""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3489 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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I have your products here in stock, and I use them, just not for wet application. So your sideways remarks are not necessary. Why can't we both be right? Let it go already!
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3489 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
What's with the personal attacks? Just because you don't share Roger's pride in his product, or disagree with his method of application, is no reason to put the Man down on a public board.
This sort of crap has to stop. We're all here to learn. I may not be as wise as some of you seasoned pros, but I am smart enough to know there is more than one way to skin a cat. I like to think I am also tolerant, and have enough respect for my fellow Letterheads to listen to all who are successful at what I want to do.
Some will read this as another scolding by a guy who feels he has the right to run his show in an environment where all feel welcome. What's so hard about that?
I've tried both wet and dry. For me, I like the option of applying wet. It gives me an opportunity to reposition something without destroying the vinyl. Just my way of saving another baby Vinyl from slaughter.
Let's agree to a truce here. I'll promise not to gloat over the fact I can handletter or spray the job. All I ask is that you guys refrain from putting me down because I suck at dry application. Is that fair?
When responding to future posts, let's try to answer the original question. Debate all the different ideas and your reason for doing things your way. All I ask is that you refrain from taking things to the next level and attacking a person's integerty just because you don't like his style.
[ May 25, 2006, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
I didn't see anyone mention that you need to let the styrene outgas. You need to remove the protective liner that come on it, and then let it "breathe". If you don't do that, you'll get tiny bubbles after you apply your vinyl, no matter which method you like.
I use the center hinge method and something that size I'd probably do wet. I work by myself too, and there's always that chance you'll drop the corner, or the vinyl will stick to itself.
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Suelynn, my only problem with the outgassing theory is, why doesn't the protective liner get bubbles in it? Still, I have experienced what you said from time to time, so who knows?
I also understand what you're saying Steve, but there are tons of highly skilled people that swear by dry only, their opinion counts a lot too. I keep all of Roger's products around also, like Rick said, when I feel nervous about the install.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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I'm also sorry i started a war,.. but as I said I realize there is many different ways to apply vinyl, and i'm willin to learn everyway until i can feel comfortable with the right techique for me! and every one has a right to that and their own opinion! and thank you for all ur help and different opinion that i have now to try!!
-------------------- Joanna Barnett Blackfoot, ALberta Posts: 207 | From: Nipawin | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Thank you Steve (though it shouldn't be neccesary to calm the boys down)insults and namecalling are better left on non industry sites.
I put up with a lot of flack here and other sites, usually by someone who had a misunderstanding about using application fluids, I have managed to help a number of them but only if they call without an attitude, I don't wish to call and bug anyone.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Joanna, some substrates come with a protective plastic layer. They've colored it recently, but it used to be clear. I've never been burned, but one guy in a shop I used to work at had to peel all the protective plastic off-with the graphics he had applied to 10 signs and hang them on the wall. The wall of shame. Be a little paranoid about checking until you get super familiar with stuff.
The concept of outgassing is kind of like paint drying. Plastics emit gas as they age. The newer the plastic, the more gas is coming off. Alot of "new car smell" is the new upholstery and plastic parts outgassing. It can cause adhesion problems.
Hope everything's going good for u. <--speaking your language.
posted
Roger, I challenge you to find ONE insult! You keep talking about insults & name calling... but the posts don't back it up.
YOU started into your "belittling" remarks because Rick doesn't need the crutch of wet apps & he felt he had a right to share that information with a new member specifically looking for guidance in vinyl application ...something Rick does every day (& in the real world conditions of a profitable sign shop) Rick didn't "find you" belittling... YOU decided to be that way.
I'm no stranger to spewing my own blunt outspoken opinions... but at least I'm not going to be afraid to own up to them.
It's not an "insult" to point out that you DO attempt to discredit, minimize, disparage & malign other professionals who you disagree with.
Maybe you think it's insulting when I referd to your "incessant over-exaggerated "bang" from the mouthpiece" ...well, I consider it just one more of my blunt outspoken opinions... (I also know many others here share that opinion of your exaggeration)
I don't deny that I can be blunt & outspoken to a fault.
[ May 25, 2006, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
Same here Roger. No name calling or personal attacks here either. I don't know where you or Steve get that from. I simply disagree with you. That's it, nothing else. I don't attack people, and I didn't attack you. Again, I HAVE & USE YOUR PRODUCTS, just not for wet application. No amount of rude treatment will change my mind.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3489 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Listen, I responded to Rick saying "he dosn't do wet apps because he always has problems", so I offered my "tech tips" section of my website so he may find out what hes been doing wrong, now tell me how that is "belitteling ?
And while you two are at it, please tell me that you wouldn't consider it an insult if someone (on an open forum) called you a "incessant overexagerated mouthpiece", or Ricks' insult of my "sideways remarks" ?
Fase it Doug you have had an ax to grind with me since a year ago when I called you on your negative remarks about how this site was run.
Guess you figured it a good time to ball. the scale?
Believe me, I will not again offer anything to either of you.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Hiya Joanna, I don't think I welcomed you to the board yet. So welcome aboard Don't sweat the other conversation here. These things happen from time to time because, as you will find out, we are very passionate about what we do and we are very strong in our beliefs. As someone may have already pointed out, you will discover is that there are several ways to make a sign, and it's up to you to choose the way that works best for you. Although they appear to be $hitheads at the moment, Roger, Doug and Rick are all good people. I had the pleasure to meet Doug and Rick and I spoke with Roger on the phone.
Stick around and keep learning. This place is fun
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Welcome.. its good to see a new learner trying to do good..
But the flames are not your fault. Its the problem of testosterone poisoning among a few of the more "manly" members.
