posted
I made a sign today 12"x 72"on high impact styren. they wanted it completely covered with one color and the letters cut out,... how to do it without nasty bubbles,creases ...???
posted
If it is not backlit, you may find it easier to get the background color on without cutting the lettering out. This would just allow you to concentrate on getting the large bubble-free application technique mastered first, without worrying about precise positioning. It's not that tricky, but untill you are comfortable with it, I would suggest having a piece of vinyl masked & then cut (through the mask, vinyl & release liner) to a size about 1" extra in length & 1" extra in height (or an extra 1/2" at all 4 sides)
Then I would lay it on the styrene so it is approximately centered with excess material at all 4 sides & I would tape a center hinge 36" from one end going across the 12" span of the material, taping the graphic down to the table. Then I would flip one half the vinyl over on to the other half, then starting at one end, I would remove the release liner exposing the adhesive for about 3' untill I got to the tape hinge. Here, I would cut off that half of the liner. Now, make sure the half that still has the liner is still positioned exactly right (maybe an extra bit of tape at the far corners would ensure that) & start squeegeeing right at the center with firm overlapping strokes. If you are new to this, this may be easiest with a wet application, but is also not that difficult to apply dry at 12' x 72". As you work it across to the far end, just remember to apply firm squeegee pressure & overlap your strokes. If you have a good straight undamaged squeegee, & a dust free piece of styrene, you should ba able to lay down a perfect background color. After the first half is done, remove the hinge, flip up the second half & repeat the steps going in the other direction.
If your letters were cut out, now you would be done... but positioning the thing exactly straight & centered is a little bit more work... just cutting some white letters & applying them in a second step may be a few dollars of extra material, but the additional labor is minimal & if you have any apprehension about getting it done right in one step, this is a way to make life easier sometimes. (if it is not a backlit sign & if you have the color that is needed.) I think styrene is usually white, so I thought this may be a helpful suggestion.
[ May 21, 2006, 05:24 AM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
I would do it the way Doug describes. If you're not familiar with this type of application, a few pictures might help.
I would start out by cuttin the styrene to exact size. Then I would take the graphic and trim flush to the bottom corners. The bottom corners on the graphic would align to the bottom corners on the styrene. If the graphic were slightly larger or slightly smaller than the styrene, I would make the alignment on both sides equal.
With the graphic and the styrene aligned, I would tape to the table at the bottom corners. Then I would apply a tape hinge right down the middle.
I would unfasten the tape at one of the corners, and pull the graphic back. I'm missing a step in the pictures. It's actually easiest to fold the graphic back onto itself, and then pull the release liner back to the original position, which would result in G.
It's easy to start a small tear in the release liner near the tape. Then that section of release liner can be torn free, revealing the styrene.
I would then swing the graphic back almost to it's original position, elevating it with just enough tension to keep it from tacking before I can squeegee it. Too much tension influences the way it lays down, and usually ends up with the vinyl slightly crooked. I let gravity do most of the work as I squeegee up and down from the tape hinge to the end of the graphic. I change squeegee stroke direction at the very end of the graphic to keep from getting wrinkles at the end.
I never wet app this type of thing, and I rarely have a problem with alignment.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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The few thoughts I had on the "finer points" of what could go wrong seemed too hard to describe... but now I can add to what Russ has made so clear.
The first vulnerability to error I would warn against is having problems right in the center. I always cut the release liner. Russ tears it. I'm sure that works for him, but I'd warn that when you cut a straight line, you go back to complete the second side & the liner should be easily accessible to begin removing at the center, but if the tear line is at all irregular like the exaggerated zigzag shown above, you can see how the liner could be slightly stuck in there.
The other concern I would have is that the back & even the "inside" of the liner, if it delaminates when torn, is not waxy, so if you get any non-waxy paper... even just minute stray fibers at the edge... this could be enough to result in a paper fragment stuck under the vinyl right smack in the center of your perfectly applied vinyl. (ask me how I know?)
The last point I would add to this is that if you were to do a wet application, I would avoid allowing any application fluid to contact that first bit of space by the cut liner... because water could increase the liklihood of a paper fragment disintegrating enough to get stuck on your vinyl even with a cleanly cut liner.
As for my concerns of alignment, I think the careful attention to the tension applied to the unstuck piece in progress is where this is dealt with. If you are applying that tension slightly towards yourself, &/or if you are squeegeeing with slightly more emphasis on the strokes towards yourself.. on a longer application, like the 36" in half of your sign above... you have a possibility of the vinyl stretching enough to start out in line, but gradually go off track leaving a line of copy that is not straight.
Also, remember that if the vinyl is the same size or larger then the substrate... then the tape hinge does not hold it to the styrene... only to the table, & even the only at the spots that are quite a distance apart, so you need to be sure nothing moves out of alignment as you work.
posted
Wow thank you i have been doing it wrong this whole time! that helps alot!! no one ever taught me so i just went with the way i thought was best! and yes its a back lite sign!! but that helps thank you!!
