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This question is for the shops who have helpers and design people. I was wondering what range of pay you pay someone of same experience as the following employee... It seems we entered into a conversation today about the tremendous mental load I have and the lack of employee support I have.. I have an employee who has worked for me for a little over a year. This person has very little self motivation.. meaning I have to instruct this person what to do and how to do it and when to do it and then he does what he wants because he thinks my way is not quit right. And most of the time we have to do it twice or settle for some slight imperfections. He comes and goes when he wants and absolutely will not work late or on weekends.Has a history of being late (we open at 9:00 am) Most of the time has a chip on his shoulder. When things DON'T go right.. he claims everything I own is junk. He finds it hard to open a book and learn anything new. Now keep in mind I occasionaly get a couple good days a week out of him... Some days we don't argue at all. We get along pretty good most times. I kinda liken it to the Paul Sr. and Paul Jr of OCC... My shop is 5200 square feet and we have a total of 6 people working 8 computers, 4 plotters, 1 roland printer, corel draw, photo shop, flexi sign, gerber,about $10,000.00 + clip art library, full paint equipment, airbrushes, tons of art supplies, we do tons of custom paint, and more... You know your basic "JUNK" as he puts it..I used to buy lunch for everyone for the last year or so.. (every day)I even paid then to eat it. but I felt it was not appreciated so I stopped... In our conversation today.. He informed me that I was getting more than what I was paying for from him.. That If I wanted more from him.." I would need to pay more" in his defense.. He does answer the phone, takes care of walk in customers, does some design work in corel and gerber, makes deliveries, does installs, goes and picks up supplies, helps (when asked) I pay him 8.50 per hour.. he just got a 1.00 raise.. and I loaned him 1200.00 over a year ago and have yet gotten any return payment... Also on some special jobs I give a insentive bonus.. Example I paid him an extra 75.00 to help on a install that took about 3 hours.. he helped but he had plenty of "sit" time. His average week is 35 hours.I could go on.. I would like your input and advise. P.S. We do have meetings about his performance on a regular basis. Thanks in advance chuck coupland Coupland Signs
-------------------- Chuck Coupland Coupland Signs 426 N. 11th Laporte, Tx. 77571 copesigns@aol.com Posts: 36 | From: LaPorte, Tx. USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Chuck..I don't know the ecomomic realities of your area..But for $8.50/hr I wouldn't be very motivated either (even if there were a daily free lunch)
Last time I earned $8.50/hr (as an employee) was about 25 years ago. Back then it was just "OK" wages. The auto workers at that time were pulling down somewhere around $20/hr.
I am not suggesting you raise the pay schedule to motivate the guy, just thinking maybe you could get someone else who might perform better and pay THEM a higher rate.
Just another reason I like being a one person show.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
Seriously, it sounds like the guy is a grunt--with attitude.
It's that more than anything else--not the screw-ups or whatever that is the worst about your description. This guy acts like you OWE him---that alone is a firing offense in my opinion.
But you know that, already. What are you looking for, permission? GRANTED! Broom this guy in favor of some help that realizes the valuable skills and trade you are willing to PAY THEM to learn.
posted
And he still works there?! Your a very tolerant man. If it were me, he would not of been there as long as he has been. Sounds like you'll be kissing that 1200 bucks good bye.
The 1st thing you need to do tomorrow is to fire his azz!!!
-------------------- Mike Berry New England Posts: 534 | From: New England | Registered: Jan 2002
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8.50 is chump change unless he had no previous experience. But with that attitude, do both yourselves a favor and can him. He will learn to get off his butt and maybe find a better paying job, and you can get someone who will appreciate the job-if you pay the going rate for their experience. His comments are infectious and can effect everyone around the shop....now I have been employed longer than being on my own and I always apreciated a good swift kick in the ass....I was fired from a $6.50 an hour job and it's the best thing that happened to me in the sign business.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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I try to look at employees as advocates rather than adversaries. Not sure if this applies in your situation. I pay them as well as I can afford too, and try to share in the company's profits as well.