YA, know,, this is the same old debate about using an app fluid,, or not.
I use RT products. I like them alot. They made me a ton of money.
Some say will say they never need them. One said was invented as a joke. If app fluids are a joke then why do the tinters use thier special juices. I did long before I did vinyl and this juice always made a difference.
There are times when I do use RT. Like when applying large sheets of trans vinyl and do not wish to have it GRAB too soon. We all know how much that stuff costs.. And ruin just one 3 x 10 sheet and you lost a hunnert bux. ITs not worth it to me to risk ruining a $100 bux of material.
I don't care what jack says. He can say it all he wants.. IT is needed by me.. Period. IF it wasn't needed, then why was control tac invented? we all know. At least those who did a wrap or two know..
As for outgassing and bubbles on new plastic sheets or any other sheet for that matter. I do not believe it.
In 99% of the time,, Bubbles or worse yet,, pickle skin are caused by improper application techniques. PERIOD. Simply I do not beleive outgassing causes pickle skin.. PERIOD. In all the years and all the panels I've done. Never once have I had any pickle skin when the vinyl was applied in the RIGHT manner. 99% of the time it all boils down to the installer. Wrong techniques equals bubbles.
I have never used alcohol wipe downs, I have never waited more than a few minutes to apply vinyl after removing the liners, and I have never cleaned a new sheet with anything. I have observed two people applying vinyl on a sheet, and seeing one have NO pickle skin while the other has. I observed people laying vinyl down on aluminum and had pickle skin. Aluminum outgassing ? Nope.. I observed my son and one friend trying to do a panel last year, my son had no bubbles, the other guys work blistered like chicken pox.. Redone the piece , and again had blisters. I redid it and had none.. OUtgassing? not a chance.. ( the main reason in my experience is an improperly prepared squeegee tool.)
If the plastic sheets are outgassing,, then why are there NO bubbles or pickles skin under the liners.. There aren't any. I dare say its pretty tough to remove them liners at times.. YES? And, I'll say that no one here has ever seen a liner bubbled or pickle skinned. Nope. not one.. I am sure there will be someone who claims to know someone that had and bubbled liner sheet. But like the elusive snipe hunting tales no on has actualy personally seen one caught.
Like it or not, its the applicator that causes the bubbles. Not some strange outgassing excuse.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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We get the word sniper from the folks who hunted snipe.
I can't attribute any failures to outgassing, but plastics do release gasses. Come to think of it I noticed yesterday a temporary sign I did on styrene with a layer of Oracal 651 black, then a layer of Avery gold mirror doing something I've never seen before. All over the sign pretty evenly spaced half inch bubbles had appeared. It looked almost hammered. I'll post a pic tomorrow and get some feedback.
posted
And so it begins to spiral downward. Joanna asks a simple question and gets some wonderful advise on the hinged method of application. Some even took the time to create illustrations to demonstrate the process. Wonderful stuff. That's what this is suppossed to be all about.
Others mentioned the wet method of application. This is also a very popular way of applying vinyl. A professional signmaker should be familiar with both methods, and capable of choosing what method to use on the various materials and under the different conditions we encounter.
It's that simple. The rest of the stuff was completlely unecessary. Nobody ever wins these silly attempts at banging heads. Most of us longtime users can clearly see that there are a few in Letterville that don't see eye to eye, and probally never will. That's not a problem if both people agree to disagree instead of turning every post into a wizzin' contest.
I don't see a bad guy here. Just an ongoing battle of will and wits that is annoying as hell to the vast majority of us.
There are many days I feel like Jerry Springer with his analysis of that day's show. Trying to keep a few from destroying each other, and intimidating the new arrivals is my least favorite part of looking after Letterville.
Hang in there Joanna. We're just people. Somedays we can be Saints and other days we can behave like selfish brats. That includes me.
I've removed a couple posts. The day will come when I will no longer be the person who decides what goes and what stays. Years from now, I would like to think future Letterheads can come back and use our work here as a resource without having to read our insults to each other.
It's an impossible job to do in a fair manner that will please everyone. Many times I have to remove posts by friends that I know are only trying to defend me. Nothing personal, but it's my way of enforcing the third man in rule. Hey! It works in hockey.
[ May 26, 2006, 02:54 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
When will "Rapid" products become available in Australia??
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
You do have to be careful when debating these sorts of things....people's feelings and pride get hurt awfully quickly....and can heighten to unimaginable conclusions.
Case in point:
I once debated with a person on another forum how their particular products' intended use could be achieved successfully by another "inexpensive" method and I ultimately recieved emails which personally threatened me and my family with a lawsuit by the nutjob I thought I was having a rational discussion with.
I have kept screenshots and copies of these emails "just in case"....
Although that person laughably had no ground to stand on (I had my lawyer buddy from church review printed excerpts [it's nice to have friendships with lawyers] of the forum discussion and personal emails)....it still demonstrated to me that some people you meet on the internet might not be altogether "steady"....and there is a point at which the hassle of being right isn't worth it.
Threats and stalking can be legally extended to the internet and electronic correspondence.
I am in no way insinuating that occurred with anyone here, - so don't take this wrongly because I doubt that it could, as this site is comprised of only the highest calibre of people...but I do have a long memory and have made a point of educating everyone I can on my personal, time-tested alternative solutions for achieving the same desired result since my run-in with that particular wierdo. these things can happen.
As far as this debate goes....I prefer dry apps mostly....Roger has good products which I have used in the past for particular situations....but I have successfully used my own "home brew" wet application as well for 20 years.
My failure rate with "my way?" Zero.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Be a little paranoid about checking until you get super familiar with stuff. 
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