posted
I'm a good boy. I want to do things the right way.
A customer contacted us a few months ago about a sgn for his new location. The property is located in a "highway use zone" which has some additional restrictions. As you may recall, I had an issue with another job earlier this year concerning putting up a sign in an identical zone which ultimately resulted in the er...um... disciplinary action against an inspector.
Well, here I go again.
When I met with this newest customer and knowing the sticky issues involved with this "zone", I had the new head of the inspections department to meet with my customer and me at the site so that there would be clear communication. The inspector said that the property line would have to be staked out which it was. And, upon his own inspection at the time, he showed us exactly where we could put the sign and the height limitations at X number of feet from the property line.
Well, two weeks ago, the customer finally made a decision and dropped off a $5k deposit check for a $9k carved and gold-leaf sign. We filled out the permit application and sent it in. Monday, we got an "Oops, we have an issue" call from the inspections department. It seems that where we were told we could put the sign is a main sewer line and that we would have to put the sign further back. Much further back. So far in fact that the 4ft tall sign will be sitting behind a brick wall that the property developer had illegally installed. (something else the inspections department is fully aware of and has done nothing about to this day)
So, I called the head inspector (the one who showed us originally where we could put the sign) to discuss the problem.
You're not gonna believe this one.
According to him, neither he nor the City have any responsibility. In fact, in his own words, it is the property owner's responsibility to point out the sewer easement to him and his inspectors; and that any problem that has arrisen is the customer's (property owner) fault for not making him aware of the sewer easement when he first came out at my request.
So, I have a meeting tomorrow morning at 8 am with the Mayor, the Planning Dept. heads and a city council member to discuss the issue and the problems that keep cropping up.
Just to give you a little history, about 10 years ago, I went to the city inspections department to check the code for a piece of property and find out what the restrictions were. I was told that the property was outside of the city's jurisdiction and did not need a permit. In the middle of installation along comes a building inspector who stops the crew because we don't have a permit. Now, not only do I end up looking like a fool in front of the client and have a crew that has to be paid, the city tried to fine me $100. It turns out that the property is very much in the City's jurisdiction. They tried to argue that the fact that I came to them first and that they made the mistake was no excuse. Fortunately, the city council members reacted the same way that I did when they were told about it at the following council meeting.
Now here I am 10 years later and I'm running into more crap. I find out that a local sign company has been putting up signs well into the residential right-of-ways without getting permits for a local contractor. Another contractor has been putting up brick walls and installing Gemini letters without getting a permit. And even though the inspections department has been made aware that these signs have all gone up within the last 18 months, there is nothing they can do. "Lets not dwell on the past and concentrate on the present" is the repeated tome I keep getting.
I'm a little P.O.'d right now. I've had it. I'll be presenting an ultimatum at the meeting right now. These people don't want stuff like this to get out in the public and I have a couple reporters biting at the bit for a story. I have all the documentation to back up all of my claims about the illegal signs, the inconsistant enforcement and indifferent attitudes - taped conversations, written documents, the works. Its going to make for an interesting meeting tomorrow.
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Taylor: ..."Lets not dwell on the past and concentrate on the present" is the repeated tome I keep getting.
Looks like you should adopt the "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission" philosophy; seems to work for the other guys. Also, if the city dudes don't have any real responsibility, do they actually have any authority?
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
That's an easy question to answer Jim. It becomes more work to do the right thing than it's worth when the government officials forget who they're working for. Some of them even start to think that we're working for them & they are at the top of the food chain.
Glenn, I can sympathize with your frusration but it sounds like you've got the situation well in hand so good luck. I hope you get this resolved in your favor quickly. By standing up for yourself, you'll save a lot of grief for the rest of us in the future. If more of us stand up for ourselves like you are, we'd live in a better world.
Ricky made a good point when he said " if the city dudes don't have any real responsibility, do they actually have any authority?". Also, while I agree with Ricky's suggestion that "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission", that philosophy should be reserved for those occasions when all else fails.