We just started a 401k for them, bonus plan for end of the year (based on sales) and profit sharing. I am matching up to 4.5% of their 401k as well, plus I cover 80% of their health insurance. We are enjoying a tremendous year, and will surpass all of last years sales by the end of this month. I couldn't have done it alone or without a dedicated crew.
These are good people who work hard for the company, and in my opinion, are entitled to share in the rewards of their efforts, over and above their salary. I haven't lost one employee yet, and the crew is very happy here. And I'm equally fortunate to have a dedicated team behind me.
The year, I've been able to take every Friday off for the past 10 weeks to go fishing. Pllus a few weeks vacation. But when I'm gone, the place runs and makes money for me. I couldn't say that a few years ago. Time off meant no income. I have 3 full time people, and two part time people, and a bunch of subs. I treat them all fairly, and expect the same out of them as well.
They are all given freedom to make decisions, and I do my best to empower them. I continually send them for further education. The biggest investment you can make is not in equipment but in staff. It much less expensive to keep a great employee than lose them.
One other thing I've learned is that even though you are the boss, you're not perfect either. In the past, when I've made mistakes or errors, I immediately acknowledge them to the employee, and try to move forward, a little wiser.
Managing people is a challenge, just like design is a challenge. And I approach it the same way - try each day to be better than the day before and learn as much as can.
Fortunately, so far so good.
One other thing I want to add about employees. Be not afraid to hire people who are more talented than you in certain areas. If you approach the business as that - a business - and put your ego aside - you would always opt for surrounding yourself with people who are equally or even more intelligent than yourself.
For me, my company isn't about me. It's about the crew we have here. And collectively, my company is stronger, more creative, and more adaptive as a whole than individual parts.
Remember - build a company based around just yourself, and when you take yourself out of the equation, then the business has no value. As I plan my 14 year exit strategy, I want to have assets inclusive in the company that extent beyond my talent.
Just my two cents, on what little experience I have.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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As far as wages, that's an area thing. If he had no experience when he started, $8.50 would be fair around here, especially when it's a job that doesn't require working outside in the weather year-round in butt-high mud.
Fire him.
Maybe I'm just biased because I can't stand the absolute laziness of the majority of people entering the work force now. Or maybe it's because I despise the entitlement attitude so many have adopted, that they think they are entitled because they're breathing.
Nah, he just needs fired.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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I still prefer my one person operation, but I understand your thinking and attitude towards employees/partners.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
I've had two employees that basically just weeded vinyl that I started at $10.00 per hour. If this guy was capable of doing some design work, running the machines, etc. I think your salary sounds pretty low. How many designers have we heard here that gripe about not getting $45.00 per hour for freelance design work?
On the other hand, people that are whiners will always be whiners no matter the salary. I'm surprised you've put up with his attitude this long.
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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For $8.50hr I certainly wouldn't be motivated to read books, work late, work weekends, or find ways of easing my employer's mental load. But, I would be motivated to find another job pronto. I'm surprised he's stayed around for a year.
Considering his attitude and your current relationship with him, it might be better to let him go. Otherwise, you could pay him a wage you both think is reasonable and fair, and hold him accountable for his attitude and performance. If he doesn't improve...buh bye.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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You could pay this guy $20 an hour and he would have the same lousy attitude because, well, that's just his work ethic... and it needs some adjustment..
time to can him.
Hey, ALL of us do more work than we're paid to do.. in our own minds... but you don't flat out tell your supervisor that... after a recent pay raise to boot... What a jerk!
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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8.50 per hour are you serious??? the undocumenteds here demand 10 an hour + lunch & get it. . .- I pay help $30 per hour - but they EARN it. . . .+ lunch & drinks after the work is completed for the day. . . . was driving thru lower Alabama (Mobile) the other day & the Burger Kings there were offering $8.50 per hour to start. . .there you go. . . .
