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how does a sign business go out of business?
that amazes me. I stay in business every day with no storefront, not one yellow page ad, nothing, and I'm as busy as I could be just off word of mouth.
huh, sound like tgot waht was coming to him, Jon.
BTW, I went by Captain Ken's shop today and got the full letterhead rundown from a genuinely nice guy. I got to look at a wallfull of excellent panel Jams and other gift panels on his wall. I couldn't stay long though, my wife installed lojack on my worktruck and I can't stay in one place too long or she'll find me and ask me to fix something.
I get along with the neighbors pretty good as long as he doesn't whip out his mahlstick.
posted
I get along great with the others around these parts. I like to visit when I'm nearby their shop and have time to shoot the sh*t. Any of them are just a welcome here at mine, and if there's something they need and I've got some, no problem, I might need to do the same someday.
I hear alot of folks here talking about competition. I choose to think differently about that. I don't have any competition here, just people that happen to do the same thing I do for a living.
-------------------- Tim Rieck Signs Halfmoon Bay, BC Posts: 736 | From: Halfmoon Bay, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000
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There's a guy in town that does digital printing and I enjoy his company and respect that part of his work. I send out my prints to be done by a shop a hundred miles away though. I would not want my customer to hear that someone saw the work being done in the competitors shop, and I would not trust the competitor with my files. If he needed something I'd lend it to him, most likely.
Another shop called and wanted to buy enough mag to do two signs he sold. I stock the stuff and he doesn't. It's not like he ran short in the midst of a rush job and would cut me a return piece when his roll came in, he just doesn't have the investment. I said no, I'm not a supplier.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6720 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I have a situation that none of you have.This man owns a sign company here and I introduced him to my X wife They now have been married for 3 years. I'm always available to help him do a job when he gets in a bind and he always gives me the same courtesy.Since he married my X wife...I can't call him my competitor any more...I refer him as my HUSBAND-N-LAW This is not humor it's fact.
-------------------- Bill Wood Bill Wood, Sign Artist 3628 Ogburn Ave., NE Winston-Salem, NC 27105-3752 336-682-5820 Posts: 397 | From: Winston-Salem, NC | Registered: May 2006
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I try to be friendly with all the shops that I can. Unfortunately, the favor is not always returned. Some simply want to be left alone.
I've even tried to do business with a few but since they've given me retail pricing I take it that they're telling me to take my business elswhere - and I do.
I don't worry about other shops stealing my customers. If that would happen then I never really had a customer - a shopper maybe - but not a customer.
Life's too short. If they won't be friendly then I'll go my own way.
-------------------- Denis de Leon Creative Signcrafters 125 Railroad Avenue, suite 4 Hightstown, NJ 08520 Posts: 128 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Jul 2005
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I had a friendly, very tall guy who is good at applying reflective stripes drive 40 minutes here from Kittanning PA to help me letter a firetruck last Saturday. He worked tirelessly, would not accept payment, and saved my butt! Now that is a friend. love....jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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One of my "competitors" is an old school sign painter and does jam up good work too. He has sent me work several times, I've been to his shop, he's been to mine.
I just cut some vinyl for another competitor to get her out of a jam when her computer went on the blink. She was happy, that made me happy.
I've done design work and cut vinyl for another competitor and he stops by the shop once in awhile to say hi. Another competitor(no longer here) tried to tell me that this guy couldn't be trusted yada yada....But he's always been nice to me. So, I try to make "judgements" on my own and not just "he said she said".
I've cut vinyl and done design work for another competitor and we've also colaborated on jobs. He's come to my shop many times and I've been to his.
