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When lettering a sign and wondering what colors go good as shadows or highlights, something tells me the answer and it always works.
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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I get a mental picture of a sign or a logo right at the very start, when a customer tells me the name of their biz, or is first describing to me what they are after.
The final product doesn't always reflect what my original vision is, but many times it does.
I can draw from mental pictures also, which is handy when you don't want to take the time to find references to go by.
Usually I like to have references tho, to clarify proper anatomy or details in whatever I'm drawing.
~nettie
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
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I have always been very lucky with this. Like Nettie, I can "see" something immediately. Usually it is not the client's vision tho! And yes I do look up references but only for clarification. But anyone who has seen me paint at a meet watches me like I'm nuts. I might paint a big red set of lips and then build the face around it. Or I'll be painting, seeing the thing in my head, and nobody "gets it" till it's finished. And sometimes not even then. I am like Bill, too. You just kinda "know" where to put the highlights and shadows. I can't remember where I put my keys or that important slip of paper with sign info on it, but I have a great inner eye. A lotta good it does me. love....jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Back when we were planning the Gidgle Ridge I walked our banker over the raw property. As we zig zagged over the property I gave him a detailed description of what I could see with my mind's eye... here we will slowly walk up a hill, into a cave, can you hear the big waterfall rushing right there, big flowers hanging down there... here we cross a log bridge... and on and on. On that wet and dreary winter day I walked him through the entire course in detail and described it to him how it would appear six months later, blooming in all its summer glory.
On opening day we played that same course together, only this time he confided that we could BOTH SEE it this time... and it was EXACTLY like I had described it to him.
While he liked the drawings I had later given him as part of the business plan he said it was my 'vision' and clear description which had convinced him to loan us the hundreds of thousands of dollars we needed to do the project. Although at the time he couldn't see what I described in detail he KNEW I could.
I can see projects clearly in my mind's eye and can hear the sounds and smell the flowers too. Its kind of abstract until I draw it out but it is definitely there!
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I too can visualize a project long before it becomes reality. Making a concept drawing can never capture the images in my head and describing it and selling to a client is never easy. Both seem to take more effort than actually building the images I see in my head.
-------------------- Happy Signing...... Marty
M.F. (Marty) Happy Signmaker Since 1974 Happy Ad Sign & Design Regina SK, Canada S4N 5K4 306-789-9567 happyad@sasktel.net www.happyad.ca
Get Happy & Get Noticed! Posts: 773 | From: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Jan 1999
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What I hate is when that visuality takes over into non artsy stuff. Like when someone is describing their recent root canal, or a nasty car accident....yuck! I wish I could turn it off sometimes. love....jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I can visualize a project and see all the inner workings and details. Layouts come fairly easily once I have a font to work with. But I have to have a picture when I'm painting a live object. Even something as simple as a wolf or a frog. I can't store those details in this mind of mine. In fact, I've always been afraid to try abstract art for fear of what I moght find in there! Ha!
Jill, yu crack me up. Tell me honestly, have you ever gotten to work and found your shoes don't match? I've done that a few times, I'll admit.
There is a book called "Drawing on the right side of the brain". I found it pretty interesting, in that it has exercises that are actually supposed to help kick that creative part of the mind into gear. Unfortunately, it didn't help me much because I think the left side (reasoning and memory)of mine is lazy, leaving the right side (creativity and imagination) to run amuck.
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I think basically a design, whether that be a sign or graphic image, evolves out of mental images we have collected over the years of being in the business.
The challenge, I would think, is in transferring that image onto paper (signage). That comes with time spent excercising that process. I'm still working on it though, but because of my experience starting as a graphic artist prior to being in the sign designing business, these images are fairly available when needed. And finally, my question to myself always is 'are these conceptual factors practical in context to the sign I'm designing?"
Just my thoughts.....
-------------------- Glenn DeZion Sign Company 46-020 Alaloa Street M-5 Kaneohe, Hawaii 96744 Posts: 84 | From: Kaneohe, Hawaii | Registered: Dec 2000
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I can visualize 3D objects in my head then get right to building them in real life without plans. Pottery, sculpture, mechanical parts, whatever.
I can visualize 2D drawings and such but when it's time to go on paper it never looks like it did in my head.
If there was a device you could plug into your head and it would just duplicate whatever you're thinking about, I could have some serious fun.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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Well I'm one of those not so lucky ones I guess. Things have to evolve in front of me not in my mind. When I paint a face it is a process of starting with my brush on the canvas and guiding it as it evolves. My mind can make up the features and guide my hand, but it is happening in real time in front of me, not from some preformed vision in my mind. I'm like Ernie - it's a blank screen in there. If I close my eyes and try really hard to visualize something like say a yellow square, I get nothing. I think the scariest thing for me would be to be blind, I'm so visually oriented. I do have mental images of things, they just aren't a mental visual. More like a verbal image than a visual one. Does that make any sense? I've always wondered if we see things the same and just interpret them differently. What surprises me is that a lot of people who don't seem to have an artistic streak often claim to be able to visualize in their mind.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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I'm kind of like Mike. I can visualize in 3D but converting it to 2D is sometimes a challenge. Maybe it's because I'm young and my skills haven't developed enough yet.