[ July 13, 2006, 04:16 AM: Message edited by: Carl Wood ]
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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It's a tough call because you get what you pay for. The attitude, tardiness and disrespect deserves termination. But, around here $8.50 an hour would be ok pay for a high school kid that does weeding and applying of vinyl with very few mistakes and, perhaps, some customer service. This employee sounds a little young and fustrated and he may be looking for some direction in his job and in life. So, if you feel the kid can be saved and is worth the investment you've made so far, talk to him. But be careful, office politics can be a pain and trying to work with this employee can open a can of worms. Take him out to lunch and have a serious conversation about what he feels are the issues or problems he faces. Don't be surprised if he has some personal issues that need to be addressed. But if he can justify or quantify his complaints about his work environment, then put him in charge of making things right. Draw up some guidelines for him to follow and give him the opportunity to fix the problems. Have him write up a plan that includes costs and a timeline for implementation. Then, if it's feasable, make sure you give him the tools to follow through with the plan. It may prove to be a great learning experience for both of you. Also explain to him that if this opportunity that you're giving him does not work, further actions may be taken, which may include termination.
Good luck!
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Speaking as a former employee, I'm afraid the guy has to go. What's this about not showing up on time? And borrowing money?? Maybe it ain't fair, but when you're an employee you must be an asset. Otherwise, your employer will go down the chute, and so will you. If he's not building up a job reference, he should at least be building a portfolio.
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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At present I've got 10 employees. Management skills don't come easy but I've got a happy crew and productivity is high, so I must have learned something along the way. I regard my employees as assets not expenses.
First off, I would can that guy immediately, If you can't depend on an employee to show up on time, what can you depend on him to do. Dependability is one aspect of trust, and trust with me is a white or black issue, either I trust someone completely or not at all. Raises are earned, not based on future performance. Let him demonstrate worth for a 6 month period before justifying a raise. I expect employees to make a 100% effort irregardless of salary scale.
Salaries in general are a regional/local thing, minimum wage here is $6.50.
I do start unskilled labour at $8.50 with an $11 target within 3 years. That's not frozen in cement, I've got one employee who started at $8.50 16 months ago who is now making $12, she earned it, and became a key employee on merit and attitude and she took on more responsibility each week. She didn't ask for raises, they were given in recognition of her worth & responsibility.
Skilled labour starts at $13 with a $16 target. but that is negotiable. Targets move with inflation (roughly 2% annually) Benifits include medical, annual bonus, and matching contribution to rrsp (401k). No free lunches except at quarterly staff meetings, but we throw wicked parties (spouses included a couple of times a year). I do provide employee loans, but they are done as a payroll advance and repayed through payroll deductions.
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
Chuck, It sounds like you may have contributed to how this employee acts and in what he is now allowed to get away with. If you lend money and never set-up a plan to get it back it is not a loan it is a gift. I almost think you should write it off as just that a gift and next time you make an advance you make up a repayment plan. Really how is he supposed to pay it back it is more money then he makes in a month should he not of started paying it back over the whole year? If you let him come in late and not send him home then you set a new precedence, look at the free lunch, when you took that away did you explain to them that it was a pay cut? Because that is what it became. I know I could not survive on $8.50 an hr will their ever be a way for this employee or any of your employees to make a real wage/salary or is their only choice to quit and look for work someplace else? My bet is this guy must be thinking he will never have a family that he will be able to look after working in this field for you, people need a plan and motivation, does he have goals. You make reference to OCC that's TV and it draws in viewers and is way too much drama for a real good working environment. I say do not fire him, you are probably equally at fault, make a plan think about what you would really need to have fixed and then call a meeting. It looks like he is complaining to you about your equipment being JUNK and I understand that hurts but instead of getting mad set up a plan to fix the junk, what is the first thing this employee would like to see fixed maybe he has a point. Are any of his frustrations of any merit? I would give this employee a chance to fix things and empower him to make the changes if he thinks he can, kind of like what Checkers was saying. Maybe he needs part time work maybe he needs more pay maybe he needs more responsibility and maybe he needs to go on to bigger and better things. I truly believe employees are not for life and it is better to empower them to their next calling in life and not burn bridges.
