posted
O.K. My first real Letterhead experience was the Zoo Meet this Past weekend. Great fun! The most important sign related thing I took away from that experience I think was to Prioritize my layouts. I gotta admit.. My confidence is fair when it comes to actually fabricating the sign. I'm not afraid of gold leaf , glue chipping, carving...etc etc. (this is not to say I'm "good" at any of these things, just that none of it scares me to give it a go) However, sometimes that blank page or computer screen gives me the Hebejeebees. It's nothing for me to spend 3-5 hours on a simple darn layout...GRRR. I assume this will get better with time and my eyes get better trained.
Picking fonts...figuring out how to make the software do what I want..laying out...adding mood with elements etc etc etc. can take hours. Is this NORMAL?
Anyway I seem to always get stuck on colors. I try to begin with the end in mind but I tend to play with color combinations way too long.
Here's a layout I've been working on.
1) Does it pass the Letterville test? (This means critiques welcome)
2) What do yall think about color?
3) I have a panel shape but thought it might be fun to see what others come up with.
This will be a dimensional panel.
Oh and Gary Anderson was right. It does help to start by hand sketching ideas. I don't end up with anything very close to the sketches but it does get my Right brain working again.
-------------------- Bill Jarvis Rookie432@AOL.com
"A customer is someone who deals with you. A GOOD customer is someone who refuses to deal with anyone else." Posts: 81 | From: Cambridge, Ohio, USA | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
it seems i always struggle with design...or maybe i'm creatively blocked from other work piling up. i think its hard sometimes in this business doing everything yourself...well it is for me at times. when you think of it...it isn't natural to wear so many hats...as far as the right and left brain theories go anyway.... but your design is pleasing to the eye so far...i'm sure once you place a shape to it and tweak it i think it will be very nice. i like your color choices.
[ June 23, 2006, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Karyn..I think you nailed it perfectly for many one person shops!!
quote: i think its hard sometimes in this business doing everything yourself
It is hard enough to come up with creative and innovative ideas..let alone having to actually produce the final product..AND find time to bill the job at a profitable price.
I can bang out profitable work for repeat customers as easy as anything.
Spending the time to do some creative thinking on a one time project takes time for me. I struggle. The end product and the end "paycheck" are worth it though.
I just finished a 25' graphic job on a sailboat today...I enjoyed doing it, from inception to completion, but I could have made a lot more dollars and profit just "banging out" something I have done hundereds of times before.
I really do enjoy the interaction with sailboat owners/private truckers/new business owners..THEY are so excited about what I can offer them..It makes the "creative anguish" more palletable to me.
Making money is what self employment should be all about..but having fun, while making money, is an added benefit!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
It must be my monitor, but I can barely see the ampersand. So from a distance it can probaly not be seen on a sign either, leaving a big white spot. Definitely bring up the phone number. It could overlap the ampersand too or make it smaller(the ampersand). And I'd choose the same font that you have in the top line (Copperplate?) instead of adding another font to the layout. Bill, I don't know how long you have been doing this, but in the beginning it is normal to spend too much time on layouts. I find that I am often faster when deciding with a little sketch what I want and then go to the computer to recreate it. Otherwise I can end up playing with fonts and colours on the screen forever.
posted
Hi Bill, The Zoo Meet was a blast - hope you caught Gary's seminar on layout - after 35 years, I finally figured out fat borders are GOOD!!
Try arcing the "Noble", keep the phone straight, do ampersand in blue and make it smaller. Add an underline extending from ampersand under Building Remodel to tighten it up and change the stars to the gray shadow color. There ya go, that'll be 2 cents, please.
If you'll e-mail a vector file to me, I'll be glad to tweak it a bit.
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Bugger!! I was on a tight schedule this weekend and went ahead and milled it already. It's a darn shame too cause I think Lotti's right about the phone # and Sonny's suggestion on the arced Noble would have been nice. Not a total loss yet though as I can alter colors a bit. I haven't quite figured out how to show dimension with X3 yet but the "Noble" and "Building and Remodel" will be raised off the backround. The ampersand is 'pocketed' into the backround. So I can darken it a bit. My thought was that for infomational purposes the ampersand wasn't that important so I would fade it and make it more of a decorative feature. The top line and phone # are chisel carved ino the backround.