-------------------- Joanna Barnett Blackfoot, ALberta Posts: 207 | From: Nipawin | Registered: May 2006
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posted
You're right about tearing the paper Doug. It does take practice to tear the release liner without a fuzzy edge. If I get a bad edge I fix it before continuing.
The alignment is also a concern, especially if the substrate is light. There is a way to attach the substrate to the table, and still run the vinyl flush to the corners. It involves taking two pieces of tape, and sticking them together with a healthy offset. The tape stays under the substrate, rather than on top:
I can't remember where I saw this first, but it works great.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I agree with Doug when it comes to tearing. If it's a line of text, I fold the line so the crease is between the letters, and tear, but if there is no place to tear and avoid the tear being on vinyl, I take an Exacto and cut the release liner.
Make sure you use alot of pressure and keep the squeege at about 70-80 degrees. This gives the most efficient down-pressure. No offense intended at all, but most girls I've been around when they start don't put enough pressure(a couple guys too, but mostly girls). I think guys put their body mass into it. That being said one of the best vinyl people I know is a very petite girl, so don't think you can't do it.
There are different brands of squeege which I find better for different tasks. For laying vinyl, I prefer 3M gold squeeges, but for putting down app tape, I prefer the white ones that Avery gives you with a roll.
You can also hinge on the top, bottom, sides and horizontally depending on what will work best.
posted
Why is it that nobody had mentioned the very base way to mount copy straight?? Put a 1/2" wide, 2" long piece of making tape on the left and right sides of the premasked applique with 1" on the premask and the other 1" sticking off the premask out to the sides. Measure the baseline or letterning or graphic to the edges for being straight, press the masking tape down onto the substrate on both sides left and right, tear through the masking tape on both sides leaving 1/2 of each on the substrate. Turn the applique face down, remove the carrier, turn it face up and then the person on each side matches the masking tape pieces back up again. The squeegee guy tacks his end down that the other person keeps tight tension on the applique and slightly off the surface keeping his pieces of masking tape even. Lat and I do this with ALL appliques and even the 24" x 15 foot ones. When we lay the 48" x 12' (or longer) digital prints there are 4 of us holding, but we always use the same method. We NEVER mount wet at all and we never hinge. I always thought everyone knew this stuff, no?
posted
I can't believe the amount of knowledge i have learnt in the last week,... i forsure have alot to learn,.. cuz if i'm doing this wrong what else am i doing wrong!?!?! Thank you all again!
-------------------- Joanna Barnett Blackfoot, ALberta Posts: 207 | From: Nipawin | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Rosemary, I think we've been aiming at a one person application. Do you have a helper Joanna? It sure does help once things get big.
Seriously, use the search function. When I found this place, I searched more than I read the current posts. It will save you a world of frustration learning from others. Though I find the lessons only really sink in once I've screwed it up for myself.
I found pricing to be the hardest thing once I started my own business.
posted
the odd time i call in help my parents are about 25 mins away so if i know they are comin to town i try to work around them for help but not allways so i have to learn to doit by myself!!
pricing is still the biggest problem i have!
-------------------- Joanna Barnett Blackfoot, ALberta Posts: 207 | From: Nipawin | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Oh! Alone shouldn't make much difference as long as you can reach left and right at the same time, no? You just gently wiggle it left and right drawing it up from the bottom till the tape matches. Seat the right side and hold the left side up while you squeegee. I wish I could make a video thigie for here on this. I'm pretty good at working alone.
posted
Joanna..Russ presented a visual of the ideal way for one person to do what you need to do.
Doug and Dusty added some extra information that is right on.
Tim mentioned Rapid Tac and he mentioned a great product that would assist until you are comfortable with dry application.
Rosemary's method might have merit too but I won't know till I see a video or a "Russ style" visual of what she means.
I am getting very scared these days..Russ McMullin is inside my head..I know he is!!!!!! (He uses all the ideas that I thought only I used...The guy is an idea thief!!! )
Worse yet..he spends the time to work up visual displays of "our" thinking!!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Doug/Russ: Thanks for the great info! When I use the hinge method to lay down large graphics, I always seem to get bubbles along the line of the hinge. Am I squeeging (sp??) too close to the hinge?
posted
Jack..I had that prob too..I started squeeging an inch or so away from the hinge and then after doing the first side and starting the next side I could snap up the first inch or so and re-apply.
edited to rephrase..I now just lightly squeegie the first inch or so. That way I can easily snap up the "hinge area" and redo it to get rid of the bubbles.
