Been etching designs for over 28 years and have to give an estimate for something that will be the largest project ever for me.
Local casino is adding two bars and has contacted me to sandblast aprox. 650 - 700 sq. ft. of glass. Aprox. 75 3/8" tempered glass panels. No real artwork, just rectangles/squares, but aprox. 80% of the glass will be blasted leaving a 2" inch clear border and some designs in the interiors also left clear.
I usually estimate on a sq. in. basis and depending on complexity of design raise the unit cost accordingly, but this is almost all sandblasting (80 - 85% etched)! What would be a fair estimate for both parties? Remembering that this is for a casino that has deep pockets!
Pressure Blaster w/000 sand & any suggestions are welcome!
I've done restuarants, banks and country clubs over the years, but nothing anywhere this size! Usually nice logo etc. even back etched, but this is $$$$. Also project is to be completed Apr. - May 2007
Your input on this would be greatly appreciated
SC
-------------------- Steve Carter {:{) a Touch of Glass 254 Lexington Mill Rd. Magnolia, DE, 19962 PH: 302-335-3170 Posts: 181 | From: Magnolia, De, USA - Center of the Universe | Registered: Jan 1999
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I've not tackled anything like that, and this idea may be off beam, but since you asked, I'd suggest considering this: If most glass panels had the same design & were the same size, maybe screenprint a resist on, and then wipe the panels with a hydrofluoric acid paste or similar glass etching paste, then clean everything off with a lacquer thinner/gunwash bath or, perhaps screen the paste on & flush it off in a tank moments later, depending on the activation time.
Hope there's nothing dangerous about what I said- appropriate safety gear must be worn & used at all times etc.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Geez, I always thought that blasting tempered glass was a no-no. I've done sand blasting glass as a business in south Florida on years back, resturants, yatchs etc and found that tempered glass could actually burst from the deep cuts when doing 3D reliefs or deep carvings. On the other hand using Alumininum oxide will cut down on the problem but you can't get the depth and only surface etch the glass. The surface etch can litterally be fogged as well having a clean cut but nothing like a relief.
You gotta check into this before you destroy your business from lawsuits if you know what I'm implying.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
Ditto what Joey said, make sure all you need is a surface etch and not a deep etch with the tempered glass.
Of course if you've done restaurants and bars before, tempered glass is likely the only type of glass you've blasted since it's required by building codes in most locations where people can come into contact with the glass. If someone puts a hand, head (barfight), chair, etc through the glass it will shatter into beads thereby not cutting anyone.
Another option is to screenprint a ceramic frit onto the glass. There are frits that mimmick an etched look. If all the etching is the same size you could screenprint it on in very little time and not have the mess in the shop. When I worked in the skyscraper biz designing window systems, often there were patterns and designs to be placed onto the glass including etched effects, and screened frits are how it's done. It's the only way when you're talking about volume.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Thanks for the replys - I really need to talk with others on this project.
All etching will be surface blasted for the reason of tempered glass problems. No stage blasting on this project.
Met with the contactor at noon today for about 3 hours. I wanted to know as much as possible to give a fair estimate. I gave a rough estimate and was asked if I would consider a second bar as well!! Same designs! I need to get back with them later this week, but told that I was the only one interested in the etching portion of the project??????????????.
Considered acid etching, but never been too satisfied with results on large areas. Tends to leave streaks. The architects specified sandblasting!
No real artwork, just rectangles/squares. Panels range from 21 x 27 to 24 x 96, aprox 75 total.
Glass supplier to deliver to my shop and pick for installation. Most are 3/8" but counter tops are 3/4"
Never had an opportunity to do such a large project before and no rush for completion.
I usually estimate a job (Usually one mirror or window) based on a sq. inch and raise the unit cost depending on how complex the artwork.
How would you estimate a project of this size?
Thanks again!
SC
-------------------- Steve Carter {:{) a Touch of Glass 254 Lexington Mill Rd. Magnolia, DE, 19962 PH: 302-335-3170 Posts: 181 | From: Magnolia, De, USA - Center of the Universe | Registered: Jan 1999
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You will never get any depth to the glass without breaking a few or should I say many pieces... And even when you install the glass (3/8") with a 1/8 relief is at a high stress area and anything can set it off.
