posted
Here's a photo of a wall that we have been asked to bid on. The client would like individual, stud mounted, metal- dimensional letters (Times Bold). Any advise on how to make the installation successful is appreciated. BTW, we have done several wall jobs over the years, however, most have been brick with stucco. Thank you.
-------------------- Bruce & Deb Newton Graphic Lettering San Marcos, CA Posts: 126 | From: San Marcos, CA | Registered: Sep 2001
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Beautiful Wall. How Big are the letters? In the past I have taken a pattern of the letters to the wall, taped in place and traced the mortar lines. Then try to have as many studs as possible hit the mortar. For the rest a really good bit, starting small and going bigger so not to crack the rocks. If the letters are big enough some pads would be an option. Anf I use an epoxy, not silicone when the letters are that low. You could suggets a background panel which would eliminate the problem.
posted
Easy! This is one Lat does all the time. Cut your copy from aluminum, sintra, PB, whatever.... Make a paper pattern from your original layout, use a fine-line marker to mark the spots for your studs, poke a hole through those spots in the paper, lay the paper pattern over a sheet of cheap plywood on sawhorses and tape it down or staple it, use the marker and make a dot though the holes or just use your drill with a bit the same size as the stud diameter, lay the copy on the pattern, go from the backside and mark through the plywood holes onto the backs of the characters. Oof!! One long sentence, no? Now bond the pads to the back of your characters, let them cure and put the studs in. Take your plywood to the jobsite, hold it against the surface, mark through the holes onto the wall, use a drill (Lat uses a carborendum(?) that's a hammer kind of drill) and drills the holes slightly larger than the studs, then he fills the holes with silicone, inserts the copy with the studs into the holes and uses a board that's however thick the standoff should be and uses that behind each character to keep things equal. That makes sense, no? It really does go fast that way. ANYway, these are all Lat's words, not mine. I know how to do it be he just told me what to type. He's eating lunch.
me
Lat says that if its steel you'll need to mark and blind drill and tap the backs of the letters for the studs.
And Lat says the reason to use silicone is so that if one is damaged it can be removed and repaired. If you use epoxy you're sorta stuck with that, no?
posted
Mount the paper pattern to card board, coro or thin plywood and drill through with a smaller than needed bit (As Bill said, not crack the stone) then open up the holes with a larger bit.
To get the letters on the same plane, bang a stake to the left and right of the overall width, and run 2 or 3 strings across parallel to the wall. This will allow you to get the letters in and keep them on the same verticle plane.
I would do a "Dry Run" without glue first to make sure they are right, then remove and re-insert with epoxy.
Show us how they turn out!
-------------------- Tom & Sharon Giampia Creative Image Design Port Chester, NY Posts: 285 | From: Port Chester | Registered: Mar 2001
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I can tell you for sure that if they're large letters and you're mounting them in stone you'd better use something heavier and stiffer than cardboard for a template! How do I know? Cuz we were called to redo one like that after a sign company messed up the holes and couldn't get the studs to line up. The Architect got really mad and kicked them off the jobsite. You really do want to use a "vertical drill jig (?) on the surface of the plywood to drill your holes, and Lat says that if you use a smaller bit first on rocks you're definitely going to crack them cuz of expansion (?) from the second, larger bit. He says that you need to use the proper carborendum bit size to begin with so you can "evacuate as you drill". And don't get mad at me! This is what Latigo said when I asked him.
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what happened to taping the pattern to the brick wall and start drilling?.....unless im not understanding this topic correctly.
all of our letters come with studs with a pattern maybe this one is not. my apologies if im incorrect in this
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
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If I might clarify for her a bit...... The reason for using plywood as a scondary pattern is that you can use a drill jig to support it dead flat to the vertical. Mounting large characters with steel studs requires the use of a jig to keep the pilot holes true. Its possible to bend the studs 6 ways from sunday to get things to fit, maybe, but I prefer a character with 4 to 6 studs that simply slides into the holes unimpeded. With an irregular surface its that much more important to use a solid pattern and a vertical jig.
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Using plywood as a base upon which to rest a drilling jig is a great idea. I've installed many letters in the past 30 years and never thought of this.
Regarding the cracking of stone: This is so easy to do. Sometimes the rocks seem to almost explode. I don't know if it's better to start big or small with bits. I never paid enough attention to the bit size to catch on to that. And I have cracked stone with both large and small. I think the particular hammer drill can make a difference, though. I prefer one with a shorter, faster action. A Milwaukee, for example, as opposed to a Hilti. The bigger hammer blows of the Hilti seemed to crack more stones.
I love the look of letters on large stone like this.
Brad in Kansas City
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I normally would just mount the paper pattern to 1/4" luan. Then mount the pattern and luan to the wall using removable anchors and hammer-drill away. I haven't had a job go bad yet <knocking on wood> The luan keeps the drill bit from wandering.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
If the wall is flat, a paper pattern works. With lots of texture, you don't want the bits to "walk" as you drill. A small change will translate into very crooked lettering. That's where the plywood comes into play.
I align the plywood and drill one of my holes and Tapcon the plywood to the wall. I check the alignment and Tapcon another spot. Now that my pattern is secure and level, I can continue drilling all my holes without fear they will misalign because of the shape of the surface. When done drilling, back out the Tapcons and start installing letters.
I like the string idea for keeping the letters on the same plane.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5095 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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thanks for the explanation i just did not understand the resoning but now i do. thanks to all for not taking my question the wrong way.
we have been doing the paper thing for a long time and sure drill bits walk and sometimes you cannot put a hole where it should be, and of couse that is dealt with during the install
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
If possible, would you try to align the studs with the mortar, or try to avoid landing at the rock/mortar junction, or just use the standard Gemini stud spacing?
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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Another Trick we use on Uneven surfaces. After we make our Papee Template. ( I do this buy Plotting out the copy on Plotter paper then laying the paper ove a sheet of blue Foam and pushing the letters through the paper into the foam Making a hole.) Tape up your pattern to the wall. Then I take a Star Drill (This is a form of Chisel that they used before RotoHammers) and use my Hand Hammer to make a small starter indent in the rock.(This help elimintes the bit walk then work my way up) Drill holes with a 1/8 Rotohammer then work your way up from there. Usally 5/16 is more then enough for us.. Blow out holes then Test Fit all letters the fix with silcone or Epoxy
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One long sentence, no? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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This is what Latigo said when I asked him.
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