-------------------- Steve Eisenreich Dezine Signs PO BOX 6052 Stn Forces Cold Lake, Alberta T9M 2C5 Posts: 774 | From: Cold Lake | Registered: Mar 2000
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How do you? Can you show me that? Where can I find books on.....? Any web sites I should be going to? Is this done right boss? What's next?
Find man/woman who never stops askin "how to" questions...pay him/her well... they are keepers...
When I hired for the property mgt. business, I just loved the employee who drove me nuts with questions. Three weeks and just showing up with no real interest in anything except the pay check and they were gone. The statement that "You have to kiss a lot of frogs before you meet your prince." is very true in regards to employees. Hire em and fire em till you get that one employee that you can really count on. This can be stressful to you as an employer, but worth the effort. I always told prospective hires that there was a strict three week trial period. If they fit in, they had a permanent job. If not, they would be gone after the third week. Fitting in did not mean that they could do everything needed after three weeks, but that they showed initiative and eagerness to learn. I never told them that I was looking for the above, just watched for it in their behavior. If it wasn't there naturally, they were gone.
[ July 13, 2006, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: William Holohan ]
-------------------- William "Irish" Holohan Resting...Read "Between Jobs." Marlboro, MA 01752 email: firemap1@aol.com Posts: 1110 | From: Marlboro, MA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Like Kissy said, wage is based on area. Min. wage in Michigan is 5.15. I would have startd him at 7.00 (and probbly would have people knocking down my door)and a year later, probbly 8.50. But I would not have put up with the attitude. I am an extremely patient person but I don't put up with an employee that doesn't respect me as their employer.
Recently I had a lady called from church that had helped me pack up after the flood. She was a really hard worker so that when she called asking if I had any odd jobs as her son needed some money quickly. I had her send him over (as I was overwhelmed with simply work at the time) and he worked for almost a week getting me caught up. He came in like gang busters and I thought seriously about hiring him.
I told him that my first rule is "NO CELL PHONE CALLS". That was the first rule that he broke. I talked to him about it and asked if he understood what I was saying. Yes he did. A couple days later he jumps up and runs outside. I have no idea what was going on so I peek outside and there he is talking on his cell phone and smoking a cig. That was it. I let him finish the day and sent him packing.
I tell my new employees that I evaluate them after 30, 60, and 90 days. I had an employee last year that did good for the 30 days and even after 90 but after 60 days he had some annoying traits that were getting to me. I talked to him about them and he had never realized he was doing this. That helped.
As far as the 1200.00, I'd garnish his wages until he quit or paid them in full.
[ July 13, 2006, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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Since when is it an employer's responsibility to make sure an employee gets paid enough to pay their bills?
Isn't it the employee's responsibility to make sure they can pay their bills on what they get paid, or reduce their bills, find a higher paying job or pick up more work if they have to?
Maybe people should learn to live within their means, or bust some ass to make it work. It's no business of employers what kinds of bills employees have. We have to live within our means just like anyone else and employees are going to get paid what we can afford to pay them.
$8.50 an hour is considered decent pay here. I mean, it still sucks but anyone in this town will tell you it's on the higher end of the payscale for jobs (there aren't many careers here). Construction pays more, the irony is mexicans are the only ones that can handle working in the heat here. Employers here don't have to pay more because white people are such total flakes, alcoholics and meth addicts, they don't show up for work, and the mexicans, even the legal ones, will work hard no matter what you pay them because they just wanna work.
Welcome to life in a Right to Work state.
Oh by the way, we have among the lowest unemployment rates in the country. Lots of low paying jobs for *EVERYBODY*!!