We've shared materials with another competitor, as well, and they were very grateful for the help. It's just better all the way around to try to be friends. It's much more fun.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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well sure hope so, wave at all sign shop trucks etc, stop in say howdy when near, offer any help if needed and even learning how to ask for help ...just this past wkend pro signs n graphics came over & showed me something simple of how to, wow great guy thx if ya read this ....anyway learned long time ago that sharing allows you also to grow...anyway....THANK YOU & ENJOY LIFE
posted
Ive got around 15 people here now who use vinyl cutters. Not one of them is a sign shop. They are either printers or screenprinters that do it on the side. One of them is a window tinter that does signs also. He is constantly calling wanting to "borrow" some vinyl, coroplast, wire stands, etc. I finally cut him off last week, telling him that I keep this stuff in stock for myself, not him. The others, I know them ,but dont really have a relationship with them. Not one of them is serious about doing signs, they only bought a cutter to "make a fortune" on signs. I do have good relationships with the serious shops in the area, Russ Mills of Artcraft who is 35 miles south of me, and Mike Barnes of Signwerks who is 35 miles north of RUss. They are both full time sign people like me and do the same kind of work I do. If they were right in my town, the relationships would be the same, because they do good work, and take care of their businesses and are professionals. Id give them anything they need.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Jay Allen's shop helped me out in a big way today:) all I needed was a little yellow vinyl and some plexi cut. He saved me a buttload of trouble getting it done. Hey Jay, I just wanted to thank you onboard for not letting me sink. So, I got to visit Kathy, Joe and Casey (the beautiful golden doggie) and was entertained too.) thanks a heap, neighbor.
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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Who has time to visit?!? I'm busy camping, or working.
Honestly, I think differently when I need an item. I can get it delivered overnight for $9 via bus. I don't call sign shops near me for supplies because they're located as far as the bus depot anyway.
Not to say I'm not friendly with the locals. I love to razz Dan about not washing his black truck from time to time and all that. Someone has to do it.
posted
When I first started out, I helped a nearby sign guy over the winter, then in Spring I went back on my own. He told me if I ever needed anything to call or come over, so I did. But you know, I began to nickle-dime him for vinyl. Even tho I paid him for it, it was a bother to him. One day I showed up & he charged me retail price for the 1 to 2 yards of vinyl, & I got the hint.
Actually, he did me a favor, because I learned not to lean on others all the time.
I don't see him often, but when I do, I don't feel the friendship I once did. It makes me feel bad. I like him, & he was my friend. I am only 20 minutes away from his shop, but there is lots of work for both of us, no need to be in competition with each other.
No matter what, I will try to keep on being his friend to him, even tho he obviously isn't the same toward me.
I had originally started this post because there have also been a few Letterheads I have e mailed that refuse to answer me. I do not know them, for them to have a grudge against me or anything. I found myself feeling horrible one day about it, worrying, just feeling bad. The rest of you make up for the few who are like this. Thank you again!!!
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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Bobbie, apparently those Letterheads have forgotten to leave their egos at the door! I used to try to be like Little Mary Sunshine here in Letterville, just because I was so darn happy to be amongst my fellow sign makers. I'd get notes saying not to IM or sign stuff "love...jill" because so and so's wife or GF became offended by it. No longer do I sent group gropes (that's what I call'em) I only IM those I actually know, or those that seem "OK" to IM. It's understandable that a local shop might snub you, but to be given the cold shoulder from fellow brothers/sisters of the brush is just plain rude. love....jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Hey Bobbie, If I've ever failed to email you back, it was an oversight on my part. SOmetimes I just get preoccupied with something and just plain forget. If I have, I apologize. You are definitely my friend!
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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No, wayne & Jill, you both have been so good to know! Thank you!
And after being "snubbed" by a few, I had emailed a guy about an hour away from me & did not get a reply from him. I felt bad about it, then started this post, after all these "no replies".
Here, ten minutes after I had posted my last post, he called me, not even reading this thread!!!! He is a super-busy guy, & a VERY nice guy! I told him to jump on & read this thread about "our neighbors"!
I am anxious to meet him sometime, too. I am still glad I posted this thread, tho. I think it is an important subject. Thanks to all of you who shared your opinions.
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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I read this today and was thinking about this all afternoon. What would my comments be. Well I think Jane and many others say it right. I am always friendly and will help anyone how but “how friendly” I may be will be different. Our area here we also have 6 or so sign shops in a few mile area. One less than a mile down the road I would do anything at all for, If he needed me to help apply all night long then buckle up I’m there, no question asked and he would do the same. We are both vinyl Jockeys but to different deals completely what he does and we do. Other shops we help each other out with prints or corplast stuff like that. There are a few here in town I sure wouldn’t go out of my way to help because they are just sneaky plain and simple.