Lotti I have had my router for 6+ years and have made signs with it when I had a paying customer. Only recently have I decided to make Sign's the focal point of my business and got serious about learning the trade. I found that not only were signs profitable compared to some of the other jobs I took, but far more rewarding when done right. Now I want to do it right ...but I'm finding that its like wanting to be a better golfer. Instead of just steping up to the ball and swinging you start to overthink it. Keep your head down,hold your arm stiff, keep your shoulders square, rotate your hips, slow down your backswing...etc etc. Then I still duff the ball. Ha
Now I have all this info on Signs and am thinking...make sure theres enough negative space, make sure its readable, use only one decorative font, use the visual center, prioritize info, decide foreground-middleground-backround...etc etc etc. Then I still duff the ball. Ha ha
Next time I'll make sure I have more time to incorporate suggestions before I have to mill the darn thing. However I am appreciative and still interested in how to make it better. I aint too skeered to learn.
Here's the panel border already cut but I did try to alter the colors to your suggestions. The border is beveled all the way around.
-------------------- Bill Jarvis Rookie432@AOL.com
"A customer is someone who deals with you. A GOOD customer is someone who refuses to deal with anyone else." Posts: 81 | From: Cambridge, Ohio, USA | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Bugger!! I was on a tight schedule this weekend and went ahead and milled it already. It's a darn shame too cause I think Lotti's right about the phone # and Sonny's suggestion on the arced Noble would have been nice. Not a total loss yet though as I can alter colors a bit. I haven't quite figured out how to show dimension with X3 yet but the "Noble" and "Building and Remodel" will be raised off the backround. The ampersand is 'pocketed' into the backround. So I can darken it a bit. My thought was that for infomational purposes the ampersand wasn't that important so I would fade it and make it more of a decorative feature. The top line and phone # are chisel carved ino the backround.
Lotti I have had my router for 6+ years and have made signs with it when I had a paying customer. Only recently have I decided to make Sign's the focal point of my business and got serious about learning the trade. I found that not only were signs profitable compared to some of the other jobs I took, but far more rewarding when done right. Now I want to do it right ...but I'm finding that its like wanting to be a better golfer. Instead of just steping up to the ball and swinging you start to overthink it. Keep your head down,hold your arm stiff, keep your shoulders square, rotate your hips, slow down your backswing...etc etc. Then I still duff the ball. Ha
Now I have all this info on Signs and am thinking...make sure theres enough negative space, make sure its readable, use only one decorative font, use the visual center, prioritize info, decide foreground-middleground-backround...etc etc etc. Then I still duff the ball. Ha ha
Next time I'll make sure I have more time to incorporate suggestions before I have to mill the darn thing. However I am appreciative and still interested in how to make it better. I aint too skeered to learn.
Here's the panel border already cut but I did try to alter the colors to your suggestions. The border is beveled all the way around.
-------------------- Bill Jarvis Rookie432@AOL.com
"A customer is someone who deals with you. A GOOD customer is someone who refuses to deal with anyone else." Posts: 81 | From: Cambridge, Ohio, USA | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
It's actually a pretty neat looking sign with the shape around it. I like what you did to the ampersand. I often find out what I could have done better when I look at the finished product.
posted
Bill, not trying to be harsh, but here are the things I first noticed about your layout:
There's a bunch of negative space in the sign.
The negative space above the "building & remodle" is uneven, because it's done in lower case letters.
The border shape is neat, but kind of looks upside down.
The stars steal too much attention from the name.
So here's a 7(?) minute pencil sketch I did:
This is obviously REALLY rough, but it's here for layout purposes. I thought of this layout within about 5 seconds, (or less) of seeing this thread.
There are methods to do this, here are some thoughts:
There was an article in (Signcraft?) magazine some years back, the guy was saying that you should see the words as blocks, or shapes. This REALLY helps with layout.
I wanted this whole name tight together, negative space squeezed out.
I wanted the name Noble to look noble, for obvious reasons. So I wanted the 'impact' of Impact font, what the oldtimers called 'stovepipe'. But that's a rather utilitarian font, not something I often do names with, so I drew a roman look to it. I still wasn't satisfied, so I tried to give the roman a 'trumpet' look, most noticeable on the 'N'.