I also understand your title for this topic, "Time to execute another inspector" can be read many ways, so, if worst comes to worst, don't forget the "Rule of the 3 S's".
You might also enjoy checking out http://copwatch.com/ . Although they're covering some issues more serious than a sign permit they do have some food for thought.
(edited because I forget Glenn is spelled with 2 'n's, thanx curtis)
[ August 23, 2006, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Chris Elliott ]
-------------------- Chris Elliott 1longshot@classicnet.net cell 62084two2232 Posts: 686 | From: Scottsdale, AZ & Anthony, KS, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
inspections come in two flavors. Flavor one is actual enforcement where someone is penalized for something wrong
Flavor two is when the permitting is done for revenue factors only. They enforce the codes but if there is any shoddy work its up to the landowner to get remedy.
Looks like u have number two..
For example. years ago i did a restaraunt and the gas line leaked. IT passed inspection because the plumber came in and repressurized the gas line. When All was done I complained about the gas leak to the inspection department and they said it was up to me to take care of it..
There was no pipe dope on the threads..
good luck,,
By the way,, they spell yer name wrong,, its not G L E N N
its.. G R I M R E A P E R
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Presenting your case as "well he did this and he did that" doesn't seem to really be presenting YOUR case now does it. Be glad you didn't dig into somewhere you shouldn't. Around here you can't steak out something without calling the proper authorities first (one phone call and all the utilities come out within 2 days). The gas line guy doesn't know where the electric is (unless the electric guy already flagged the line before him) and vice-versa. Hit a fiber-optic cable without a PROPER steak out ... not going to be the permit guys responsibility.
I'm not taking the inspectors side but don't think you'll get far from complaining about what others have done... as you have already mentioned. There has to be someplace you can put it except behind a wall.
-------------------- Compulsive, Neurotic, Anti-social and Paranoid ... but basically Happy Posts: 2677 | From: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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It is his responsibility to make sure that the code in enforced. The evidence I have is that it is not or it is being done selectively.
It is my responsibilty to follow the code or risk being fined $100 per day. Therefore, I contacted him and met with him at the site and he showed me where I could put the sign and what the restrictions are. The information he provided is what the size and layout of the sign are based on.
The property is part of a "Highway Use Zone". What this means is that signs may only be 4' tall and of a certain maximum square footage if you are less than 25' from the property line.
In this case, the property line is 12' from the street curb. Signs that are greater than 25' from the property line may be up to 10' in height and have a larger square footage.
Since putting the sign greater than 25' behind the property line would result in putting the sign behind the brick wall and nearly into his parking lot, the customer decided to go move the sign closer to the street and live with the 4' high restriction.
The sign was designed to fit within those restrictions and still remain legible by eliminating much of what the customer originally wanted. As a result, my potential income in the job was reduced as well.
Now we are being told that the sign will have to go behind the wall anyways. The wall is higher than 4'. The panels have already been routed and the sign base is in mid-production.
The customer paid me a $5000 deposit of which I have already spent $4000 in materials and labor.
As a result, my customer is going to have a sign that no one can read.
So why complain about what other have done. The point isn't to complain. The point is to ....
1) demonstrate the inconsistancies in enforcement; 2) demonstrate the departments failure in their responsibilities; 3) demonstrate the possibility of corruption and/or incompetence in the department; 4) demonstrate to the City Council the department's failure to follow the policies and ordinances as dictated by the Council; 5) provide me with political leverage to get the job done as was originally approved; and finally 6) provide me with enough leverage to make sure that my competitors and I compete on a level playing field.
What gives me the right to complain is that if he had done his job correctly, I would have ended up selling my client a taller, larger and more expensive sign. Therefore, not only has the inspector made my customer's sign less effective and less valuable, the inspector prevented me from making even more money on the job.
.