Then as Kissy said I also got lucky over the years to meet up with wonderful friends here at Letterville. I can recall making a call a few years back on a Sunday after reading a post here about a “Letterhead meet” on Rt. 8 Butler PA. Yep one of Jill’s first meets… I snuck up there that Sunday met some awesome folks, felt so out of place with all the talent I saw, and now you can’t keep me away from a “Meet”
-------------------- Al Checca Kidney dialysis Pt. wizard42171967@yahoo.com Posts: 261 | From: Latrobe just outside Pittsburgh Pa in Latrobe | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Jill Marie Welsh: I had a friendly, very tall guy who is good at applying reflective stripes drive 40 minutes here from Kittanning PA to help me letter a firetruck last Saturday. He worked tirelessly, would not accept payment, and saved my butt! Now that is a friend. love....jill
Bet he didn't need a ladder either.....
-------------------- Al Checca Kidney dialysis Pt. wizard42171967@yahoo.com Posts: 261 | From: Latrobe just outside Pittsburgh Pa in Latrobe | Registered: Aug 2001
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Bobbie, if I've ever ignored one of your emails, I apologize, it wasn't intentional. I think sometimes too, people's spam filters are throwing legitimate email away. I have a woman in town that I've been emailing for 2 weeks, NO answer, but I get her "mass emails". I've even replied to them so either her spam filters are out of whack, she can't figure out how to receive, just send email or she's just being rude.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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I am always friendly with all shops and find the response to be mostly positive. Maybe it is me but if you start with a positive attitude it is infectious. Here is something I wrote about 10 years ago, somewhat updated but the sentiment is still solid.
WHAT IS A LETTERHEAD? Kent Smith
I was stuck by the comment recently that the Letterheads are an elitist group who are only interested in pursuing the most complex and challenging aspects of the sign craft. For those in the know, that comment could not be further from the truth however it brings up the challenge to reiterate from where the Letterheads come.
As we prepare to enter the 31st year of the Letterheads movement we must remember that the original 7 were apprentices getting together to learn. While it is true that the antique crafts were what had been lacking in their schooling and old timers were usually unwilling to share accurate information, merely leaning gold leaf techniques or wood japanning is not the limit of interest. Maintaining the history of our trade, learning and developing new techniques and furthering the art of sign making are the primary goals.
In an international survey held a few years ago it became obvious that many individuals (most of whom are "Letterheads") wanted an answer to the question: WHAT or WHO IS A LETTERHEAD. Many have said they would like to join, if possible and wanted an application or the address of the main office of the organization. Too many of the survey respondents and recent inquiries as well referred to Letterheads as "THEM". Letterheads is a "WE" association. No one is "on the outside". Everyone contributes as they can, no matter their level of skill or knowledge.
A LETTERHEAD is a person related in some way to the creation of signs (whether sign-artist, supplier, spouse, descendent, best friend or parent) who wholeheartedly supports the exchange of information, the growth of the craft and the rediscovery of the arts of sign-making. (I avoid the word sign painting because so many other techniques are available for our use and no limitations should be put on our craft or the exchange of ideas). IDEALLY, a LETTERHEAD would take time from his own workday to instruct his competition. Few are truly that pure but we continue to strive to perfection.
Succinctly, we are an association of like-minded soles, almost 6000 strong as one of our mailing lists indicates, although no complete list will ever exist.
As determined by the survey and expressed by many of the most vocal Letterheads, there will be no formal organization of Letterheads, no dues, no officers, no sanctions. Meetings and their agendas are solely at the discretion of the host. Meeting dates are determined only by the "first to announce" principle. Some are limited in size due to topic or space and some are open to all. Our newsletters are the trade magazines and fax machines (and this and other BB's). Each individual who proclaims himself a Letterhead has a responsibility to improve the craft of signmaking. Strive for your own unattainable goals, help others when you can AND if you want a membership plaque for your wall, MAKE IT YOURSELF!
[ August 24, 2006, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Kent Smith ]
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm friendly to them if I happen to run into them somewhere or if they call needing something, but I don't exactly socialize with them. I do send them customers that want jobs done that I know they do which I don't want to do.
