You might remember I posted "Client Doesn't Pay" back in March. The client had paid me a 50% deposit and after I installed the sign he refused to pay the balance. He stated that it was late, that the phone number was too small and that I didn't do things in the project that I promised or offered. Thanks to oversight, I had a signed contract that stated he was getting a double sided sandblasted hdu sign mounted to a 3/4" mdo cabinet, with a lusterboard hanging sign, Sign would be installed to 6" posts and have copper top caps. Many of you gave some great encouragement and advice, ranging from taking the sign down until he paid or taking him to small claims. Well, since his office is 2 hours north I chose to take him to small claims. The balance owed was $2,000 and I was asking for $2,500 plus court costs. Today was court day. I had never been to court before and I admit, I was nervous at first. But once I started stating my case and showing all the emails that verified his order and his delay with art approval it came down to this: Since I had a signed contract stating clearly what I was going to provide and had photographs of the finished project I had solid evidence and the judgement went to my favor for the full amount. YEAH Now he has two days to pay or it goes to garnishment. Important lessons learned: GET IT IN WRITING You guys provided awesome resources for me to refine my old contract and spell it all out. GET WRITTEN CHANGE ORDERS TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS, and DOCUMENT WITH PHOTOS. I had a great source of paper trail, old emails, etc. THANKS TO ALL and if you need any advice on this, let me know! I learned a ton!
-------------------- Jeff Wisdom SignWorks info@oregonsignworks.com Posts: 450 | From: Oregon | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted September 06, 2006 12:36 AM
great testimony. You are not the first one I ever saw win a court case. I found over the years that judges HATE it when someone tries to stiff the working man who does a good job...
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted September 06, 2006 05:45 AM
I have always wondered why?. why does osmeone order something and not to want to pay for it. i dont understand that. I pay for all my stuff. I would be damned ashamed to get something from a another small business guy and stiff him. I would hate to walk the streets and know people were looking at me in the way of a lowlife.
but damn good for you, not only should we be paid what we are due there ought to be an extra 1k aggravation charge
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
quote:Originally posted by bruce ward: I have always wondered why?. why does osmeone order something and not to want to pay for it. i dont understand that.
I know it may sound simplistic, but I've found over the years that most people have a reason for doing things (it might not be good reason, but a reason nonetheless). Perhaps this guy didn't have the money to pay for the balance of the job, or got offended somewhere along the line. Who knows.
The bottom line is he thought he could get away with stiffing a vendor. Maybe someone stiffed him and he was looking to "pass along" the bad karma.
I'm just glad you took him to court and proved your case.
I can't help but think that this thread should be titled "Ex-Client doesn't pay - Revisited" as you're surely never gonna do more work for this guy.
-------------------- Paul Bierce - Designer pabierce@hotmail.com www.paulbierce.com Posts: 330 | From: Dix Hills, NY | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted September 06, 2006 08:05 AM
Fantastic news, Jeff. You really are a winner, and an example to us all, for doing things the right way, right from the start. love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted September 06, 2006 08:11 AM
Congratulations, Jeff, on your settlement.
"Important lessons learned: GET IT IN WRITING"
The days when a handshake and a little mutal trust seem to have ended. There are a lot more people who will find excuses not to pay a balance than there should be and protecting your work is more important than ever. Pricing and payment troubles are always a concern. It just seems that this business is like no other in that sense. I know of no other service business that has customers haggle, debate or deny payment as much as a sign shop does after the services have been performed.
In my own experience, many of the customers are start up businesses with a shoestring budget. Many will have unexpected costs they need to cover and somehow they have always felt that their signage can be renegotiated. I don't know where this tradition started, but hopefully I'll live long enough to see it end.
This is a business, not an auction. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted September 06, 2006 10:38 AM
In regards to Bruce Ward's email. I was able to get awarded the past due amount, plus court costs, $2,700 do it was definitely worth my time.
Thanks again All for your counsel and encouragment to go for it!