The ribbon is just another shape/block element.
Having the area code in little lines like that looks interesting, and saves space. Probably makes the 'regular' part of the number more legible.
I wasn't trying to do a classic 'natural layout' as Mike Stevens called it, it just ended up that way.
The border shape could use to be tweaked, but this is just a quicky.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Truth is the phone number is probably the most important thing on the layout and it got the least prominance ...it should be at least as stron or second to the name. If you drop the stars you could increase the name size (remember everything you add makes everything else smaller.
Get Mike Stevens "Mastering Layout" and read the heck out of it ...if you already have Mikes book ...open it.
All in all your layout isn't bad ...just not as effective as it could be. Keep at it ...one day you'll look up and it just comes to you, mark that day down it's the one that says "I'm a journeyman"
Something else that will help you is to hand draw your layout using "blocks" to simulate copy and then go to the computer. Designing on the computer can be rough without a simple idea in mind before you start and never do a layout without (predetermined) perameters...it will kill the best of layouts.
Hope this helps...please consider this as encouragement not displeasure.
Stay at it!
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
Hey, I welcome any criticism as long as it's backed up by helpful solutions. And you have done that. Funny as I was carving my inside corners out on the panel last night and noticed the "extra" negative space. Thought some may get eaten up by the shadow of raised letters when they get applied. I did drop the outline in "Noble" when I posted the layout the second time wich didn't help. I was concerened about making "Noble" too prevelent for two reasons. One it's the name of a county here and two) this company is fairly new so what he does is as or more important. I do wish I made the phone number like yours though.
Banners! I love Banners and scrolls. I wish I could put them in all my signs. I need some more practice to ensure I'm using them properly though. Your application here is cool.
I'm no handpainter yet either but I think I will give it a try on this panel. I think I can incorporate those lines you and Sonny suggest. It does help "tighten" things up. I may even put that shadow line back around "Noble". I bought some new Mack brushes at the Zoo and been wanting to give them a go.
7 minute layout? ... yeah yeah yeah rub it in.
By the way this panel is for the guy who is currently building my NEW SHOP. YIPPEE!! 1500 squre feet of playground for me. All workspace too as my old "shop" will be used to store all materials. Any reccomendations on a workshop must haves for signmakers? I'm really getting to start with a blank slate.
Thanks Bill
-------------------- Bill Jarvis Rookie432@AOL.com
"A customer is someone who deals with you. A GOOD customer is someone who refuses to deal with anyone else." Posts: 81 | From: Cambridge, Ohio, USA | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Hi Bill, there's some good advice above, and James has done well! With your original design, I feel the stars, if you wanted them, needed the same centreline as Noble, not the same baseline as Noble. Also, for the panel, I can't help wondering why all the angles & corners in the border- the panel shape needs to complement the layout, not draw too much attention from it, and I keep wondering about the internal curves with the external 90 degree angles- just too busy for me! I'd have liked the bottom arc balanced with some slight curve on the top. "another fine project" should not have been longer than Noble, in my opinion. Also, maybe it's the grammar, or it's just me, but "Building & Remodelling" seems to me what's needed there, while "Building & Remodel" is lacking the "ling" to make the words go together well.
Best wishes- hope thast helps!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Wellll.. Ian if I wanted to sound smart I would say that the border is a direct result of Gary Anderson's theory that a panel should grab your attention first. Therefore the border shape I designed was for that purpose.
However If I was being honest it was just because I wanted it to look neat. (blush) o.k. o.k. I may have gone a little overboard, but it does look cool milled as a complete bevel.
I'll be archiving all of these suggestions to use on my next panel design.
The stars were mainly to break up negative space and when I moved them to the center the space went out of balance. same reason for the "remodel" I thought I might not need the "ing" to get the point across and it balanced better without it. See I told you I end up overthinking it.
thanks for the input.
-------------------- Bill Jarvis Rookie432@AOL.com
"A customer is someone who deals with you. A GOOD customer is someone who refuses to deal with anyone else." Posts: 81 | From: Cambridge, Ohio, USA | Registered: Oct 2000
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