[ May 21, 2006, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
I use a variation of Rosemary's method with good results. It works best with lots of copy rather than large areas of vinyl. Instead of removing the tape on the corner when the graphic gets pulled back, I tear it in half using the edge of the squeegee as a blade. When the release liner is torn away, I tack the graphic back into place using the tape to align it. Since the graphic is then flat on the substrate, you have to be a lot more careful with pre-tack, but I can usually get it sqeegeed down with few if any bubbles. It's really fast.
Sorry to scare you Dave. I was told this mind reading equipment I bought was undetectable. I'll have to call tech support.
My mind wanders. And that's not a good thing, 'cause it's too small to be out there alone. Posts: 3129 | From: Tooele, UT | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I do most applications with a center hinge method just as shown above.
I've found, however, that I don't necessarily use a squeegee when applying. I find my thumbs seem to work the vinyl better? Does anyone else use their thumbs with good results?
-------------------- Randy Graphic Details Promotional Merchandise Distributor South Glens Falls, NY Posts: 381 | From: South Glens Falls, NY USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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I disagree. I have been applying vinyl since 1978, and I have nothing but trouble with wet application. I have used the wet method on a surface that faces the sun, but, all in all, dry is the only way to go, (for me). But, it's not for everybody.
Wet might help a newbie, but I learned with the dry/hinge method. Since gaining experience, I have been able to install 32' Edge printed/seamed panels - dry - with very little problem.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Check my website Rick, you will probably find something you have been doing wrong .
Using Rapid Tac or TacII is not like using soap&water, its much different, you CLEAN with the application fluid (very important) and nothing else, when you understand this and a couple other tips you will be able to apply vinyl wet with perfect alignment and no bubbles and it will bond in 90 seconds( infact you will just about need a razor to get it off in just 10 minutes). People who have problems with Rapid Tac or TacII applications need to read the Q & A at my site "tech tips".
Wet applying films can and do save a multitude of time, during and after the the fact.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Randy is all thumbs--just as long as it's thumbs up! I often get things started with my thumb and then switch to a squeegee.
Joanna, email Roger Bailey with your mailing address and he will send you samples of his product line in very handy spray bottles. You might not get it in time to help with this job, but you will find his products very useful in the future.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Thank you David, and yes, I will send free samples of all 5 products.
Most large scale vinyl applications are very time consuming done dry, and very subject to problems/mistakes, folks who have learned the proper wet procedures with Rapid Products have eliminated not only the "big time factor" but have discovered that the 2 application fluids are like haveing insurence in a bottle !
They eliminate mistakes (stretched or torn vinyl, wrinkles, bubbles) and eleminate the need for a 2nd set of hands.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I'm sure your stuff works but we don't get wrinkles, tears, bubbles or anything like that and we lay huge digital graphics on lighted faces and trucks and whatever. We never work wet. I'm sure your stuff makes it easier for the guys who can't do it like we do, but its not necessary if you know how to do it right, no?
quote:Originally posted by roger bailey: Check my website Rick, you will probably find something you have been doing wrong.
Roger
I am a firm believer in using your products. A gallon of application fluid will last for years because I simply don't use it.
That being said, your comments shown above are somewhat belittling. I have been applying vinyl longer than some here have been alive. Is there room for improvment? Yes, but just because someone does it a different way dosen't make it "wrong" I am sure you didn't mean to sound arrogant, but you did. I am sure much research went into your website, but it dosen't change my method. My way works too.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
The "wet vs. dry" debate has been going on as long as the paint vs. vinyl debate, I think.
To most of us that have been applying vinyl for a while, Joanna's situation might seem like a no-brainer application. But I remember when I started out, a hunk of vinyl that was 6 feet long was HUGE. Just premasking it was a challenge, and actually applying it was gonna be insurmountable. But we all got past that.
Nowadays many, if not most can handle 4 foot wide material without batting an eyelash. (unless it is outdoors and windy)
I prefer dry applications myself, but when required or when I am nervous I still use Rapid Tac. It does the job it is supposed to do. It is like Mastercard..I don't leave home without it
I would like to think that my prefered method of installation is the best and fastest, but the truth is, if you gave the identical 3 layer logo to 5 different guys, who all had the same experience level, and told them to assemble and install??
There would probablly be 5 different approaches and 5 different application techniques and the end result would be that all 5 accomplished the task in about the same time and with the same level of quality.
BTW..I don't find Roger to be offensive or arrogant...just a guy marketing his products. And I must say he is probably the most successful merchant (in terms of getting the bang for his buck) here as a result of his regular input.
He believes in his products just like Edge users believe in their products and Versacamm users believe in theirs.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
my problem with paint is i can't draw a straight line if my life depended on it! Right now i have done 99% of my applications dry, tryed acouple times wet just didn't seem to work... but as i said still don't know the right techiques and willing to learn and try! and decide for myself once i learn! Then i will decide WET OR DRY!