"Acid Etch" or as Joey said "Alumininum Oxide only" Frosting only........
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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This is worth gettig 2 panels yourself an testing the time frame. ASAP
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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Yeah, I'd probably do the same as John. Take your time and base a price on that, knowing when you get into the job you can set up 10 or 15 panels at a time and blast 'em lickety split.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Hiya Steve, It sounds like you're looking for a reason to discount the project because of the volume of work, and the fact that there's no rush (a rarity). However, I wouldn't go there because you have the same, if not more, headaches than you would have on a similar, but smaller volume project. If anything, I would charge just as much or more than a normal project. First, architects can be jerks. But, if you spent 3 hours with this guy, he can't be all that bad. If he was difficult to work with, I wouldn't think twice about adding a P.I.T.A. charge. Second is specifications. If there's a book of specifications that you're required to follow, it could take hours to read it and do the research to make sure your materials and processes are within the architects specs. Third, and just thinking out loud here, some of the other problems I foresee are just handling that volume of panels in your shop. It's just a matter of playing the odds here and there is a excellent chance some panels will get broken. Fourth, if you complete the panels in advance of the deadline, you could be potentially loosing money there too. Storing the panels will cost you valuable real estate in your shop and it may restrict you from taking on other profitable projects. Plus, there is good chance of catastrophic breakage. It's sort of like "putting all your eggs in one basket". If anything, I would try to make arrangements with the client to store the completed panels at the client's site. This way, they would be responsible for the panels until they're ready to be installed. If I was going to discount, I would only discount any design or set up charges on the second job, assuming there I made money on the first and were no changes in the specifications or material costs.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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John - I like your idea of test blasting two panels to get a good idea of time spent setting up, cutting stencils and blasting!
Checkers - The glass company and I have worked together on projects in the past and they will deliver to my shop and when each stage is completed will pick up and store at their shop until ready for final installation.
I also have within my contracts a statement that states that I am not measuring or installing the glass and once I've etched the designs, if they were mis-measured or broken during installation that I have done my work and if needed will replace at specified cost. This has saved me twice in the past. Once the glass was mis-measured by contractor for an Arby's and 2nd the glass company broke two panels during installation at a bank. Both times I was paid for the initial work and replacements with no headaches!
Both the contractor and glass company are in agreement to this on this project, but we have not gone so far as finalizing contracts yet! Since I needed to check out a few things before giving a quote.
Again, NO stage blasting only surface etching!
I think I will call glass company tomorrow to get a couple of panels to test!
Thanks for the replys - gives me some good ideas!
Checkers - Next time thru 11/15 I may look you up! And if you are heading for the shore, I am just off of 113 below DAFB.
SC
-------------------- Steve Carter {:{) a Touch of Glass 254 Lexington Mill Rd. Magnolia, DE, 19962 PH: 302-335-3170 Posts: 181 | From: Magnolia, De, USA - Center of the Universe | Registered: Jan 1999
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You also may want to order a couple extra panels just in case. In case you screw one up or they do.Also remember you do not want to even move these this any more times than nessary. Planning is a very important.Where do you unload them, where do you set them for mask, where do you set them for transportation to the blaster, does the blaster have a spot "Ready"?
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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I once had an architect recommend lighting a portico 8 ft sq. and 4 ft. high with plexiglas face panels with a 50 watt light bulb! Architects aren't always experts, and all aspects of a job must be considered and any contingencies brought to light. Think about a 4 year kid falling against glass.
-------------------- Bob Nugent Hotrodsonline.com Gainesville, GA 30506 hotrod@hotrodsonline.com Posts: 46 | From: Gainesville, Georgia | Registered: Mar 2003
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Hiya Steve, It sounds like you have all the bases covered You're always welcome to stop on by, just give me a heads up. But, you have to promise not to laugh! Thanks for the offer too. If I head down that way, I'll let out a holler.
Cheers,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Well the estimate is presented, just need to wait and see!
Thanks for all the replys.
SC
-------------------- Steve Carter {:{) a Touch of Glass 254 Lexington Mill Rd. Magnolia, DE, 19962 PH: 302-335-3170 Posts: 181 | From: Magnolia, De, USA - Center of the Universe | Registered: Jan 1999
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