[ August 23, 2006, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
you know what is the others didnt get permits I wouldnt either.
Sometimes i think the application for inspector reads, "You must be an idiot, Use no common sense and NOTHING is your fault. No experience necessary
What mamazes me is you can tlak to 3 diff inspectors and get 3 diff answers. No one knows what to do or where to do it. I use the good system keep it behind the power poles!
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Ahhhh, political BS ... nevermind. If they are just f'n you for kicks, f'em right back. I only agree (not really agree, but understand) that it's the property owners responsibility to know what's burried where.(one phone call) Having to move a couple feet to avoid something is one thing ... sounds like your dealing with something entirely different.
Go git'em
-------------------- Compulsive, Neurotic, Anti-social and Paranoid ... but basically Happy Posts: 2677 | From: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I think you have a good case on every point except the one that matters to you now, number five.
If you or someone else have filed written complaints (the only kind that matter in this case) and they have failed to take action, then they are guilty of at least some of the charges you made.
But if it's the property owner that had to inform him of the sewer line, and he didn't, then how can you win that one?
Certainly not because of your lost income, etc.
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
A sign company here recieved a certified letter yesterday stating if any sign company installed a sign in this county without a permit or installed one for another sign co. without a permit that they would be subject for a fine and or jail time.I always abide by their wishes even though they don't have a clue about the installation process or even what sweat feels like either. These people are in control and we are the the ones who bare the time and financial loss from these do it by the CODE...book worms. You have to handle these inspectors with care...after all you wonder if they have the keys to hell.
-------------------- Bill Wood Bill Wood, Sign Artist 3628 Ogburn Ave., NE Winston-Salem, NC 27105-3752 336-682-5820 Posts: 397 | From: Winston-Salem, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Bill I say gather them all up and burn them at the stake. Jail time???? Sounds like somebody needs to do some major letter writing and whining and checking to see if that is even enforceable. I don't think any government can stop you from making a living, therefore their "law" is of no effect. I'd certainly check with a good lawyer well versed in constitutional law.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I got to move a 18' pylon because after I installed it a big dawg pulled a aireal photo from 1974. Said we we're not 5' off the property line. Customer showed us his property line. Anyway they pulled the permit back from us. Going to court on this one.
I pull permits for my father's metal building construction company. We can usually have our plans reviewed and pull a permit in several weeks, a set recently took about 2 months, with at least 6 trips to the permit office, but I am always polite and friendly, even if am wanting to go all TIAT (Todd in a Theater) on them...
As a result they let me hand-draw changes to our plans on the spot to meet their requirements. Most other companies, they force em to take every change back to their engineer to get re-stamped.
I have been in there different times when contractor's call cussing them out for taking so long, and I see the plans review lady pull their plans out of the stack and stick it on the bottom... yup... dat's about 2 weeks.
It's tough to work with them sometimes, but these people could delay the devil from building hell for the next 2000 years, if they decide to.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Well, I don't have time to go into all of the details just yet, but the director of the inspections department just usurped the Council's authority by deciding that he is going to selectively enforce the code.
A council member just found out about it last night and is livid.
posted
Last year, I design what might have been the most ambitious project I have ever started. The customer is now nearing completion of a 2 million dollar building which is located on the gateway of a major tourist roadway here in New Hampshire. His intention was not only to showcase his business, but put out a top notch job would reflect the area as well.
The customer has told me that the job has been rejected by the town already without any presentation, application or specs. "You can make a sign like that here." ?????????????????????
Acording to the towns own rules, you can, but I guess they are too busy to notice the wave of sidewalk a-frames that are blocking pedestrian walkways, the umpteen million sign a few of the businesses are wallpapering their exteriors with and mounting systems over sidewalks made out of cardboard and duct tape.
Silly me for thinking they might actually APPROVE something that follows the rules.
Like Glenn, what was a profitable and challenging project has been regulated to "just another sign" by the powers that be.
I'm argueing this one as well... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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