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Rough choice and given today's world, I'm inclined to say get rid of him. I know a guy who caught an employee walking out with merchandise in his backpack and didn't fire him. Shortly after being confronted and not getting fired, the employee had an "accident" and he ended up settling with the guy for $10,000.
Here in Athens, we have 30,000 students that flood the labor market, so you can pay those low wages, but you really do get what you pay for.
These kids will be gone in a couple years and while alot get paid minimum wage, any restaurant job here will fetch $8/hour so why would they want to really sweat for it.
$12-15 will get you a non-student, with some loyalty and is more typical for sign shop workers here, but they're not doing anything special for that.
I don't know what the solid guys in the long time sign businesses here make, but I'm guessing they're making around $50k with some benefits.
When you pay somebody right, they have stability and feel secure which is makes a much better employee than someone who loses sleep worrying if they can afford to go out with their sweetie this weekend and pay their rent too.
You can really wreck your business turning over alot of low end employees. Find someone who loves making quality signs and pay them well.
posted
Mike, I like your way of thinking... And thanks to the others.. I would like to say this... I am 45 and have NEVER been un-employeed... I worked 3 jobs at one time just to make ends meet. I struggled just like many of you have. I was raised to work hard for what you have and you will enjoy it more and take care of it. Minimum wage here is 5.15 (I think) so I thought I was paying good money... I did not realize the average no-skill worker made 12 bucks an hour.. I worked for fed-x about 5 years ago and worked my butt off for 18.00 an hour.. The work we do here is does not compare at all.. I am not a slave driver.. I would say I am pretty easy to get along with...I am the kinda of person that 20 bucks is 20 bucks... todays mentallity is "20 bucks? forget it... I would rather sit on my butt and watch TV instead of working.... I don't get it... maybe I am too old school...As the business grows.. so does my educations towards many things.. this pay stuff is a eye opener.. heck for all the headaches I have .. maybe I will sell the place and sit on my but for 20 bucks an hour... haha where do I sign up... I literally had no idea that people were getting paid the kinda money you guys have responded with....I just can't see it... And by the way.. the person I have refered to is MY SON I wanted to keep that hidden so I could get good responses... thank you to everyone... PS I have taken into consideration the wages you have responded to and gave him a raise .. you would not beleive the change in attitude I got today.. let's see if it continues......I let him read all the responses thinking it may help as well.... He is a good kid and has great potential..(We just have father / son issues)
-------------------- Chuck Coupland Coupland Signs 426 N. 11th Laporte, Tx. 77571 copesigns@aol.com Posts: 36 | From: LaPorte, Tx. USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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so Chuck, is that $8.50 an hour plus room and board? So thats 68 bucks for an 8 hour day and $340. for a 5 day week. Give him some incentive and have him get a job at Mickey D's for six months, I hear they have a great program there which teaches the meaning of life
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
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My vote goes to checkers for the most well thought out & reasonable reply - Pat - only contract labor - sometimes pay more than that! I only have to hire help once every 2-3 weeks or so - only on large projects involving 4"x6"x12' posts & larger - oh yea - don't mind paying the 50 to become a resident but then I'd have to post my ugly mug. . . .
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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Chuck sorry I posted 'afore I read your last reply - good job, Dad. Got 3 kids myself & am trying to instill the work ethic in my oldest 2 now - my 14 yo is starting to git it & become a well rounded young lady - she can run the weedeater, john deere tractor, drive my old ragged standard shift pickup, her Honda XR80, 3 & 4 wheelers, drives ANY boat, cooks & plays the Piano - -
Did I mention she's becoming quite the cook? she grilled Salmon earlier tonight on the weber grill - built the fire and all, seasoned with creole seasoning, butter & fresh ground black peppercorns - I think mom did the salad, though. . . .proud papa here . . .Carl
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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I Think this goes beyond the Wage issue. It seems to me this Guy just thinks the world owes him something and does't really want to earn it. We start at $8.00 an hour and we have a pile of Applications every week. We are known for having a Cool Atmosphere to work in and its Much better then being a Prison Guard or Micky D's worker.