Interpretation is a totally different story. People definitely interpret things differently. Have 2 people read a Shakespeare novel and they will interpret them totally different. People will even interpret the same color differently. Your idea of green is probably totally different than my idea of green in terms of value and saturation. This has always been an interesting thing to me.
-------------------- Kelsey Dum Dum Designs Sherwood, AR 72120 501.765.2166 kelsey@dumdesigns.com Posts: 827 | From: Sherwood, AR | Registered: Oct 2005
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Sometimes I can clearly see a solution, and sometimes I can't. The uncertainty drives me crazy sometimes. Over the years I've gotten better, so it must have to do with the images stored in the brain's visual library.
Sometimes I can take a ride on the wings of epiphany, and have a previously-unseen image unfold effortlessly on the sketchbook in front of me. Other times, when the vision isn't there, it's fumbling around in the dark for a flashlight.
Even when I don't have a clear idea of what the solution is, I seem to know what it isn't.
It's strange, but I also think my 3D images are clearer than my 2D images. I wonder why that would be.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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Russ, I think it's because we EXIST in a 3D environment. Everything that we see, except for 2D images obviously, is a 3D object.
I visualize better dimensionally also. I think it's only natural, for me anyway, to visualize and work more effectively with things in their "natural" state than having to force a 3D object into two dimensions.
Anyway, that's my take.
-------------------- Jon Androsky Posts: 438 | From: Williamsport, PA | Registered: Mar 2002
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I think the 3D thing is a subconcious skill we as artists have inherited...little kids seem to have no problem expressing themselves in a 2D image. It's seeing things in 3D and the fact that we as artists can break down an image to simplified geometrical shapes that separates us from non artists...getting a little too deep there, sorry. LOL
-------------------- Kelsey Dum Dum Designs Sherwood, AR 72120 501.765.2166 kelsey@dumdesigns.com Posts: 827 | From: Sherwood, AR | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike Pipes: If there was a device you could plug into your head and it would just duplicate whatever you're thinking about, I could have some serious fun.
Let us be thankful there is no such device, LOL.
It took me years to develop the ability to "see" things like that but I can now. Now I can see the tag the customer wanted: process blue on fire red background, Old English - all caps... beautiful
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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I'm not lucky at all, I have to work hard to come up with ideas. I need lots of info before I can start. When I finally have a decent idea it usually goes fast from there. I envy folks who can "see" in advance.
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I can visualize in 3D but converting it to 2D is sometimes a challenge. Maybe it's because I'm young and my skills haven't developed enough yet. Kelsey- I think you are absolutely right- I remember almost the day that I changed from 2D visuals to 3D. It was about year 4 of my signmaking "career".(if you can call it that!) It will come to you faster though because you are young and a quick study. Its obvious- you are the age you are and you are smart enough to spend your "spare" (if you call it that) time here- learning from some pretty sharp signmakers. I was lucky to stumble on the letterheads before I even started making signs- but if it wasn't for letterheads I'd have given up the business long ago. Anyway I digress.........
My husband gets annoyed with me because I no longer try to explain to him what I am trying to do in a project-he doesn't know what I am doing half the time until it is pretty near done. Frustrates him I guess. But I find even if I try to explain it to him he doesn't understand because my verbal skills suck. And his visualization sucks.I call it thinking in 3D. I can see the sign but I can't describe it very well. But I can draw it. Is that a right brain left brain thing? This past winter Clare was making gate posts for the end of the lane. And he kept drawing them in chalk on the floor of the shop. (Then I would come along and sweep the floor ). When they were finally built and forklifted to the end of the lane he said "hmmm- I like them but they didn't look like that in the shop, I just couldn't figure out how they would look." I looked at him with my mouth open- couldn't believe he didn't know exactly what they would look like before he started. I did.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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Russ, hope you are right, it came across as a sarcastic shot across my bow. David, if I'm wrong I forgive my posture, if not feel free to email me directly -- the last thing I want to do is make any enemies around here.
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When studying art, we had exercises using glass objects to draw. We would have to imagine what all surfaces of that might look like (thinking dimensional), as well as being aware of factors such as how a transparent object reacts to it's light source as in the science of refraction (light passing through clear objects) and it's refractive index (bending of light in a these objects).
By using Adobe Illustrator, we would digitally draw an object then applying what is called a 'gradient mesh' tool built into the program. We would then attempt to place this mesh on the drawn object at specific sections or key points. It would then automatically wrap or form it 'self around the object, detecting it's contours or shape in 3D.
