I have a sister who is into horses. She and I live several miles apart, and over the years {many} she has gone her way, and I, mine. We see each other rarely because of no particular reasons other than we have different lifestyles. My brother in law,[her husband} is a very sweet man, and he and I get along as good as or better than my sister. He is a retired machinist, who has become a "gentleman farmer". He raises cattle and sells the meat. I have purchased several 1/2s over the years, and paid whatever he requested without any question regarding the fact that I was getting a fair deal.{ie} same price that any other customer would pay. No special favors.
Well, here's my delema. Sister has asked me to letter her newly painted horse trailer. What do I charge her?
(1) I went to her barn and took digital pictures of the trailer. (2) Designed a new layout with three colors of layered vinyl, including drop shadow effect. (3) putting large red letters on rear dropgate per {her instructions} "CAUTION ARABIAN HORSES" in a not very creative arch to follow the arch of the dropgate. (4) I get to clean the trailer before applying graphics. (5) project from start to finish will involve over 8 hours of my time, plus cost of 80 sq. ft. of High Performance vinyl.
The last time this trailer was lettered, my sister and one of my nephews lettered it with vinyl letters they purchased through a farm supply outlet, and did the rear letters by cutting out letters on their kitchen table from red contact paper
What would you do??
Charge her retail price? Discount for family member? Give it as a gift?
I REALLY need some sage advise. I do NOT want to get into any thing that would cause my sister to think that I am taking advantage of her. But just like all of you, I feed my family with the lettering and signs I create.
-------------------- Bob Cole American Sign Company 14163 Akron Canfield Rd. Berlin Center, Ohio 44401
A.K.A. Vinylman® Posts: 575 | From: Berlin Center, Ohio, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
That depends on how often they will require your services Bob. If they would be coming to you once every 6 months with a job I would charge them regular price. If they come once every 2 years I would give them a family discount. But if this is a once in a lifetime thing I would just give it to them. I do work on a regular basis with 2 of my brother in laws. And I generally charge them regular price. There has been one exception. But if there is a problem everything is on board, no hassles. But I have also made gift residential signs for my sisters and my husbands siblings. I think of it as advertising and it is. I think they all appreciate how much work goes in to them.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
When it comes right down to it, I think there is always a range in price that a job can be done ... while still making a profit. Just depends on the percentage of profit made.
I would price this job at the lower end of the scale, and still make a profit for yourself on the job.
I would indicate on their invoice/proposal what the job could have been (the higher price) and note to them on there that they are getting a special discounted rate.
Whether they go for it at that point or not is in their court.
Good Luck! ~nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
I try to make a profit on every job I do. Family and friends included. I wont go out of my way to make a huge profit when I do work for them but I do want my time compensated for. They understand and dont ever quibble about the price. I'm just in the works of completing a logo package for my sister. She's an interior designer (red flags there) and unbelievably picky! Charged her full price for it because we allll know what interior designers are like!!
Stevo
-------------------- Stevo Design Illustration Logos Sign Design Clip Art www.stevo-design.com Posts: 1680 | From: Edmonton Ab Canada EH! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hiya Bob, Whenever I work with friends and family, I either charge double my retail price or do it for free. Mainly because they don't act like or expect the same treatment as a regular client. So, when they give me the line "do whatever you think looks good" I can either tell them "you got what you paid for", or I have enough in the budget to do it over again. Seriously though, it sounds like you entered into a professional arrangement and it needs to be treated as such. I would suggest that you charge your retail price, but consider a cash payment for materials and barter for some beef for your time.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Their attitude towards the job seems to make a difference to me. If my friends and family allow me to design it and do it like I want, I'll make sure I do an outstanding job, and give them a decent discount.
If they change the design 6 times, demanding proofs, having a family conference on every change, hovering over my shoulder the whole time, ending up going with a design that sucks, etc.... they are getting the full retail price.
I'm working on a sign for an uncle right now that has taken twice as long to get into production as a regular customer... can't afford to discount it.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
I know were your coming from. Over the years I have been ask to make Address Signs or Vehicle Graphics or Memorial Headstones..Etc.. for my father.