I Really Like Dan's way of doing business and we are trying to pattern ourselve in that direction also.
posted
Hi again Chuck, I kind of thought you were talking about a son. Otherwise I would have said “can his a$$!” The OCC comment gave it away I'm probably going to sound like a bad guy with my comments, but by giving him a raise, what did you accomplish? Did anything in the shop change for the better? Did his productivity improve? Is he showing up on time now? Throwing money at this problem only bought you some time and a better attitude. It won't be long until his attitude will go downhill again and you're back to square one. Then you get to repeat the cycle all over again (gee, that sounds like fun!). I started ranting a little, but decided to delete the rest of my post
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Mike Pipes said "Maybe people should learn to live within their means, or bust some ass to make it work. It's no business of employers what kinds of bills employees have. We have to live within our means just like anyone else and employees are going to get paid what we can afford to pay them." ------------------------ You and my father would have got along just fine, probably better than he and I did. His motto was "It's a root-hog-or-die world, and if you don't like that, then b**ch at God, and see what happens." Of course he was right, but I still heard it for 44 years!
-------------------- Bruce Williams Lexington KY Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999
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Speaking as a "boss's kid" (even if I am 44), the best thing you can do is help your son find another job (i.e. - fire him). I've been where he is and he needs to get some perspective. The best way to get it is to go work for other people. It might help him respect you and the job he had with you just a bit more.
Being your father, its going to be hard for him not to take the dismissal personally. I would simply tell him that you love him and you feel that he needs to experience "life" a bit more. And after a year or so, if he still wants to work for you and can demonstrate more maturity (work ethic), you would be glad to have him back.
posted
a son is a terrible thing to waste. . . . it may be time for a lesson in reality - let 'em git a fast food job - or mow lawns or anything else & let 'em see the real world - I intend to let my oldest work at Sonic here locally when she's old enuff - she wants to & it's safe as anywhere else- I used to co-manage 3 Sonics here locally & know the atmosphere pretty well - you have to have a thick skin to endure the teenager attitudes - that's why I coulnd'nt hang - did'n need that kinda stress thankfully went full time on signs & graphics - actually the signs were paying the rent thru the "Sonic" days - -anyway I digress - I have a 21 YO stepson that won't even work at all - last job he had they had started him out at $12.50 per hour - a line assembly, manufacturing job - he quit after a week - I asked him why did you quit? , his only explanation was , "the boss is an a--hole - I said you better git used to it real quick - ALL bosses are arse holes - they are supposed to be that's why the're the boss - I tried to explain to him that I've had over 35-40 different jobs in my life & with the exception of 2 or 3 they are all that. But, you gotta at least learn a work ethic to start - he don't even grasp that idea - - -HELP !!!
[ July 16, 2006, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Carl Wood ]
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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I guess I'm too late here....but, while I appreciate Dan's response - and that's a pretty positive way of looking at it - I would have canned the "employee" based upon the description of the problems/attitudes Chuck relayed to us.
I was going to say that $8.50 an hour isn't jack for the job he described....heck, it's barely over minimum wage - and literally will be when the new minimum wage of $7 something an hour kicks in before long.
So, on that note....I think he was underpaying for the job.
But underpaying for the "employee" that he described - attitude/lack of work ethic/tardiness, etc? Not hardly. He should be thanking his sweet Maker that he was making that amount for the amount of oversight he needed.
Any halfway consistantly decent worker I would have said he was underpaying. As he described his son? I think he may have been overpaying him....and had it been just some kid off the street....I would have "off'd" him pronto.
McDonalds would have worked his butt off for a lot less than that.
I also wouldn't have given him a raise till he earned it. Big mistake giving a raise and then spelling out expectations. I bet you 10 to 1 nothing changes. We all love our kids and hate to see them struggle - but sometimes kids need a little tough love.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill: McDonalds would have worked his butt off for a lot less than that.