-------------------- Jeff Wisdom SignWorks info@oregonsignworks.com Posts: 450 | From: Oregon | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted September 06, 2006 11:03 AM
Is there a site that has generic sign buisness forms. I did contracting for a long time and can come up with some thing on my own but drawing on others experience is always helpfull. If you have a site please let me know. danaart@verizon.net
Many time when these threads pop up, there are a few who say not to take it to court, to let it go. All that is doing is enabling and allowing the thief to be a thief, which is exactly what he was til the court made him pay his bill.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted September 06, 2006 06:35 PM
Good for you Jeff!! I just got some digi pix developed today to send to my lawyer. I did a design for an art framing shop and her daughter decides to open another shop so she calls me for an estimate. I gave her one but somebody else got the job. I went by a few weeks later and saw my design on a banner and on her glass. I called her and read her the riot act. I started out by telling her she owed me a $300 design fee for the design. Of course she balked and told me she wasn't paying it. I told her "Oh yes you will. You're in the art business and you're willing to stand before a judge and tell him you didn't know about intellectual property rights?" She said she would just remove it and I said "Fine, if that's the way you want to do business. My policy is that if it's good enough to use, it's good enough to pay for." I went by again, 4 months later and it's still up. I got my camera and snapped some pix and had them developed. She's gonna pay a lot more now; I'm going to ask for punitive damages.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted September 06, 2006 06:44 PM
I had a guy that stiffed me one time on a 4x8 d/f sign framed by 2x4s and 4x4 posts installed at his place of business. I did not have it in writing or signed for. So I stole the sign back. He filed with his insurance company for the value of the sign, giving them my name as the company who installed the sign. They contacted me for a value of the sign. I told them what happened and we all went to the JP with it. I got my money and he got a fine for insurance fraud. And I got to keep the sign (I later painted a church sign on it) and got paid again. I did give the church a good price though. Bill
[ September 06, 2006, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Bill Biggs ]
-------------------- Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud 10 year Supporter of the Letterheads Website www.artssigns.com "MrBill-" on the chat page MailTo:biggsbb@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1020 | From: Lake Jackson,Tx | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted September 06, 2006 08:05 PM
That's funny, Bill. I did something similar. I think I posted it on here before, but I did a set of magnetics for a business man... after sending several statements and him always saying he'd send a check, I realized he wasn't gonna pay. One day we pull up to a restaurant, and there's his vehicle with the magnetics... I park beside him, pull them off and stick 'em in my vehicle. We go in, I speak to him for a little, never mention the money.
Later when I'd see him, he never said anything about the mags being stolen or missing. I had figured if he came in to get new ones, I'd make him pay up front for the old set, and then charge him half price for a new set and give him the old ones back.
He later ran for political office and I did a lot of signs for him, always made him pay up front, of course.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted September 06, 2006 08:20 PM
Years ago, a barbecue place stiffed me on repairing their neon sign. A friend told me we needed to get a group to go eat there and everyone would say "The guy at the end is paying" when they got to the register. Once I got to the cashier, I was to present my bill. I never did have the guts to try it, although I should have.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted September 07, 2006 12:37 AM
Dana, I sent you an email regarding forms, I know you can get some from signcraft. I can send you whatever you like. Also if you do a search in old posts under any of these words, I came up with some good resources here by some very helpful folks: forms, contract, bid, proposal, estimate, Also Ricky - did you get any thing in writing from the original art frame store, written work orders, etc? My contract saved me.
-------------------- Jeff Wisdom SignWorks info@oregonsignworks.com Posts: 450 | From: Oregon | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted September 07, 2006 03:35 AM
Jeff's got it right. Get it in writing. I worked as a designer at a sign company that does about $3 mil a year in signs. They never start a sketch without a signed contract. Even for good customers. Also every sketch is signed off before production is begun. Jeff's got good advice.
-------------------- Jon Harl 5731 Meridian Ave. San Jose,CA 95118
jonharl@comcast.net Posts: 99 | From: San Jose, California | Registered: Jan 2004
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