Never asking for anything in return but the demands keep coming for the next and new project.
My brother that I haven't seen in 10 years came down from Upper Canada for a vacation and the first thing out of my Fathers mouth was how much work he had stacked up for us.
I blow my top and the wife had to slow my pace down. This is the straw... From here on in, It is shop rate, You don't want to pay me then you'll have to pay someone else to get it done.
I have even had someone doniant my service without ask myself first.
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks SOOOOOOOO Much for the input so far. I guess the problem I face is one that has been long standing. My sister is a retired school teacher,{College, masters degree Yadda Yadda Yadda }. I always got the impression that I was considered less valued because I am not "edubacated" in a formal sense. Basically self taught in all the areas of my life. I have built up and run two businesses, and had numerous "other" vocations over 40+ years. Never had to ask family or friends for a hand out. I have truly lived a "Blessed" life. That being said, I still want to come out of this situation having done the right thing.
Regards, Bob C.
-------------------- Bob Cole American Sign Company 14163 Akron Canfield Rd. Berlin Center, Ohio 44401
A.K.A. Vinylman® Posts: 575 | From: Berlin Center, Ohio, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Robert, I have the same situation with my sister-in-law and brother-in-law. Whatever he has is priceless and whatever I have is worthless. I had him to put up a privacy fence, paid him the price that he quoted, although we had gotten two other estimates that were cheaper. When he wanted directional signs for his two daughters weddings, he wanted them for free. When his mother died, he wanted a digitally printed "poster". Took me a couple of hours in Photoshop plus the actual making - again, for free. I'm deserving to get paid for what I do, even from family but sometimes you just gotta give for the sake of the family.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would give her a family discount. And let her know your retail price. Giving it to her for free, in my opinion, totally devalues the job and also her esteem of you. Say for example you would charge a client $1500 for the job. Charge her $750. That at least covers your materials. Obviously she has no great idea of the value of a good sign job if she made the last trailer a DIY outta contact paper. When her friends and associates see your great job, maybe she will "get you" after all these years. This coming from someone with a lawyer for a brother (a really wonderful guy) who has done not one but two tricky divorces for me and only charged me a case of beer each. love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3488 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I find that the value of what we do, and the effort and skill it takes is not clearly apparent to people ... and most of all family.
I think that by making them aware of the highest price, you will show them the value of what you do, and open their eyes to more of what you're about in your profession. I don't blame people for not knowing, but they can be shown. Whether you charge them that or not, it may gain you some awareness and respect for what you do.
I share your feelings about how you may be percieved by those who have gone thru more formadable education ... but having said that, don't feed that perception. Ultimately, we can teach people how to treat us.
~nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
I would be inclined to go the same route as Elaine. Give them an invoice for the full amount, then ask them if they would like to pay it in full or trade it for meat as an option. If signage if for their business, I charge the going rate, small discount possible if they are not a PITA. If its a personnal thing, like boat lettering for my brother, I traded it for a day out fishing.
-------------------- "Are we having fun yet?" Peter Schuttinga DZines Sign Studio 1617 Millstream rd Victoria BC V9B-6G4 Posts: 521 | From: Victoria BC | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Bob, I agree with Nettie & Jill, both. If you charge her, but also give her a discount, she will see just how much your work is worth!
My husband's sister is a florist. She is one tough cookie, & does not discount us 1 penny!!! I lettered her floral van for her & charged her like I would anyone else, but I think I gave her a small discount just to show her some kindness. But her husband raises & sells beef. He gives us 1/2 a beef every year, & Jon works it off for him. As a matter of fact, he just helped him pour concrete in his barn for the beef.
I think this is an individual thing, with so many different factors involved. Sometimes we need to "reach out" to our families & one way to do it is by helping them. It shows what kind of person we are. (Nothing changes if both sides stay hard) If you state on the reciept what your work is WORTH, then give a lower total, she may appreciate what you have done for her even more, & it may reach into other areas of her life.
Hope this goes well!