Yep they would have, or at least they would have tried. If he didn't come around, even McD's would can him if things weren't working out. At least that was the experience at the store I worked at which was so busy, $2,000 sales per hour was not uncommon. There simply was no tolerance for slacking employees there.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Mike Pipes: Wait wait wait...
Since when is it an employer's responsibility to make sure an employee gets paid enough to pay their bills?
I can't believe I just quoted Mike Pipes, but he's right
McD's wouldn't have canned him, they'd cut his hours until he quit. They always take the cowards way out.
Be honest with him. Give them a fair chance. The fact is that they agreed to work for that wage. That is much less than I start people at, but, they could have declined the position if the money wasn't sufficent.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3485 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Dan's response in my opinion is right on the mark. It is obvious that he has genuine respect and concern for the welfare of his staff. I think it is also obvious that his business is successful for more reasons than just design talent - he's probably done his homework on human resource development which leads to this 'win-win' employment scenario. Kudos Dan.
posted
Hey, I agree with Dan's approach wholeheartedly....but I wonder how long he would embrace the "feel good" philosophy if he caught one of his employees loading a company computer in their car....or caught them stealing his 30 inch monitor.
As Chuck describes it....his "employee" was in effect stealing from the company - he was stealing time by not working, not showing up to work, and wasting time arguing against his boss's instructions. He has technically stolen from the company on an ongoing basis.
And to add to the thievery, he made a routine habit of belittling the boss's efforts and equipment and performed a second-rate job.
It's one thing to make mistakes - that you could apply Dan's human resource philosophy to. But frankly, in this case (and I'm really not a hard-ass type of person - I'm a big believer in second chances) firing the kid and letting him see how much better he could do on his own would be in order.
Being that it's his kid? Well, that makes it more difficult....but I would have given him a month to find a new job and told him that he was welcome to return in 1 year if he decided that he didn't have it so bad after all.....and was willing to come back to work on MY terms.
Feel good fluff only goes so far....
Dan probably hasn't had as many issues as Chuck described because he was more discriminating in hiring in the first place.....and he paid a fair wage which I'm sure he matched with higher quality employee prospects from the start.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Good point Todd. Of course Chuck's scenario spells disaster and the 'only' recourse is dismissal. 'But' - if I may clarify - I suspect that a business with a human resource plan would have a system in place to avoid or deal with specific problems 'before' allowing them to get this far. To add to your computer theft example, I would guess that this particular employee first walked away with the mouse and the keyboard.
I know this topic started off as a "how much do you pay" question, but it seems there's lots of room to discuss the broader issue of employee mangagement. And, as Todd said, Dan was probably more discriminating during the hiring process. Maybe Dan will elaborate on this point in another thread?
posted
Hi, know you dont need another post on this, but gotta put my 2 cents in! My son graduated from 4 years college looking for a graphic design job right after 911...of course it was the worst time for employment for new artists at the time and he knew the ropes here so I tried using him, but he told me" Mom, if I work for you I wont be serious, I know you will let me slide, so I want to look somewhere else", and in the few short weeks until he found something, he did slack some. We felt he needed to experience the real world with others as bosses...so he got another job at a bigger sign co., and its great. He only designs, (I couldnt have had enough design work for him too.) He has worked steady for 4 years for them, and I am still looking for "mr Right" employee...have 2 diligent guys now, just slow learners..but they are respectful and give it their all and we will reward when raises are due. I feel the experience in a field is a valuable tool for them too, where else could you go to school and get paid. Our area is pretty low pay, we have paid up to 13 an hour, benefits were always available if someone stuck around long enough, but no workers around her. Maybe we will have better luck now, however , we are still holding out for the day our son gets tired of working for others and wants to come over with us! By then, maybe he will appreciate us more.
-------------------- Tom & Kathy Durham House Springs, MO Posts: 654 | From: House Springs, MO | Registered: Apr 1999
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