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6720 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm friendly to their face, but if I see them putting up a job I bid on, I go around at night and pull some of the vinyl letters half off. Then the next day, I go by the customer and say.. Hmmm.. I see you got a sign from so and so... they are having a real problem getting their vinyl to stick lately.... good luck.
I usually only do this about 3 times per sign though, don't want any of them to get suspicious.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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Hopefully you're joking. Even though those kind of thoughts occasionally go through my head, I'd rather not suffer the bad karma.
I was outbid by someone the other day, and I simply told the lady that I hoped the other company knew what they were doing, and if they didn't meet her expectations to give me a call.
There is no way for a third of the price she'll get the same quality. Funny how often people come back to spend good money after bad.
A favorite quote of mine: "It's unwise to pay too much, but it's unwise to pay too little. When you pay too much you lose a little money, that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it's well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better." -John Ruskin
Edited to add: As far as being friendly to other signmakers near me, I try to be friendly, but if they're not, I'm not. I'm not a sign supply, but will do favors if I can, but if they're not reciprocated, then I'm not helping them out anymore. Not that I'm unforgiving, or keeping a detailed account of favors, but you can tell when someone turns on you.
posted
Yeah for sure friends with all the sign shops i know or meet,.. I had a gentlement that came in about aweek ago from a sign shop about an hour and half away from here and we chated for a while then the next day he called to ask if he could use my computer and software for a couple hours to finish a project up that had to be done... and for sure i would let him but in the end he didnt need my shop but still you never know when you may need them and what u can learn from someone thats in the same biz!
-------------------- Joanna Barnett Blackfoot, ALberta Posts: 207 | From: Nipawin | Registered: May 2006
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We share supplies with everyone in town. We are two days away from delivery or a long frustrating trip to Denver so it pays for all of us. Yes there have been a few that take advantage but even those have returned the favor over the years. I have found that maintaining this positive friendly relationship pays off in positive feelings for our industry as a whole as seen from the viewpoint of the public. I also believe it makes the less scrupulous think twice before they speak ill of others in the trade. I have been saved more than once by the one I would least expect. We are obviously the shop everyone is friendly with but I hope for perfection.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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I love other sign companies. We share installs and digital large format prints. We also work closely with screen- and tee-shirt printers that all share. At any given moment our bookkeeping is in a state of flux. "I owe this to this sign guy, but she owes me, less the job last week" Ad Nauseum! But it works for all of us. I think we're all related. ;0)
I've never been 'priced' by a competitor out-for-blood, that I know. If I feel like I'm being priced, of course!, I would share some screw-ball pricing--some so low and some so high they'd just run away, foaming at the mouth ... Just because I could.
Like 'Desiderata' says: "There will always be greater and lesser persons than yourself." {Shades of the '70's...I'm telling on myself.}
And, ultimately, there will ALWAYS be Greater and Lesser...Customers. Some fit us and some don't; and the misfits-for-us will always find another sign company that 'fits' them: Usually within their bad design ideas or their rock-bottom budget concept.
I particularly dislike the 'ultimate home manufatured signs' concept. It's the 'I build channel letters in the living room for half-price'; not UL-rated, but steal-a-sticker and it's okay. They don't carry insurance, nor are they available days, much less years, after the install...but all the customer remembers is, "Damned! They were cheap!" And when the store burns down, there's no recourse...and ALL sign companies look bad.
Rapid told me about his experience with local informal 'Sign Association' where each did their own thing, and the other companies referred jobs to the 'best' co for the job. We don't do that in Georgia...to my knowledge. We, each, 'do it all' and secretly sub-out what we can't do in-house. Like Rapid said, and I believe, what you share with others is out pure money out of your pocket.
A2Z needs to rely more on its internal abilities, or walk away, for maximum profit. That I'll always believe.
Sharing knowledge, fonts, clip art, customer's art files...sure. I'll do it. Money isn't everything...
-------------------- Karen Wunch (kwunch on chat) A2Z SIGNS in Buford, GA 678.714.1965 ---------------- "Believe there is a great power silently working all things for good, behave yourself and never mind the rest." ~~Beatrice Potter Posts: 126 | From: Buford Georgia | Registered: Jan 2003
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