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I say charge her regular price. I've done some freebie work, but it's always been my offering. If you are in a small town where everyone knows everyone and you give 1 a discount, then where do you draw the line? Soon you're giving everyone a discount and working for nothing.
If you don't feel comfortable billing her regular price, even though you pay regular price for the beef, then give her an invoice with the regular price less a "gift" discount. If you feel that your family hasn't valued what you do, do you honestly think giving them your work is going to make them see the value of what you do?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sometimes it's hard for some people to just "give". If you can give it to them, DO SO! If you can not afford to give it to them, give it to her at a discounted price that is comfortable with the both of you.
The higher authority states: Giving is not guilt-motivated. Giving is not need-motivated. 2Cor. 9:7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
-------------------- AirbrushBobby.com Clearwater, FL The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.1Cor1:18 “The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord”Rom6:23 Posts: 505 | From: Clearwater Florida USA | Registered: Feb 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
If I were paying regular retail for their beef, I would charge regular retail for graphic work. And, generally, in money. Barter is a good thing when it can be done immediately, such as 1 freezer-full for 1 trailer-writing. But when the goods/services are not equal or immediately convenient, then one party will need more time to pay up. That's when things start to drag, and things get forgot.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Bobbie Rochow: Bob, I agree with Nettie & Jill, both. If you charge her, but also give her a discount, she will see just how much your work is worth!
My husband's sister is a florist. She is one tough cookie, & does not discount us 1 penny!!! I lettered her floral van for her & charged her like I would anyone else, but I think I gave her a small discount just to show her some kindness. But her husband raises & sells beef. He gives us 1/2 a beef every year, & Jon works it off for him. As a matter of fact, he just helped him pour concrete in his barn for the beef.
I think this is an individual thing, with so many different factors involved. Sometimes we need to "reach out" to our families & one way to do it is by helping them. It shows what kind of person we are. (Nothing changes if both sides stay hard) If you state on the reciept what your work is WORTH, then give a lower total, she may appreciate what you have done for her even more, & it may reach into other areas of her life.
Hope this goes well!
What Bobbie said.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would say "Come on sister, we have to clean this trailer before you help me put anything on it" (even if she helps clean and then just stands there holding vinyl pieces and watching) And let her appreciate how much work goes into it. Maybe it would be a good time to get a chance to talk one on one. And during the course of all that I would bring up how much the vinyl is worth and how long it took to design. She will ask questions. You can decide then what you want to do.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Before I read responses, I said to myself, you need meat and they need lettering. If you are paying top dollar for meat, let her have a credit for top dollar for lettering and exchange when it's meat time!
Having said that, if this was my personal family, I'd do it for free. Or slip in a, "Bake me something!"
posted
You already buy your meat from them and nothing was ever said in regards to a trade further down the road. Recoup some of your cash and charge them, they'll see you as family as well as a business man, nothing lost but a good business man never the less.
When my sister was living she insisted I charge her explaining to me what I was in business for.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
Let's see if I missed anything here. . ."gentleman Farmer", you pay full retail for their meat. Retired school teacher & retired machinist - both good pensions, there. Plus they look down on ya, plus instead of calling you last time they did it on the cheep. Full Retail. If you feel guilty give 'em a "preachers" discount - add 20% - then deduct 10%.
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Gotta love "horse people". They'll spend $30k on a trailer, $30k on a truck to pull it, who knows how much a single horse costs in the first place and what it requires in food, upkeep and medical bills, let alone multiple horses.
Guess contact paper is all they can afford after all that.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mike, horse people are like race car drivers.
I have plenty of friends who won't even blink while buying $1500 worth of Hoosiers for one race, but complain about paying $750 for car lettering that will last half a season.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
How about communicating with her first, about her budgeted price range, explaining that this kind of a job is worth this, that kind of look is worth that much... where does she wish to land? Also cleaning & setup are needed- it'd be easier if her kids washed it & not you. Then say that when you've bought beef, you've paid the going rate for it with no discounts in the past...and maybe she'll dream up a mutually convenient offer.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
![[Bash]](graemlins/bash.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic