across town on GM time. He did this for months, wasting no less than 3 hours of company time a day.
Finally, my f-in law told his brother who was a plant supervisor and they nailed the guy - well, thaat is they scolded him and told him not to do that any more - they didn't fire him of course.
He was good till my f-in law's brother retired and then he began his workout routine again.
How many stories can I share? There's lots of them. Remember that when you look at the price tag of a new car.
By-the-way....in spite of my "prejudice" I buy GM cars....I have a Buick LeSabre, Chevy Crew Cab, bought my son a used Pontiac Bonneville, and my daughter a new Chevy Cobalt. So I guess I can't be too "prejudiced."
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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$10-12.00 an hour is the maximum that I can afford to pay right now. I lost 65% of my business because of the flood and now we are going into our slow season. Its a CATCH 22. I need to hire to get more work out so that I can get more money in. But I can't afford to pay more because money isn't come in.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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No disrespect intended, but I just don't believe that's really the way it is. I believe a "catch 22" is usually in the mind.
Like they say, "it takes money to make money". If you believe in your business, invest in it, by hiring GOOD people & paying them enough to stay & to get better.
but again, "it takes money to make money"
...If you don't have savings, or a line of credit... you can practically forget about growth, unless you really want to gamble everything you already have... or take it real slow, with one of the first steps being get a line of credit.
If you DO have a line of credit, then at least the choice is yours. I think you have to decide if you want to cut expenses, reorganize & regroup to forge ahead as a smaller operation that doesn't need more jobs or money... OR you decide to grow.
IF you want to grow, the "catch 22" excuse is crippling you, so get over that hurdle first ...or re-examine your decision.
[ September 30, 2006, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
"Catch-22 is a term, popularized by Joseph Heller's novel Catch-22, describing a general situation in which an individual has to accomplish two actions which are mutually dependent on the other action being completed first.
A familiar example of this circumstance occurs in the context of job searching. In moving from school to a career, one may encounter a Catch-22 where one cannot get a job without work experience, but one cannot gain experience without a job.
Years ago we bought a van and drove to Florida, When we came back, I knew that I needed a truck instead of a van so I started watching the newspapaer ads. I found an ad for a truck that seemed like what I needed. I called the seller and after a bunch of questions asked why they were selling the van. She said that she needed a van instead of a truck. I told her my dilema and we both laughed. It turns out that we both wanted the same amount for our vehicles.
It also turns out that we both had loans from the same bank. We met each other at the bank to get loans and exchange titles. The loans officer was very new at this and couldn't solve our dilema. I couldn't buy her vehicle until I sold mine. And of course, she couldn't by mine until she sold hers. CATCH 22.
The young loan officer sat there befuddled trying to figure this out. Finally a senior loan officer told her to just have us both sign and transfer titles.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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You are looking for a production person who can design at a burger flipper price. Unless you yourself want to work 14-16 hour days, you are gonna have to step out on a limb. I feel your catch 22 senario. But Doug has a great point which I needed to read as well. Good luck!
Todd & Russ, you may have to start your own thread. However, I think you both have some valid points. I have some union friends who would never last 10 minutes in a small business. Union mentality won't grow a business.
But, again, there are some hard working union people. Those are the people who retire with a buyout, work hard, and start a small business to pay their health insurance....and do very well.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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"Catch-22 is a term, popularized by Joseph Heller's novel Catch-22, describing a general situation in which an individual has to accomplish two actions which are mutually dependent on the other action being completed first."
I'm quite familiar with the term & the book. It's not entirely unlike another well known term "checkmate"
The game of chess, unlike the game of life, ends before death, where the opponent is basically allowed to accept no other choice but to give up.
In life, we can play to the death.
but in business, I will concede, if you are in a catch22... you are free to give up.
[ September 30, 2006, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
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Laura, I don't see it as a real catch 22. You have said there are skilled people willing to work for the $10-$12. Hiring someone should eventually result in more work being turned out. The problem I see is the attachment of the requirement that the person you hire must be satisfied with that wage, and not leave at some point in the future. I think, given the right person of course, you and the prospective employee can both benefit. As you become more profitable, you may choose to share some of that with your employee. They may just choose to stick around.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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In a pinch,,,temp work services have always been my choice. It may take a few tries but it eventually works out.. You may be surprised. We had a girl that went worked for several of us part time hired from a temp service. She wanted to be home for kids from school. Her only request.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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A lot of noteworthy issues raised in this thread! So I'd like to put in my two cents. On the issue of union help I think that the stereotypical union worker is just skating along. But not all are typical. The first sign shop I worked in was a union shop in Rhode Island .An excellent sign shop quality wise. That is to say they made top notch custom signs, and you had time to do your best work as one union rule was that the company could not rush the employees. Surprisingly that rule did benefit the company in the end product. But then you had guys who although were excellent craftsmen and taught me well were not very ambitious workers. With out breaking a sweat I would build 5 - 1 signs compared with the man that mentored me. Others know if you stay bussy the day goes buy quicker. You can weed out slackers fairly quickly if you watch them closely in the beginning! As far as a $60,000.00 a year person staying long term. Well as long as they make you money while they are there everyone wins. Signs aren't rocket science so a competent person shouldn't have all that long a learning curve. Carrying people during slow times only to loose them when things pick up can be despairing but if you really need the help now it may be worth the risk. $10-$12 per hour that wouldn't be great for new england but I do see $8 and $9 an hour jobs in the paper. You probably know what the going rate is in your area .I would recommend you offer a little more if you want quality long term employees . After all when customers nickle and dime you they go to the bottom of the priority list don't they . Temps don't sound like a good choice to me unless you have someone to baby sit them but then you never know in a temp to hire situation you could find the perfect fit. How personal running a business can get when peoples futures are at stake. Although the employee employer relationship is not a marriage it is a commitment for both sides and requires give and take . Good luck I hope you find someone who will become a valuable asset to you company.
I can understand your predicament. I've been going through pretty much the same thing.
In Michigan, $10-12 per hour may be chump change. I don't know. However, in my neck of the woods $8-10 is considered a decent wage.
Something you may want to consider is offering a base wage plus a percentage of what they produce. That way, if business does get slow, you're not stuck paying a wage you can't afford. However, if you have the right person and a sufficient amount of work is coming in, then he/she should be able to generate enough product to justify additional pay.
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Around here you'll be hard pressed to find a job in a sign shop for $10-12/hr. If you do, it will be a hard job like welding all day or installing, not doing vinyl and print work. Graphic designers who have a degree are hard pressed to find a job for $10/hr.
It depends on the area. In the end, it all evens out due to the different taxes and whatnot.
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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If the "overqualified" applicants are willing to work for $10-$12/hr why deny them the chance before ever meeting with them? if your area is as you say it is, they already know that $10-$12/hr is about the best they can expect.
I remember when I was job hunting. I was still living in St Louis but trying to move out here to AZ. I actually hopped on a plane and flew out after lining up 20 job interviews for a solid week. Lots of jobs available and the employee pool here sucks but every one of those interviewers told me I was overqualified and wouldn't hire me even though I was more than willing to accept the wage.
That's when I decided starting my own business was my only option. Can't join 'em? Go into direct competition with 'em!
Oh that reminds me. Today is my business's 7 year anniversary!! I'm still here!... and half those other guys that interviewed me are NOT!
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Laura, I dont know about your area but does your Unemployment office offer retraining/ Career training programs. They have one here in Colorado and the way it works is the State will pay for 1/2 of their wages for a specific amount of time.(One of our employees had a full amount alotted to him and it payed for 1300 hours) That way it allows you the time to get your business out of the Catch22 and for your employee to make a livable wage.
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in which an individual has to accomplish two actions which are mutually dependent on the other action being completed first. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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