Thank you for everything its all very helpful and food for thought!!
-------------------- Joanna Barnett Blackfoot, ALberta Posts: 207 | From: Nipawin | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Rick, well, I'm sorry you find me belitteling.
Don't mean to come off that way, its just that I have been laying large vinyl since 1965 (41 years now), I feel that to apply films with the simplicity and designed cleaner, you get close to perfection quality everytime and the true longivity of that film.
You always argue my opinion for removing films as well (heat lamp tree and rapid remover) now, I don't make a penny on heat lamp trees or "cheap paper towels" but I am gonna offer the info. that I believe is the most cost effeciant and the easiest and cleanest, period.
I'm sure you and many others just won't take the 3 minutes to go to my site and learn anything about wet applications , so be it, I have enough end users to keep me very happy in my biz, I mainly moniter this site and others because of my beleifs, ok and to brag about my products !!
Who knows, if you get it understood you may be saving hundreds of dollars of labor every month ??
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
When you try to flip it back to being about how "people find you", you perpetuate your error by refusing to see it. Saying you "Don't mean to come off that way" also dodges the fact that YOU ARE THAT WAY.
It is not a question of intrepretation, it is a choice you have made when you choose the words you choose. You are no idiot, & therefore nobody believes your repetative acidic barbs are convenient accidents, you attempt to discredit & minimize the comments of any respected professionals who may sway the spending habits of your mark away from putting a few more dollars in your pocket.
Sure, wet applications have there place, & Rapid Tac works great for those occassions...
...but the fact that the majority of seasoned professionals here & elsewhere do the majority of their applications dry is not because your are so full of yourself when you disparage others...
...it is simply because a wasted step is still a wasted step... and wasted money is still wasted money even if it went to a Letterville merchant.
You have every right to inform people that you have a good product that has an important place in this industry... but you have no right to attempt to deceive new sign folks looking for advice from their peers by maligning those of us who already "get close to perfect quality everytime" WITH DRY INSTALLS ...even with absolute understanding & experience with wet applications. (geez.. you make it sound like some rocket science that the seasoned pros have somehow remained unaware of )
quote:Originally posted by Doug Allan: Sure, wet applications have there place, & Rapid Tac works great for those occassions...
...but the fact that the majority of seasoned professionals here & elsewhere do the majority of their applications dry is not because your are so full of yourself when you disparage others...
Doug:
Your reply, in it's entirety is what I wanted to say, but you said it better.
Roger:
I gain nothing financially if someone uses wet or dry install, or if they buy a light tree or a steamer. You put forth the idea that "Rapid Roger is the guru of vinyl install/removal"
Since you brought it up, very few of us can afford to, (or have the space for) a body shop light tree to cart around with us on a vinyl removal job that we are likely to lose money on anyways. When it comes to convience and mobility, the steamer wins hands down. If you have a Sawasky style shop, the light tree may be the way to go. Just ease up Dude!
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Squeegeeing is squeegeeing, wet or dry. An extra step is an extra step, no? If we get 100% dead lays every time why would we spend the extra money or the time?? Oh, well. One thing I've been taught is when to gracefully withdraw. Bye!
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3484 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Dave Grundy: ...he is probably the most successful merchant (in terms of getting the bang for his buck) here as a result of his regular input.
He believes in his products just like Edge users believe in their products and Versacamm users believe in theirs.
Dave, I agree he's manifesting a lot of "bang" for his buck here, but regarding your comparison... it's too bad the users of his products are not in the lead role of promoting them here, because while most will acknowledge they have value... it's that incessant over-exaggerated "bang" from the mouthpiece that many of us could do without.
It really waters down the overall impression of any product when the claims of usefulness are trumped up & any dissent is thumped down.
posted
Its not just about squeegeeing Rosemary, the extra steps are;
1- the sign substrate has to be cleaned, clean once with Rapid Tac and paper towel (the same amount of time wet or dry).
2-measure the substrate and mark (one time with wet apply) you must also measure cut and mark again for dry.
3-spray substrate liberally,remove liner, slap down, align, squeegee, no messing with hinge and tearing liner, tapeing down here and there, worrying about getting it straight, ooops what if you do ? If your doing it wet you just lift and align again, if your doing it dry, well its toast, back to the shop and cut again.
When I go on a application job (demo) I take only; Rapid Tac,cheap paper towels, good squeegee, roll of 3/4 masking tape, tape measurer and pencil, Rapid Prep for wax etc..
I don't take; window cleaner, alcohol, exacto knife, wax and grease remover,shop rags,or another person, unless size of graphic is over6'X6'
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Why is it that nobody had mentioned the very base way to mount copy straight??![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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the fact that the majority of seasoned professionals here & elsewhere do the majority of their applications dry is not because your are so full of yourself when you disparage others...
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