The real challenge however, is actually in the reshaping of this mesh by way of manipulating it's nodes so that it would wrap or create a pattern for the shading to form realistically within context of the shape or objects. Then later appropriate colors would be applied within specific areas of the mesh, allowing for it to blend or form a natural color transition or gradient on and around the surface of the object....thus we have the meaning 'gradient mesh.' This stuff may sound elementary to some but it is an interesting (challenging) way of studying objects in 3D.
Anyways, didn't mean to get so technical but by utilizing this digital mesh on drawn objects surely encourages seeing things in 3D and developed a good sense of seeing our world in it's real-life dimensions.
Reasons why it would seem difficult to produce is because seeing only in 2D is a conditioned or learned response since birth and by not being challenged to see other wise, we have subconsciously seared our inner eyes in comprehending this 3rd dimension. But all is not lost. On that same token we do have this tremendous potential of actually seeing things in 3D, naturally.......If in some way enticed to exercise that God-given ability to doing so.
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Karyn says I have the ability to "pull shyt outta my butt" when it comes to making up designs.
I've always had the ability to see where I wanted a project to end up. The real challenge is trying to visualize what a CUSTOMER has in their head, including the steps it will take to get there, and hit the mark. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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I can see what I want to do in my mind before I commit it to paper. That is one of the reasons I can design as on the fly like I do.
I think it ia an incredible gift. Thanks God!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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If I ever get an image, design, etc. actually produced that matches what I see in my head; I'll have to quit. I strive for it constantly, but always fall a little short. A lot of what I sense has been said above;
I think it's an incredible gift. Thanks God! well said Bruce!
-------------------- Bill Dirkes Cornhole Art LLC Bellevue, Ky. Goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are. Posts: 591 | From: Bellevue,Ky. US | Registered: Aug 1999
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I guess I'm one of the "blessed" ones! I have always been able to "see" it before it's done.
Holy crap! Wait a minute! I can see my self sitting in a Ferrari on the pole at the Formula One race at Indy today!!!!!!!!!
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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I picture things pretty clearly. Sometimes it takes a while to get a picture, I have to chew on some ideas before inspiration hits. If I close my eyes and relax, I can jump right to putting things together, but if I'm not careful, I fall asleep.
It's similar with music, once I can hum something I can play it. For music, there is interval training, where you listen to notes different "distances" from each other and find their relationship. I don't know if there are any exercises that help on visualization.
Doug, that sounded like a compliment to me too. The design you came up with for my design critique a while back was in my top 3 favorites along with Bob Stephens and Arthur Vanson's designs.
posted
I can visualize 3D and 2D, and I'm pretty good at sketching out what's "up there". (There are some good art books on "visualization" that can help you develop those skills, btw. I even had a class where the instructor would give us a verbal description and we had to draw what he was telling us. then he'd show us a photo of the thing and we'd compare.)
I also have a feedback loop -- visualize, sketch, look at the sketch and refine in my head, then make a new sketch. Looking at it "outside" my head helps me to fill in the details or get a fresh perspective on it and refine it or improve it.
My probably is that I don't have the brush skills (yet!) to paint what I can visualize. for me, that's the most frustrating part.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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interesting thread. I just found it today, so I'm a little late on commenting on some of the replies... but Jonathan said "everything we see is 3D, except 2D images" ...that got me thinking that while everything we look at may be 3D (with noted exceptions) ...by the time we "see" it, it has been reduced to a 2D image projected onto our retina... & it's our minds ability to ...guess, remember, or interpolate what the actual object has going on in the 3rd dimension that affects how well we recognize or understand the breadth of what we see.
So, I think it is a similar function of the brain to "guess, remember, or interpolate" what a 2D representation might look like in order to visually create a convincing 3D image within a 2D format. Foreshortening, shading, perspective & distortion are not common terms for everyone... but they are commonly perceived in everyday life.
I think one of the sad things we allow our brains to do is to filter out (from further scrutiny) what we "recognize" at first glance & to only really look deeper at appearant "new" information. In this way, the childlike wonder of the sights (& all sensory stimulation) of the world is lost on many of us in our daily lives. This same "filtering" process also inhibits how well we can remember what 2D "tricks" are required to draw 3D objects.
Going back to the "noted exceptions" of seeing 2D images. I thought it interesting to consider that even these exist in 3D & often the Foreshortening, shading, perspective & distortion on the page of a book, the TV screen, or art on the wall are things that our brain may filter for us... creating the illusion that they are an "exception"
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). When they were finally built and forklifted to the end of the lane he said "hmmm- I like them but they didn't look like that in the shop, I just couldn't figure out how they would look." I looked at him with my mouth open- couldn't believe he didn't know exactly what they would look like before he started. I did.![[Group Hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
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